I think you forgot that zombies don't have souls.It's not slavery without any concious though involved.
Guy, C'mon. Let's not raise the temperature and say silly stuff to each other. A ghost is nothing BUT a soul. A specter, a shadow, a lich, mummies, all of these things have/are souls.
You say demons don't enslave. Okay. The difference between the way Demogorgon treats his warlocks and Asmodeus treats his warlocks is what? You, as a DM, write me out a sentence or two about how you play that relationship.
Devils codify the relationship with a contract; demons have to be in constant supervision with their slaves because they don't use contracts. You can only enforce your will as far as the length of the whip or the chain. Therefore you constantly have to suspect your underlings of treachery and scheme to replace your superiors, if only to ensure your own survival. Hypothetically, devils - being lawful creatures - have access to impartial 3rd parties who mediate disputes between themselves arising from those contracts (or: LAW). Among demons, it's the old-fashioned way. You feel out who of your fellow slaves (at which level) you can trust and then you all mob and kill the other guys or they kill you.
And, by the by, what D&D society, known for its institutional slavery, am I best describing here? Who put together a society that was as simultaneously massively complex and subtle as Tsarist Russia; and subject to collapse and upheaval with every passing comment between two rival aristocrats? IMO, I'm describing the drow, which brings me back where I started. How did the drow become slavers, which they've been since, probably, the A-Series of first edition? Was it in their elven nature? I doubt it. I think it was Lolth's corrupting nature forced on to them on pain of death.
What I keep trying to convey to the OP is that the chaos part in a chaotic evil world can operate at a surprisingly wide scale. A chaotic evil society can be a lot bigger than one would think, if it has the right boss. If a balrog becomes undisputed ruler of a crystal sphere, from the point of view of his human slaves at the top of the pyramid, things will seem stable and prosperous for generations; but no level of society is going to be more stable than, say, an individual family. It will always be shot through with the threat of betrayal and death, because that's the EVIL part. So the OP doesn't have to make their world some fiery mountain of skulls with terminators on the prowl and the last survivors eating shoes in the sewers. They could write The Sopranos instead, if they wanted.
like trying to build a purple pyramid so it touches the one point of light, only to see the pyramid sink after every ten layers are built, if those anguished cries are music to a particular demon with the clout to orchestrate that, why not? If a demon draws the souls of mathematicians into a laboratory where the mathematicians must study symmetrical rectangular obelisks, seemed micro abysses filled with the stuff of stars, until the mathematicians soul is consumed by the obelisk and is in further anguish consumed as the obelisks are scattered about existence as weird harbingers, why not?
These are wild. Did you come up with these? I really like them.
You say demons don't enslave. Okay. The difference between the way Demogorgon treats his warlocks and Asmodeus treats his warlocks is what? You, as a DM, write me out a sentence or two about how you play that relationship.
Easy. I actually do distill multiple editions' lore differentiating the two major players in the lower planes for my tables this way: Most devils seduce and bargain to possess a soul. Demons outright assault to contort and choke the soul to the demon's ends.
Devils codify the relationship with a contract; demons have to be in constant supervision with their slaves because they don't use contracts. You can only enforce your will as far as the length of the whip or the chain. Therefore you constantly have to suspect your underlings of treachery and scheme to replace your superiors, if only to ensure your own survival. Hypothetically, devils - being lawful creatures - have access to impartial 3rd parties who mediate disputes between themselves arising from those contracts (or: LAW). Among demons, it's the old-fashioned way. You feel out who of your fellow slaves (at which level) you can trust and then you all mob and kill the other guys or they kill you.
You really ought to read the viral/infection/infestation language used to describe Demons in Mord's and prior books. You're trying to ascribe anthropomorphic "societal" traits to the Abysss, where there is none according to the lore. A civilization spun out of Lloth's will doesn't necessarily provide great insight into Lloth's mind or aesthetic. It just shows how Elven minds contort to achieve their master's will. It's unclear whether any Drow really know Lloth's endgame.
like trying to build a purple pyramid so it touches the one point of light, only to see the pyramid sink after every ten layers are built, if those anguished cries are music to a particular demon with the clout to orchestrate that, why not? If a demon draws the souls of mathematicians into a laboratory where the mathematicians must study symmetrical rectangular obelisks, seemed micro abysses filled with the stuff of stars, until the mathematicians soul is consumed by the obelisk and is in further anguish consumed as the obelisks are scattered about existence as weird harbingers, why not?
These are wild. Did you come up with these? I really like them.
The fallen capitol in my homebrew world Abandominium looks like (or is) the Luxor Casino and Resort in Vegas (big black pyramid, big black rectangular building, I sort of want to book a suite and play a game there someday for maximum irony). There's even an asphalt paved area where loyalists to the abdicated ruler have pavilions set up for the rally to retake the pyramid if the abdicator ever returns. There are also ... vendors. Yes, the resistance to the opportunistic regimes that have arisen since the rightful leader's departure ... live in a parking lot, in the desert.
I think pyramids are cool and demons putting mortal souls to work on an incomprehensible task aside from Sisyphean nonprogress seems like a cool image if the baddies ever fully take over. The obelisks, riffing off 2001 and the germ Clark had for that in his short story "The Sentinel", where it wasn't clear whether humanity discovering the Monolith was a good thing. I always liked the "my god, it's full of stars" revelation, so that's probably somewhere in my multiverses arc where while yes there are "nourishing" stars who pierce the void with lights that give mortal souls hope, there are also many many more unfeeling stars whose light asks questions over mortal souls' significance. If my any of my parties ever learn Deep Speech and interrogates a Mind Flayer or Aboleth, or find a Beholder who will level with them they'll learn the aberations' perspective is something like "We're not 'invading' anything. This 'reality' you conceive of isn't supposed to be." And somewhere Fraz-Urb'luu says "Yas!" and feels validated.
I have changed my mind, (who got stuck with the old one, I wonder?) and now agree with all the people who said the Demons just kill everyone they can. Now my problem is that I can't figure out why any people are left. The Demon Lords would find it nearly impossible to keep all those Demons under control, and maintaining strict control over *anything* is not a trait associated with Demons.
The reason there are still humans left is simple: Devils.
The Blood War between the devils and demons that has been raging for an eternity has kept the majority of both parties' attention fixated on each other in a precarious balance. If one side were to gain too much of an advantage over the other then the war would certainly spill over into the Material Plane either in the form of diabolical fascistic order (if the Devils were to win) or wanton bloodlust and destruction (if the Demons were to win). Because the two factions are so opposed though, they're locked into the Blood War and cannot turn their attention towards conquering the multiverse until their enemy is vanquished. That isn't to say that there's not the odd incursion helped along by mortal cultists here or there, but for the most part the Abyss has to remain fully committed to destroying the Nine Hells or else risk being destroyed themselves.
There's a whole chapter on this in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and it's pretty interesting how D&D cosmology pits the Lawful (devils) and Chaotic (demons) sides of the Evil spectrum against each other in a way that's actually vital for the survival of the multiverse.
I have changed my mind, (who got stuck with the old one, I wonder?) and now agree with all the people who said the Demons just kill everyone they can. Now my problem is that I can't figure out why any people are left. The Demon Lords would find it nearly impossible to keep all those Demons under control, and maintaining strict control over *anything* is not a trait associated with Demons.
The reason there are still humans left is simple: Devils.
The Blood War between the devils and demons that has been raging for an eternity has kept the majority of both parties' attention fixated on each other in a precarious balance. If one side were to gain too much of an advantage over the other then the war would certainly spill over into the Material Plane either in the form of diabolical fascistic order (if the Devils were to win) or wanton bloodlust and destruction (if the Demons were to win). Because the two factions are so opposed though, they're locked into the Blood War and cannot turn their attention towards conquering the multiverse until their enemy is vanquished. That isn't to say that there's not the odd incursion helped along by mortal cultists here or there, but for the most part the Abyss has to remain fully committed to destroying the Nine Hells or else risk being destroyed themselves.
There's a whole chapter on this in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and it's pretty interesting how D&D cosmology pits the Lawful (devils) and Chaotic (demons) sides of the Evil spectrum against each other in a way that's actually vital for the survival of the multiverse.
I think the question under discusson is "what of humans in a world where Demonic incursion has taken over" not whether such incursions and demonic triumphs are possible. Yes, the Blood War allows a sort of detente between (just) two varieties of evil. If one side were to win the consequences would be catastrophic to the entire planar structure of the multiverse. Mord's as has been discussed here, explains exactly how a demonic incursion into a prime material world works, and implies such incursions happen a lot and do succeed at times. The Blood War doesn't stop that. It reduces the frequency of it. Conversely Rime of the Frostmaiden tells you exactly what will start to happen in the North and perhaps beyond if the Devil's machinations aren't stopped, while the Blood War goes on. The Arch Devils all contribute to the war efforts from their respective levels, but the Blood War only fully consumes one Arch Devil, because that's her job and why she's an Arch Devil in the first place. I imagine some Demon Lords see the Blood War as but one front, a boondoggle one, of their respective desires to encroach everywhere.
The Blood War is a constant, but both the Hells and Abyss making efforts to encroach into Prime Material worlds is still very much a thing, allowing the OP's proposed game world to exist without significant deviation from precedent lore.
I have changed my mind, (who got stuck with the old one, I wonder?) and now agree with all the people who said the Demons just kill everyone they can. Now my problem is that I can't figure out why any people are left. The Demon Lords would find it nearly impossible to keep all those Demons under control, and maintaining strict control over *anything* is not a trait associated with Demons.
An organized process of annihilation is also not a demonic thing. If the number of demons isn't too large, people will survive by the simple expedient of running away and/or running faster than the guy next to them.
I have changed my mind, (who got stuck with the old one, I wonder?) and now agree with all the people who said the Demons just kill everyone they can. Now my problem is that I can't figure out why any people are left. The Demon Lords would find it nearly impossible to keep all those Demons under control, and maintaining strict control over *anything* is not a trait associated with Demons.
An organized process of annihilation is also not a demonic thing. If the number of demons isn't too large, people will survive by the simple expedient of running away and/or running faster than the guy next to them.
True enough, but the scale implied by a world totally overrun by Demons suggests that there are so many of them that the gods themselves are not getting involved for some reason. This seems unlikely if there are any left around. Running away means giving up on what remains of civilization, making things like food, water, and shelter very much a problem. With the Demons running around slaying at will and at random people could survive on their own for a while, but the moment they were discovered they would be dead, and I'd think the Demons would spread out a lot. They aren't even fond of each-other. They don't eat, I don't think they need to sleep, and there isn't anything opposing them. They have a lot of free time to look for strays.
We aren't given a whole lot of information to go on. Perhaps, as this is a *post* apocalypse setting, most of the Demons are actually gone by now, and it's just the occasional Demon that shows up, wreaks havoc, kills anyone it can catch, and wanders off again when bored. I had not considered that until now. I was thinking conquering hordes that outnumbered the people.
Edit. Just checked. The Original Poster never came back, so we can't know what they had in mind.
Demons do corrupt people... but not through contracts and temptations. No, the Abyss corrupts people through exposure. Demons in 5th edition are a bit Lovecraftian - they warp the very reality and souls of people around them by their mere presence. Lolth, Orcus, and a few of the more mind-flayer-ish demon lords are known to have their own slaves, though this isn't necessarily the chains-and-whip slavery people are most familiar with.
Demon cultists are generally people that have been exposed to demonic influences long enough that they're no longer in their right minds. They've been warped and twisted by the chaotic energies into something other. These people are effectively brain damaged by the Abyss, so don't expect much in the way of sanity.
Just wanted to throw out there, coincidentally one of the sponsors of last night Critical Role finale was Petersen Games who was promoting their new 5e Sourcebook Planet Apocalypse. I don't know much about it besides the promotional text and Petersen's rep. Planet Apocalypse evidently was a board game first, but has adapted the concept to D&D.
Sandy Petersen is also credited as one of the developers of the story behind the Doom games, was one of the main designers behind the Call of Cthulhu role playing game, so has some serious bona fides about horrific creatures overwhelming a world. The aesthetic of the sourcebook seems very "metal" and could be instructive for your own world design if you don't just adopt it outright.
It's got my curious, though I'm going to see if there are any reviews of the PDF before getting it myself, but it looks promising. At minimum based on the sample pages it's a gorgeous book if hellscapes and its overlords and post apocalyptic PC survivors are your thing.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Apologies to everyone for the late response, the general story idea is that the devils/demons/fiends have basically obliterated the lands and the inhabitants are now either dead, enslaved and running and hiding as a resistance. Think Terminator but with demons etc.
Yeah, that's pretty much what Planet Apocalypse is, not that Planet Apocalypse owns the idea, it's just there's some quality thinking behind it (but that's just my familiarity with the studio and not having seen the product beyond sample pages).
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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Guy, C'mon. Let's not raise the temperature and say silly stuff to each other. A ghost is nothing BUT a soul. A specter, a shadow, a lich, mummies, all of these things have/are souls.
You say demons don't enslave. Okay. The difference between the way Demogorgon treats his warlocks and Asmodeus treats his warlocks is what? You, as a DM, write me out a sentence or two about how you play that relationship.
Devils codify the relationship with a contract; demons have to be in constant supervision with their slaves because they don't use contracts. You can only enforce your will as far as the length of the whip or the chain. Therefore you constantly have to suspect your underlings of treachery and scheme to replace your superiors, if only to ensure your own survival. Hypothetically, devils - being lawful creatures - have access to impartial 3rd parties who mediate disputes between themselves arising from those contracts (or: LAW). Among demons, it's the old-fashioned way. You feel out who of your fellow slaves (at which level) you can trust and then you all mob and kill the other guys or they kill you.
And, by the by, what D&D society, known for its institutional slavery, am I best describing here? Who put together a society that was as simultaneously massively complex and subtle as Tsarist Russia; and subject to collapse and upheaval with every passing comment between two rival aristocrats? IMO, I'm describing the drow, which brings me back where I started. How did the drow become slavers, which they've been since, probably, the A-Series of first edition? Was it in their elven nature? I doubt it. I think it was Lolth's corrupting nature forced on to them on pain of death.
What I keep trying to convey to the OP is that the chaos part in a chaotic evil world can operate at a surprisingly wide scale. A chaotic evil society can be a lot bigger than one would think, if it has the right boss. If a balrog becomes undisputed ruler of a crystal sphere, from the point of view of his human slaves at the top of the pyramid, things will seem stable and prosperous for generations; but no level of society is going to be more stable than, say, an individual family. It will always be shot through with the threat of betrayal and death, because that's the EVIL part. So the OP doesn't have to make their world some fiery mountain of skulls with terminators on the prowl and the last survivors eating shoes in the sewers. They could write The Sopranos instead, if they wanted.
These are wild. Did you come up with these? I really like them.
Easy. I actually do distill multiple editions' lore differentiating the two major players in the lower planes for my tables this way: Most devils seduce and bargain to possess a soul. Demons outright assault to contort and choke the soul to the demon's ends.
You really ought to read the viral/infection/infestation language used to describe Demons in Mord's and prior books. You're trying to ascribe anthropomorphic "societal" traits to the Abysss, where there is none according to the lore. A civilization spun out of Lloth's will doesn't necessarily provide great insight into Lloth's mind or aesthetic. It just shows how Elven minds contort to achieve their master's will. It's unclear whether any Drow really know Lloth's endgame.
The fallen capitol in my homebrew world Abandominium looks like (or is) the Luxor Casino and Resort in Vegas (big black pyramid, big black rectangular building, I sort of want to book a suite and play a game there someday for maximum irony). There's even an asphalt paved area where loyalists to the abdicated ruler have pavilions set up for the rally to retake the pyramid if the abdicator ever returns. There are also ... vendors. Yes, the resistance to the opportunistic regimes that have arisen since the rightful leader's departure ... live in a parking lot, in the desert.
I think pyramids are cool and demons putting mortal souls to work on an incomprehensible task aside from Sisyphean nonprogress seems like a cool image if the baddies ever fully take over. The obelisks, riffing off 2001 and the germ Clark had for that in his short story "The Sentinel", where it wasn't clear whether humanity discovering the Monolith was a good thing. I always liked the "my god, it's full of stars" revelation, so that's probably somewhere in my multiverses arc where while yes there are "nourishing" stars who pierce the void with lights that give mortal souls hope, there are also many many more unfeeling stars whose light asks questions over mortal souls' significance. If my any of my parties ever learn Deep Speech and interrogates a Mind Flayer or Aboleth, or find a Beholder who will level with them they'll learn the aberations' perspective is something like "We're not 'invading' anything. This 'reality' you conceive of isn't supposed to be." And somewhere Fraz-Urb'luu says "Yas!" and feels validated.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The reason there are still humans left is simple: Devils.
The Blood War between the devils and demons that has been raging for an eternity has kept the majority of both parties' attention fixated on each other in a precarious balance. If one side were to gain too much of an advantage over the other then the war would certainly spill over into the Material Plane either in the form of diabolical fascistic order (if the Devils were to win) or wanton bloodlust and destruction (if the Demons were to win). Because the two factions are so opposed though, they're locked into the Blood War and cannot turn their attention towards conquering the multiverse until their enemy is vanquished. That isn't to say that there's not the odd incursion helped along by mortal cultists here or there, but for the most part the Abyss has to remain fully committed to destroying the Nine Hells or else risk being destroyed themselves.
There's a whole chapter on this in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, and it's pretty interesting how D&D cosmology pits the Lawful (devils) and Chaotic (demons) sides of the Evil spectrum against each other in a way that's actually vital for the survival of the multiverse.
I think the question under discusson is "what of humans in a world where Demonic incursion has taken over" not whether such incursions and demonic triumphs are possible. Yes, the Blood War allows a sort of detente between (just) two varieties of evil. If one side were to win the consequences would be catastrophic to the entire planar structure of the multiverse. Mord's as has been discussed here, explains exactly how a demonic incursion into a prime material world works, and implies such incursions happen a lot and do succeed at times. The Blood War doesn't stop that. It reduces the frequency of it. Conversely Rime of the Frostmaiden tells you exactly what will start to happen in the North and perhaps beyond if the Devil's machinations aren't stopped, while the Blood War goes on. The Arch Devils all contribute to the war efforts from their respective levels, but the Blood War only fully consumes one Arch Devil, because that's her job and why she's an Arch Devil in the first place. I imagine some Demon Lords see the Blood War as but one front, a boondoggle one, of their respective desires to encroach everywhere.
The Blood War is a constant, but both the Hells and Abyss making efforts to encroach into Prime Material worlds is still very much a thing, allowing the OP's proposed game world to exist without significant deviation from precedent lore.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
An organized process of annihilation is also not a demonic thing. If the number of demons isn't too large, people will survive by the simple expedient of running away and/or running faster than the guy next to them.
Get inspiration from Anime. I've seen many shows where the setting is "demons have overrun the world."
True enough, but the scale implied by a world totally overrun by Demons suggests that there are so many of them that the gods themselves are not getting involved for some reason. This seems unlikely if there are any left around. Running away means giving up on what remains of civilization, making things like food, water, and shelter very much a problem. With the Demons running around slaying at will and at random people could survive on their own for a while, but the moment they were discovered they would be dead, and I'd think the Demons would spread out a lot. They aren't even fond of each-other. They don't eat, I don't think they need to sleep, and there isn't anything opposing them. They have a lot of free time to look for strays.
We aren't given a whole lot of information to go on. Perhaps, as this is a *post* apocalypse setting, most of the Demons are actually gone by now, and it's just the occasional Demon that shows up, wreaks havoc, kills anyone it can catch, and wanders off again when bored. I had not considered that until now. I was thinking conquering hordes that outnumbered the people.
Edit. Just checked. The Original Poster never came back, so we can't know what they had in mind.
<Insert clever signature here>
Demons do corrupt people... but not through contracts and temptations. No, the Abyss corrupts people through exposure. Demons in 5th edition are a bit Lovecraftian - they warp the very reality and souls of people around them by their mere presence. Lolth, Orcus, and a few of the more mind-flayer-ish demon lords are known to have their own slaves, though this isn't necessarily the chains-and-whip slavery people are most familiar with.
Demon cultists are generally people that have been exposed to demonic influences long enough that they're no longer in their right minds. They've been warped and twisted by the chaotic energies into something other. These people are effectively brain damaged by the Abyss, so don't expect much in the way of sanity.
Just wanted to throw out there, coincidentally one of the sponsors of last night Critical Role finale was Petersen Games who was promoting their new 5e Sourcebook Planet Apocalypse. I don't know much about it besides the promotional text and Petersen's rep. Planet Apocalypse evidently was a board game first, but has adapted the concept to D&D.
Sandy Petersen is also credited as one of the developers of the story behind the Doom games, was one of the main designers behind the Call of Cthulhu role playing game, so has some serious bona fides about horrific creatures overwhelming a world. The aesthetic of the sourcebook seems very "metal" and could be instructive for your own world design if you don't just adopt it outright.
It's got my curious, though I'm going to see if there are any reviews of the PDF before getting it myself, but it looks promising. At minimum based on the sample pages it's a gorgeous book if hellscapes and its overlords and post apocalyptic PC survivors are your thing.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Apologies to everyone for the late response, the general story idea is that the devils/demons/fiends have basically obliterated the lands and the inhabitants are now either dead, enslaved and running and hiding as a resistance. Think Terminator but with demons etc.
Yeah, that's pretty much what Planet Apocalypse is, not that Planet Apocalypse owns the idea, it's just there's some quality thinking behind it (but that's just my familiarity with the studio and not having seen the product beyond sample pages).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.