Plundered tombs... i'd never play under your rules then, because as far as i am concerned... this game is a group effort, not a DM tell story and players are spectators.
exemple of reskin i did recently... i gave my cousin a yuan-ti pureblood race, but changed the poison spray to a whooping 4 more arms. but those arms wouldn't be used for attacking or defense.
literally the first thing he did, was take 6 swords to the face of a monster, i told him not to do that again, he did understand, so he decided to arm himself with 4 shields instead and 2 swords... why ? because to him it was not possible to have arms unable to attack or dedfend and so ignored me entirely. no wonder i had to boot him up from the game. and he was not the first to do that, he will not be the last.
moral of the story... this is a group game, not "my game my rules and you be spectators to my madness" if people wanted that they'd be watching movies or reading books instead.
Ooh, I appear to have touched a nerve...
You would not want to play in one of 'my' games because you like to be in control. That's fine, up to a point. I disagree with one of your points, and you instantly dismiss my arguments, and me.
Most of your posts are about you, 'your' players, 'your' table. You don't agree? Here's a couple of examples from your last post : "i gave my cousin a yuan-ti pureblood race" " ignored me entirely. no wonder i had to boot him up from the game." And the classic..... "literally true information i have accumulated over the 20 years of D&D that i played"
You GAVE your cousin a PC?. You booted a player because he disagreed with you? You have 20 years experience, so you must know better than everyone else? Son, I'd be willing to bet that half the people on this site have 30+ years of experience playing this game.
moral of the story... this is a group game, not "my game my rules and you be spectators to my madness" if people wanted that they'd be watching movies or reading books instead.
i gave my cousin a yuan-ti pureblood race, but changed the poison spray to a whooping 4 more arms. but those arms wouldn't be used for attacking or defense.
literally the first thing he did, was take 6 swords to the face of a monster, i told him not to do that again, he did understand, so he decided to arm himself with 4 shields instead and 2 swords... why ? because to him it was not possible to have arms unable to attack or dedfend and so ignored me entirely. no wonder i had to boot him up from the game. and he was not the first to do that, he will not be the last.
Wait... you took a feature of a race that had an obvious function, turned into one that had an obvious function that you refused to allow to be used and didn't have any other noteworthy function so it was effectively the same as just taking away a racial feature with no compensation, and you think the player was the one creating a problem?
Yes, I know you said "don't use these arms in any way that really matters" and the player didn't hear you or was asking "why the heck not?" with their using of the arms in a way that mattered - but the situation literally would not have happened if you hadn't said "you're character has six arms" in the first place, and you wouldn't have to have booted a player over what sounds like nothing and reads to at least one outsider as a deliberate trap you set for a player.
Aside from traps for DMs and players, still my opinion of the incorporation of a devil/demon soul in a humanoid body is that it should have no significant effect on gameplay. Role play it should be fun but not extremely restricting. The devil/demon must have been incredibly weakened by the whole ordeal of being bound to a mortal coil, I see this as a good enough reason to say that most basic fiend detection abilities or spells would be only moderately effective. Feel free to disagree but I personally feel that doing anything more than that would probably be problematic on a session to session basis, whereas someone scrutinizing them more closely or for a long period of time would likely be able to detect the devil within. That portion would allow for some fun plot events, (whether it is someone friendly to devils or not) and fun RP without constantly having to run away anytime a level one paladin decides to use their divine senses.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
i gave my cousin a yuan-ti pureblood race, but changed the poison spray to a whooping 4 more arms. but those arms wouldn't be used for attacking or defense.
literally the first thing he did, was take 6 swords to the face of a monster, i told him not to do that again, he did understand, so he decided to arm himself with 4 shields instead and 2 swords... why ? because to him it was not possible to have arms unable to attack or dedfend and so ignored me entirely. no wonder i had to boot him up from the game. and he was not the first to do that, he will not be the last.
Wait... you took a feature of a race that had an obvious function, turned into one that had an obvious function that you refused to allow to be used and didn't have any other noteworthy function so it was effectively the same as just taking away a racial feature with no compensation, and you think the player was the one creating a problem?
Yes, I know you said "don't use these arms in any way that really matters" and the player didn't hear you or was asking "why the heck not?" with their using of the arms in a way that mattered - but the situation literally would not have happened if you hadn't said "you're character has six arms" in the first place, and you wouldn't have to have booted a player over what sounds like nothing and reads to at least one outsider as a deliberate trap you set for a player.
Wow... So basically you think arms are only good at defense and attacking... These arms could use items. These arms could hold something down even grapple people. But yet you and my cousin apparently thinks arms are only good at holding weapons and shields.
Just for context... He wanted to play a marrilith. Look it up and tell me i didnt make the right call. But hey... Its all good in the end.
As for the devil sealing... My only problem with these things is that players expect it to have significance. If you just fluff it then it may end up as none to them.
Ill take my two tiefling players. They are literally the childs of a human and a duke. While fluffing it is cool and all... They do expect to have some devilish powers of some sort. Luckily tiefling are exactly that. But since they came from a duke they expect more. It is ridiculous to me that they shouldnt have anything else when their father is that powerful to begin with. Thats why when they told me they wanted the ability to go back to him if they die. I was ok with it. Because there was consequences to that act.
On the other end of the spectrum... My cousin wanted a marrilith. Large size, 6 arms thus 6 attacks per turn and most of all infinite reactions. I compromised by saying take yuan ti they literally are marrilith basic form. Fluff it to snake tail. Remove poison spray cantrip cause marrilith dont have that change it to arms that cant be used to attack. Eventually i allowed shields simply because i stated that only one shield per character was allowed. He chose fighter so at level 20 hed have almost the same number of attacks. He was ok with it until the first fight where he literally ignored me and proceeded in doing 4 attacks at level 1. Because yes they started level 1. I re explained to him. He still didnt wamt any of the compromised all he wanted was the monster from the book. Which is cr 12 by the way.
@plundered tomb...
You are the one who said you dont give any choice to your players... Not me... I preffer players help me create a story then have them go through my story obediently.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Ok, so I wanted to distract from the argument, but alas... earwax...
Scenario: Player wants an incredibly powerful creature as his PC, DM gives him an unbalanced trait for a playable race. Player attempts to use the unbalanced trait to the maximum, DM says no you can't have free multi-attack. Player tries to turn the character into an unhittable tank, DM still does not like this use of the unbalanced trait. Argument of some sort ensues, and player is kicked out. DM does not like the repercussions to the unbalanced trait he GAVE to the player.
Yes, D&D is a game of a covenant. An agreement between DMs and players, that neither side tries to break the game. But I have to admit when you give a person a flamethrower, should you be surprised when they burn down the house? Yes, it is the DMs fault. Yes, it is the players fault. Covenants go both ways. My opinion as a person is that you made a mistake in giving an unbalanced trait to the player and not expecting abuse. The player had all these extra arms and hands so he tried to find a use for them.
All I wanted to do was give the OP some cool ideas as to how to avoid breaking the game unintentionally. People started giving ideas and when their ideas began to be criticized they became unhappy. I just want OP to have fun in their game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
You are the one who said you dont give any choice to your players... Not me... I preffer players help me create a story then have them go through my story obediently.
Your reading comprehension matches your writing skills I see.
I said: "Ultimately, players and their characters are just pawns of the DM. The illusion of freewill is something YOU give them." I have already shown the ways in which you don't allow them any freewill.
You claim :"I preffer players help me create a story then have them go through my story obediently."
"A planet of play things We dance on the strings Of powers we cannot perceive..."
Neil Peart.
I am also confused as to how long your cousin had this character with 6 arms before complaining; in one post you claim that "literally the first thing he did, was take 6 swords to the face of a monster" and then in the post above you say " He was ok with it until the first fight where he literally ignored me and proceeded in doing 4 attacks at level 1" You could have handled this by only allowing the first attack to count, or giving -5 to hit to each subsequent attack, but at the cost of a bonus action. You could have allowed him to attack with all four attacks, but ruled that it took 4 rounds to achieve. You could explain that even for a skilled swordsman, controlling two weapons with the same finesse as one is almost impossible - and I say that with 20+years of being a fencing instructor behind me. :D It's a lot easier with unarmed attacks - yeah, I started Karate at about the same age.
When you allowed your cousin to hold 5 shields, did you allow him to break more rules and claim the shield bonus multiple times?
When I DM, I have control and the players have choices. Maybe not always the choices they want, but if they could just do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, there would be no real consequence to any of their actions. Freewill, even for DMs is an illusion - I could attack them with dragons beyond their ability to combat, bury them in unavoidable sandstorms, strip them of possessions, cripple them, reduce them to level 1 or subject them to any of ten thousand other arbitrary fates. But that would be my tenure as DM finished.
Ig you must know... 7 sessions. And honestly you made so much assumptions of me in your post. So yeah... Moving on...
Hero... I didnt give him a flamethrower... We literally created that character in 8 hours because i had to explain to him everything and get into an agreement. I even told him 5 times to create another character if he was not happy. I even tryed to help him get something interesting. That was balanced...
Anyway moving on.
Sorry op i wanted to give you an exemple of players wanting more then the dm allows and it seem it derailed into whatever this shit was all about.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
One of my players, who's not so new to the game but has a decent amount of knowledge of the game's lore. He asks me if he can play Tiefling Warlock who has a devil sharing his body as a mutual relationship in order for both to survive. But one in control is the devil not the humanoid. So now the devil is more or less stuck in the body of the Tiefling and experiencing the life of a normal being whilst still providing powers to the body itself (Thus the pact powers). He claims that the devil is slowly regaining power through (leveling up) normally.
When i asked why not play it normally he said he wants to play something different rather than the normal the devil/demon within. I told him to hold off on that thought while i think about it. So now i come here to see your opinions.
Note: The devil is meant to be stuck for the end of time inside the body of the Tiefling but the devil does not know that and thinks that there is a way to separate them without risking dying.
TBH you can quite easily make it so that it doesn't effect the rules while still making it an interesting part of the character, the story they're participating in, or even a story arc. For example, the demon being inside the player's character doesn't have to affect the rules at all, but the player can choose to start a story arc where they attempt to separate themselves from the demon.
As for character death and things like Detect Evil, I agree with what has been said before: If the PC dies, the demon returns to another plane (The Nine Hells, etc), even if the player is subsequently resurrected. Leading on from this, it could be an interesting potential session or story arc for the demon to re-enter the Teifling after being separated as a result of the PC dying (and being resurrected). As for the Detect Evil and the like, my answer depends on the alignment of the 'soul'. For example - if the soul of the Teifling is something other than Evil (e.g. Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Good), then maybe Detect Evil might get 'mixed messages' with regards to the Teifling.
@DnDPaladin - I honestly think you made a silly decision allowing such a thing without severe restrictions. You handed a player something that had the potential to break the game with no restrictions and - surprise surprise - it broke the game. It has 6 arm? You should have said "Well - you can only have either two weapons, a weapon and a shield, or two shields. The other four arms must do something else." Ultimately you and your player failed to arrive at a PC that wasn't broken as hell, and then you failed again when you didn't either nerf the PC or tell them (No - You can't play this anymore. It's breaking the game. Sorry." Now - If your cousin was completely unwilling to compromise, then they are a bad and disrespectful player in which case he is also at fault for not going "Wait wait wait.... this is broken and my DM is hinting at changing, so maybe I should."
At the end of the day, if you couldn't come to a compromise with the player as well as achieve something that is actually balance, then you have a responsibility to everyone at the table (including yourself) to say "No - you can't play this. Maybe you should play a character that is more balanced, even if it's just a relatively vanilla race like something out of the PHB." As I said - You have a responsibility to all involved and at least every now and then you have to use the "My Table: My rules!" card in order to run a better game.
Just for context... He wanted to play a marrilith. Look it up and tell me i didnt make the right call.
Alright, cool. I've looked it up, read it in detail... and I ready to give you my feedback on your booting a player from your table: You made the wrong call.
You are the one that put the disruptive element into your game, that's a full-on bad call no matter why you made it or how nicely or persistently a player asked you to make it. A sampling of good calls that you could have made are as follows:
Tell the player there really isn't any way for them to play an actual marilith, ask why that was what they wanted, and if they didn't specifically want the parts that just aren't going to work find some other way to get them a character that fills those desires - and if they did just want the specific things that aren't workable, you say "No."
Use the actual rules of the game regarding how many attacks a character can make (i.e. one per attack action, one as a bonus action if your weapons fulfill the requirements for two weapon fighting, and potentially additional attacks from Extra Attack if their class has it which can be made with whatever arm you happen to feel like), and even apply a similar rule to how many shields can be effectively used (i.e. one) - and the player, since the DM is the arbiter of the rules, can't possibly break these rules like you claim your player somehow managed to do (I mean, at my table at least, I answer players not getting how the rules work with explanation as to how the rules work, not booting them from the table).
Let the player play an actual marilith. Have the other players also pick out monsters of similar awesomeness to play, achieving balance by fairness of options rather than by throwing someone out because you gave them the choice between what they wanted to play (but not really), and what you think they should play, and they chose "wrong."
Also...
These arms could hold something down even grapple people.
This shows how incredibly unclear your line was drawn, and why your now former player (who hopefully doesn't put the bad experience they had on the game itself, rather than on your DMing choices, because it'd be a real bummer to me if you made this person not just a former player at your table but also a former player, period.) didn't understand what you thought they understood. Grappling is a thing you do as part of an attack action in place of an attack, so if the arms aren't supposed to be able to be used to attack they logically wouldn't be allowed to grapple either.
A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn’t tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Ig you must know... 7 sessions. And honestly you made so much assumptions of me in your post. So yeah... Moving on...
I'm still confused.
You said "
exemple of reskin i did recently... i gave my cousin a yuan-ti pureblood race, but changed the poison spray to a whooping 4 more arms. but those arms wouldn't be used for attacking or defense.
literally the first thing he did, was take 6 swords to the face of a monster..."
So he went seven session where he literally did nothing?
I have a feeling you don't understand the word "literally." Or "reskin"
I also don't understand why you wouldn't get a player that you had to "explain to him everything", (so a complete beginner) to start with a level 1 fighter or cleric or wizard or...err, I dunno, one of the other classes in the PHB. If necessary, you should have run a session or two just for him, rather than spending 8 hours (literally apparently) creating a character. You don't teach a toddler to ride a bike by putting them on a Harley and saying "Off you go - the go fast twiddler is on the right."
This thread has "derailed into whatever this s*** was all about" because you have given advice that goes against years of accumulated experience. To back up this advice you have given anecdotal evidence of where your advice has gone to Hell (Not literally, it has stayed on the forums.)
Which assumptions about you did I make that were wrong - I would like to be able to apologise for any offence.
Dungeons and Dragons plays perfectly well in its most vanilla format. A good DM can run literally hundreds of hours of exciting games without the need to change any of the rules* or add any form of homebrew classes, magic items, monsters etc.....and for new players, that would pretty much be my advice.
*sometimes you have to adjudicate a situation not covered in the rules, but that is not the same as changing an existing rule.
I've played games where tiefling warlocks were reskinned as devils and demons. I also played a tiefling up to level 17, got True Polymorph, transformed my PC into an actual devil (mostly for the immortality and to start a warlock academy of my PC's own), then promptly used True Polymorph to start creating a personal army of devils.
I've played a moon druid and got permission to use a dragon base before (scaling up in CR to appropriate levels) and played as if a dragon.
I have a half-elf bard that is a banished fairy princess from the fey wild. Originally a lore bard, but talking to the DM about swapping to the new glamour bard.
Warforged transmuter or alchemist is another type I want to play. That's basically a golem monster.
I see nothing wrong with playing as a monster in any of this.
-----
As for the OP's game? I'd play it by ear. If there's something that keeps devils out, then play it up. If a devotion paladin smites you, put on that extra damage. And so on. On the other hand, don't be afraid to pull out some allies. If the pc has a criminal background, then make the criminal contacts be imps and fiends and cultists tied to the nine hells. Just because you're banished doesn't mean you're no longer part of the hierarchy.
The player wants to be a devil. So, do it, along with everything that goes with it. Have fun. Offer redemption plots as the forces of good try to angle the devil to become something other than a devil - why not become an angel or something? Offer the rewards of Good!
That is a very good point, redemption options could actually be some fun story lines (whether or not the player wants to be redeemed). Whether it is an offer from a sagelike cleric or further down the line a somewhat more impressive offer comes from an angel. Its never too late.
I cannot recall if it was mentioned how they came to be bound to a mortal form but are there devilish enemies he made in the past that might still seek him? Or a particularly vengeful angel that would have him pay for his wrongs from 200 years ago.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Exactly. The key is to figure out what kind of story the player is interested in having, and then weaving it into the overarching storyline. There is a lot of potential here.
wow, so much fails... Mathias, my cousin was the only one wanting to play amonster. and i tryed that many many many times, in my gaming life. you know giving them monsters from the books... thats never enough, the players at some points wants that monster to level, others will cry out that certain monsters they choose would be much weaker then the one the guy at level 20 chose, there are tons of problems that this is actually doing. if none of you have ever done this then i urge you to try it and see for yourself all the problem that will arise. exemples, my cousin plays a marrilith, another player who loves dragons plays an ancient red dragon, another pone plays a mind flayer, another one plays a lycanthrope... sure all fine, they all play what they like... but... lycanthrope is CR4, marrilith is CR12, ancient red dragon is CR24 and mind flayer is CR8 or so, i don't remember that one. there is already a problem there.
as for the evil part, thats why 50% of the player base plays without any alignment whatsoever. i'm part of those that thinks the alignment is a good reference, but it is not in depth enough to tell you anything. mostly for people, killing is an evil act and thats all there is to it. that is very far from the truth, alignment needs more depth. exemple your devils are evil, how the hell do they react with friends, betrayal, never be socially capable at all because they will always do things to betray just for the sake of betraying ? you as a character, would you react the same way with your best friends then you would with your employer ? there are tons of morality issues that alignment do not encompass, and that was always a source of dispute in the gaming community.
i take alignment as they are, general source of expectation, not must abide by line by line things. and jeremy crawford himself said that alignment are general guidelines not must follow elements. Mike Mearls himself doesn't even follow alignment. and chris perkins says the same as jeremy. if the alignment was to be followed as closely as that, then no paladins would ever go beyond level 1, as they would always lose their powers almost every fights. that's also why 5e has gone away from alignments, there is no spells now that works with alignment except those who hides it. the reason for that was that alignment was not designed to be a mechanic right from the get go.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
and i tried that many many many times, in my gaming life. you know giving them monsters from the books... that's never enough, the players at some points wants that monster to level, others will cry out that certain monsters they choose would be much weaker then the one the guy at level 20 chose, there are tons of problems that this is actually doing. if none of you have ever done this then i urge you to try it and see for yourself all the problem that will arise. examples, my cousin plays a marilith, another player who loves dragons plays an ancient red dragon, another one plays a mind flayer, another one plays a lycanthrope... sure all fine, they all play what they like... but... lycanthrope is CR4, marilith is CR12, ancient red dragon is CR24 and mind flayer is CR8 or so, i don't remember that one. there is already a problem there.
It's very simple; you just pick a CR and edit the stat blocks so the PCs are all close to that CR, with the ones with have more utility (like flying or telepathy) being lower CR and the ones that can't use their best set of attacks every combat being higher CR.
That's actually a pretty easy situation. Give the dragon player a CR 10 young red dragon, bump the lycanthrope PC up to around CR 10, and give the mind flayer a little something extra. Mariliths are CR 16. Give the dragon player a CR 17 adult red dragon, bump the mind flayer up to around CR 17, and bump the lycanthrope (what kind of lycanthrope) up to around CR 16.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Shapechange is only on ancient dragons thats what he wanted. But i knew youd say this... So why would i bother trying to explain something you never tried from what you said. Go ahead try it yourself.... Youll get it.
To the op... Yeah sorry again.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
That's fine, up to a point.
I disagree with one of your points, and you instantly dismiss my arguments, and me.
You don't agree? Here's a couple of examples from your last post :
"i gave my cousin a yuan-ti pureblood race"
" ignored me entirely. no wonder i had to boot him up from the game."
And the classic.....
"literally true information i have accumulated over the 20 years of D&D that i played"
Son, I'd be willing to bet that half the people on this site have 30+ years of experience playing this game.
this is a group game, not "my game my rules and you be spectators to my madness" if people wanted that they'd be watching movies or reading books instead.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Wait... you took a feature of a race that had an obvious function, turned into one that had an obvious function that you refused to allow to be used and didn't have any other noteworthy function so it was effectively the same as just taking away a racial feature with no compensation, and you think the player was the one creating a problem?
Yes, I know you said "don't use these arms in any way that really matters" and the player didn't hear you or was asking "why the heck not?" with their using of the arms in a way that mattered - but the situation literally would not have happened if you hadn't said "you're character has six arms" in the first place, and you wouldn't have to have booted a player over what sounds like nothing and reads to at least one outsider as a deliberate trap you set for a player.
Aside from traps for DMs and players, still my opinion of the incorporation of a devil/demon soul in a humanoid body is that it should have no significant effect on gameplay. Role play it should be fun but not extremely restricting. The devil/demon must have been incredibly weakened by the whole ordeal of being bound to a mortal coil, I see this as a good enough reason to say that most basic fiend detection abilities or spells would be only moderately effective. Feel free to disagree but I personally feel that doing anything more than that would probably be problematic on a session to session basis, whereas someone scrutinizing them more closely or for a long period of time would likely be able to detect the devil within. That portion would allow for some fun plot events, (whether it is someone friendly to devils or not) and fun RP without constantly having to run away anytime a level one paladin decides to use their divine senses.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Ok, so I wanted to distract from the argument, but alas... earwax...
Scenario: Player wants an incredibly powerful creature as his PC, DM gives him an unbalanced trait for a playable race. Player attempts to use the unbalanced trait to the maximum, DM says no you can't have free multi-attack. Player tries to turn the character into an unhittable tank, DM still does not like this use of the unbalanced trait. Argument of some sort ensues, and player is kicked out. DM does not like the repercussions to the unbalanced trait he GAVE to the player.
Yes, D&D is a game of a covenant. An agreement between DMs and players, that neither side tries to break the game. But I have to admit when you give a person a flamethrower, should you be surprised when they burn down the house? Yes, it is the DMs fault. Yes, it is the players fault. Covenants go both ways. My opinion as a person is that you made a mistake in giving an unbalanced trait to the player and not expecting abuse. The player had all these extra arms and hands so he tried to find a use for them.
All I wanted to do was give the OP some cool ideas as to how to avoid breaking the game unintentionally. People started giving ideas and when their ideas began to be criticized they became unhappy. I just want OP to have fun in their game.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I have already shown the ways in which you don't allow them any freewill.
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive..."
You could have handled this by only allowing the first attack to count, or giving -5 to hit to each subsequent attack, but at the cost of a bonus action. You could have allowed him to attack with all four attacks, but ruled that it took 4 rounds to achieve. You could explain that even for a skilled swordsman, controlling two weapons with the same finesse as one is almost impossible - and I say that with 20+years of being a fencing instructor behind me. :D It's a lot easier with unarmed attacks - yeah, I started Karate at about the same age.
Freewill, even for DMs is an illusion - I could attack them with dragons beyond their ability to combat, bury them in unavoidable sandstorms, strip them of possessions, cripple them, reduce them to level 1 or subject them to any of ten thousand other arbitrary fates.
But that would be my tenure as DM finished.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Ig you must know... 7 sessions. And honestly you made so much assumptions of me in your post. So yeah... Moving on...
Hero... I didnt give him a flamethrower... We literally created that character in 8 hours because i had to explain to him everything and get into an agreement. I even told him 5 times to create another character if he was not happy. I even tryed to help him get something interesting. That was balanced...
Anyway moving on.
Sorry op i wanted to give you an exemple of players wanting more then the dm allows and it seem it derailed into whatever this shit was all about.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Alright, cool. I've looked it up, read it in detail... and I ready to give you my feedback on your booting a player from your table: You made the wrong call.
You are the one that put the disruptive element into your game, that's a full-on bad call no matter why you made it or how nicely or persistently a player asked you to make it. A sampling of good calls that you could have made are as follows:
Also...
This shows how incredibly unclear your line was drawn, and why your now former player (who hopefully doesn't put the bad experience they had on the game itself, rather than on your DMing choices, because it'd be a real bummer to me if you made this person not just a former player at your table but also a former player, period.) didn't understand what you thought they understood. Grappling is a thing you do as part of an attack action in place of an attack, so if the arms aren't supposed to be able to be used to attack they logically wouldn't be allowed to grapple either."Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
exemple of reskin i did recently...
i gave my cousin a yuan-ti pureblood race, but changed the poison spray to a whooping 4 more arms. but those arms wouldn't be used for attacking or defense.
literally the first thing he did, was take 6 swords to the face of a monster..."
So he went seven session where he literally did nothing?
I have a feeling you don't understand the word "literally."
Or "reskin"
I also don't understand why you wouldn't get a player that you had to "explain to him everything", (so a complete beginner) to start with a level 1 fighter or cleric or wizard or...err, I dunno, one of the other classes in the PHB. If necessary, you should have run a session or two just for him, rather than spending 8 hours (literally apparently) creating a character.
You don't teach a toddler to ride a bike by putting them on a Harley and saying "Off you go - the go fast twiddler is on the right."
This thread has "derailed into whatever this s*** was all about" because you have given advice that goes against years of accumulated experience. To back up this advice you have given anecdotal evidence of where your advice has gone to Hell (Not literally, it has stayed on the forums.)
Which assumptions about you did I make that were wrong - I would like to be able to apologise for any offence.
Dungeons and Dragons plays perfectly well in its most vanilla format. A good DM can run literally hundreds of hours of exciting games without the need to change any of the rules* or add any form of homebrew classes, magic items, monsters etc.....and for new players, that would pretty much be my advice.
*sometimes you have to adjudicate a situation not covered in the rules, but that is not the same as changing an existing rule.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
I've played games where tiefling warlocks were reskinned as devils and demons. I also played a tiefling up to level 17, got True Polymorph, transformed my PC into an actual devil (mostly for the immortality and to start a warlock academy of my PC's own), then promptly used True Polymorph to start creating a personal army of devils.
I've played a moon druid and got permission to use a dragon base before (scaling up in CR to appropriate levels) and played as if a dragon.
I have a half-elf bard that is a banished fairy princess from the fey wild. Originally a lore bard, but talking to the DM about swapping to the new glamour bard.
Warforged transmuter or alchemist is another type I want to play. That's basically a golem monster.
I see nothing wrong with playing as a monster in any of this.
-----
As for the OP's game? I'd play it by ear. If there's something that keeps devils out, then play it up. If a devotion paladin smites you, put on that extra damage. And so on. On the other hand, don't be afraid to pull out some allies. If the pc has a criminal background, then make the criminal contacts be imps and fiends and cultists tied to the nine hells. Just because you're banished doesn't mean you're no longer part of the hierarchy.
The player wants to be a devil. So, do it, along with everything that goes with it. Have fun. Offer redemption plots as the forces of good try to angle the devil to become something other than a devil - why not become an angel or something? Offer the rewards of Good!
That is a very good point, redemption options could actually be some fun story lines (whether or not the player wants to be redeemed). Whether it is an offer from a sagelike cleric or further down the line a somewhat more impressive offer comes from an angel. Its never too late.
I cannot recall if it was mentioned how they came to be bound to a mortal form but are there devilish enemies he made in the past that might still seek him? Or a particularly vengeful angel that would have him pay for his wrongs from 200 years ago.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Exactly. The key is to figure out what kind of story the player is interested in having, and then weaving it into the overarching storyline. There is a lot of potential here.
wow, so much fails...
Mathias, my cousin was the only one wanting to play amonster. and i tryed that many many many times, in my gaming life. you know giving them monsters from the books... thats never enough, the players at some points wants that monster to level, others will cry out that certain monsters they choose would be much weaker then the one the guy at level 20 chose, there are tons of problems that this is actually doing. if none of you have ever done this then i urge you to try it and see for yourself all the problem that will arise. exemples, my cousin plays a marrilith, another player who loves dragons plays an ancient red dragon, another pone plays a mind flayer, another one plays a lycanthrope... sure all fine, they all play what they like... but... lycanthrope is CR4, marrilith is CR12, ancient red dragon is CR24 and mind flayer is CR8 or so, i don't remember that one. there is already a problem there.
as for the evil part, thats why 50% of the player base plays without any alignment whatsoever. i'm part of those that thinks the alignment is a good reference, but it is not in depth enough to tell you anything. mostly for people, killing is an evil act and thats all there is to it. that is very far from the truth, alignment needs more depth. exemple your devils are evil, how the hell do they react with friends, betrayal, never be socially capable at all because they will always do things to betray just for the sake of betraying ? you as a character, would you react the same way with your best friends then you would with your employer ? there are tons of morality issues that alignment do not encompass, and that was always a source of dispute in the gaming community.
i take alignment as they are, general source of expectation, not must abide by line by line things. and jeremy crawford himself said that alignment are general guidelines not must follow elements. Mike Mearls himself doesn't even follow alignment. and chris perkins says the same as jeremy. if the alignment was to be followed as closely as that, then no paladins would ever go beyond level 1, as they would always lose their powers almost every fights. that's also why 5e has gone away from alignments, there is no spells now that works with alignment except those who hides it. the reason for that was that alignment was not designed to be a mechanic right from the get go.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Why are we talking about alignment all the sudden here? It has nothing to do with the subject
Give the dragon player a CR 10 young red dragon, bump the lycanthrope PC up to around CR 10, and give the mind flayer a little something extra.Mariliths are CR 16. Give the dragon player a CR 17 adult red dragon, bump the mind flayer up to around CR 17, and bump the lycanthrope (what kind of lycanthrope) up to around CR 16."Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
The topic has gone... so far off the rails...
Sorry OP.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Shapechange is only on ancient dragons thats what he wanted. But i knew youd say this... So why would i bother trying to explain something you never tried from what you said. Go ahead try it yourself.... Youll get it.
To the op... Yeah sorry again.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)