Starting the first few sessions to a new campaign and one of my players has been egging me on to run an Orcish potionmaker and "scientist," but we've been hitting a lot of impasses and butting heads about how much they should be allowed to do. At first we discussed the Alchemist Artificer as a class, but they felt the options were too limited and geared more towards an enchanter than the kind of alchemy they wanted, so we decided to switch to Transmutation Wizard and let XGE rules on potionmaking and item crafting handle a lot of the elements of actually making things via alchemy.
But said player is locked in with the idea of making their own homebrew potions and items that I keep fearing will be way too overpowered, as well as applying knowledge of real world science that I frankly can't keep up with and account for. Example in our last session was that I was challenging the party for clever solutions to surviving in the desert without water so that they would prioritize finding a source of water/civilization, since I didn't want them wandering around aimlessly and had places to be. Our eager scientist used the Minor Alchemy feature to transmute a dried log into iron at sunset to collect the water from transpiration during evening cooling on its surface. It was the only kind of solution that the entire party could think of to try to help out and we ruled that it worked well enough, but I'm concerned that it might set a precedent about problem solving in the future. I'm not upset that the problem was solved, but moreso that I tried reading up on the science of it afterwards and it all has gone way over my head; I haven't been able to find any evidence of it being a legitimate thing. I'm not concerned about my player "cheating me" at the table or anything by making up mumbojumbo science or anything, but I'm more concerned about not being able to understand and account for some of these things in game.
Said player has also talked extensively about making a long table of experimental elixirs based off of the table presented in this homebrew and then some, but part of me is worried now because there are A LOT of utilities and solutions they wish to have immediately on hand it seems. I'm starting to get really concerned that, if I allow so many of these options along with the power of a normal full caster with a slew of spells and slots to spend, I may not be able to challenge the party as well. I'm especially concerned with how I should rule while playing in regards to these scientific solutions; I've explained to them that I would much rather prefer them to think in terms of magic than science for my own sanity and understanding (i.e. I would rather reward the player the heart of a firenewt so they take the time to create a flask of "alchemist's lava" rather than letting them freely make napalm and thermite from an obscure piece of real-world chemistry that I'm unaware of).
Long story short, I'm deathly afraid of enabling my player here to go over my head with a lot of this stuff, especially when they're citing scientific solutions that I can't exactly follow, and I'm looking for a system of compromise to appease them on their eagerness to craft and create while also being something that I can wrap my head around and keep in check. I don't want to hand them a catalog full of answers, but I do want them to keep being inspired and pursue their creative urges. Does anybody have any insight on how I can make sure that I keep control of this at the table but don't end up being a killjoy either?
If you feel you have a good enough grasp on balance I'd allow the player to suggest some homebrew potions with the caveat: if it does become overpowered it's either rebalanced or gone. Also, stress to the player that you're putting in a lot of time already and that they shouldn't suggest a huge amount of homebrew at once. As for using real-world science, decide if it would make sense for an intelligent person in medieval society to know how to do that and if not say no. I wouldn't allow a massive table of elixirs in any game because it is too easy to accidentally get something game-breaking and checking every option takes a while; I'd limit the player to a d20 table of elixir options if I allowed it all. Hope this helped.
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call me Anna or Kerns, (she/her), usually a DM, lgbtq+ friendly
Downtime. When the characters are in town for a week or so between adventures, let them work on a set number (subject to change) of elixirs. Those things take time to brew, after all! More powerful elixirs might take several weeks. They'd take up the downtime, and require an Intelligence (Alchemist's Tools) check at a fairly low DC. And they'd cost money: I'd say level 25 gp for a first level spell effect, 75 for a second, 150 for a third, etc, would be fair. Maybe give them fun local "quests" to buy, trade, or find rare ingredients for each one.
Meanwhile, be sure to give the other characters fun downtime options! Maybe the fighter can bet on himself in a tavern brawl, the rogue can try to burgle a noble's safe, or the cleric can become a local hero through charity. Encourage them to come up with ideas of their own.
And as for the magic/science thing, just be honest and firm with them: you need to keep the game balanced to keep it fun, and you don't want to become Einstein, so not everything that would work in reality can work here. They might whine or be a jerk, but just stand your ground and end the conversation, don't even try to argue. You're being more than reasonable.
Don't allow that homebrew without a decent amount of modifications. I already read a bit of it and you can create a potion from 10 GP many of which are absolutely broken. This subclass is also an absolute info dump as well. As a DM I'd ask for simplification of this subclass as well. I'm not going to read 50 different effects as a DM many of which are gamebreaking and I'd have to suggest changes on all of them.
I'll think of ways to fix this subclass for you but the initial impression is 50-150 gp per potion as well as a ton of potion rebalancing.
I feel like we've had enough conversation and dialogue about this topic to be able to agree that this is a tricky balance thing, but I think we're both dedicated to the idea of making it work at least, so there's some mutual respect there. It's hard to figure out what needs to be given more love vs. seeing what can already actually be achieved with a class. For example, I'm trying to reassess the list of elixirs I've made so far and say "okay does this need to be on the list of things to make more accessible to this wizard, or can this wizard already pick this up in some other way and just flavor their casting to be a little more alchemical?" But I'd rather not accidentally give them access to everything and anything as to make sure that the level of access is even with the rest of the group (Paladin, Barbarian, and Warlock).
I think the concept of running standard alchemy and crafting over downtime like suggested in XGE is the direction I'd prefer to pull things in to minimize how much has to be homebrewed, but I know they're seeking more "on the fly" solutions as well that I'm considering asking to be flavored or solved with what is capable and known with the class as a base. It does just feel dangerous to give such a MASSIVE toolbox to this one player who is already taking a class that is known for having vast toolboxes already when the rest of the party is begging to be given things that make them useful in other ways.
And as for the magic/science thing, just be honest and firm with them: you need to keep the game balanced to keep it fun, and you don't want to become Einstein, so not everything that would work in reality can work here. They might whine or be a jerk, but just stand your ground and end the conversation, don't even try to argue. You're being more than reasonable.
This is still definitely the struggle and the juggle I feel- making sure that they understand that this isn't just about validity, but also just general sensibility and my own sanity. It's also really difficult because there are some things in my world that are made rational with science (i.e. trains, firearms, arcane technology, etc.), but a lot of is is handwaving and the majority is rooted in fantasy still. It's hard to allow them to feel like the smart alchemist they want to be while keeping them in line with their more traditional background, all while respecting the potential of the civilization they come from as a whole (we have orc society written somewhat differently in our world, but it still remains that you see a lot of tribal cultures and traditional alchemists/healers at most- not necessarily Einsteins like you said). It's hard as a DM to ask your players to limit themselves sometimes, but I wish there was an easier way to discuss this topic and really figure out where to compromise these desires to be the crafty but scrappy wizard they desire while keeping the balance of the game in mind.
(also Nano bless your soul, bless all of y'alls souls- you guys are my heroes ;<; thank you for the validation and the support lol)
I feel like we've had enough conversation and dialogue about this topic to be able to agree that this is a tricky balance thing, but I think we're both dedicated to the idea of making it work at least, so there's some mutual respect there. It's hard to figure out what needs to be given more love vs. seeing what can already actually be achieved with a class. For example, I'm trying to reassess the list of elixirs I've made so far and say "okay does this need to be on the list of things to make more accessible to this wizard, or can this wizard already pick this up in some other way and just flavor their casting to be a little more alchemical?" But I'd rather not accidentally give them access to everything and anything as to make sure that the level of access is even with the rest of the group (Paladin, Barbarian, and Warlock).
I think the concept of running standard alchemy and crafting over downtime like suggested in XGE is the direction I'd prefer to pull things in to minimize how much has to be homebrewed, but I know they're seeking more "on the fly" solutions as well that I'm considering asking to be flavored or solved with what is capable and known with the class as a base. It does just feel dangerous to give such a MASSIVE toolbox to this one player who is already taking a class that is known for having vast toolboxes already when the rest of the party is begging to be given things that make them useful in other ways.
And as for the magic/science thing, just be honest and firm with them: you need to keep the game balanced to keep it fun, and you don't want to become Einstein, so not everything that would work in reality can work here. They might whine or be a jerk, but just stand your ground and end the conversation, don't even try to argue. You're being more than reasonable.
This is still definitely the struggle and the juggle I feel- making sure that they understand that this isn't just about validity, but also just general sensibility and my own sanity. It's also really difficult because there are some things in my world that are made rational with science (i.e. trains, firearms, arcane technology, etc.), but a lot of is is handwaving and the majority is rooted in fantasy still. It's hard to allow them to feel like the smart alchemist they want to be while keeping them in line with their more traditional background, all while respecting the potential of the civilization they come from as a whole (we have orc society written somewhat differently in our world, but it still remains that you see a lot of tribal cultures and traditional alchemists/healers at most- not necessarily Einsteins like you said). It's hard as a DM to ask your players to limit themselves sometimes, but I wish there was an easier way to discuss this topic and really figure out where to compromise these desires to be the crafty but scrappy wizard they desire while keeping the balance of the game in mind.
(also Nano bless your soul, bless all of y'alls souls- you guys are my heroes ;<; thank you for the validation and the support lol)
Alright I've figured out how I'm gonna do this. Do you think your player would be cool with alchemy being a feat? I have a somewhat simplistic (although a bit complex for a feat) idea on how to do this.
I always try to stay away from real world science, bringing it into play involves waaaay too much metagaming. The player knows how the physics behind something works, because they heard about it in school or wherever. But how would the character possibly know to try the thing? If the character is doing something that's never been done before in that world, they are literally inventing things and processes, and making discoveries. Now certainly, someone with ann18-20 int is going to be able to think of things no one had before, but its not something they really do every day.
What if you do something like an int save? If he makes the save, his character can invent the thing, but if not, its beyond them. Setting the DC will be the tricky part, of course, but that could be a start.
And I'd really stay away from much homebrewing for alchemy. There used to be a rule about potion crafting (maybe there still is) that it was limited to mimicking spells of level 3 and below. (also, I'd add with a range of self or touch or something, no fireball in a bottle) So they can brew up basically single use spells of limited power. Then you have the spell rules so you know the effect is going to be fairly well balanced. And you can use crafting rules (in particular exotic ingredients) to allow yourself to limit how many they make. That potion of fly will need the feather of a giant eagle, and then you can control how often the character can acquire such a feather. And magic is tricky. It has to be an authentic item, a transmuted version will not work.
I think that a big thing that I need to clarify with this player is the concept that IRL knowledge translating to in-game knowledge is metagaming and isn't really kosher at this table just because of the things that it might enable. Or, at least that there needs to be some level of control on whether their character knows/is capable of something or not- be it by limited resources, limited precedence, or just limited skill/experimentation. We have discussed at least limiting creations to knowing the specific formulas for certain magic items/potions, so I think that's at least a starting point; if they want to make more unique things, they might have to study/find a formula for such a thing before just magically snapping their fingers and inventing it on the fly.
I would not allow that homebrew list of potions. What I would do is ...
1) use the crafting system from Xanathar's Guide for regular potions, including requiring a formula, but allow the character to create formula's using their proficiency with an alchemy set. DC to create those is based on the rarity of the potion with at least a week of downtime required to formulate the recipe.
2) for more freeform, on the fly solutions allow the use of an alchemy set to be applied to problems that would normally require other skills or tools, at an increased time increment. A locked door that would normally take thieves tools and one action? You can attempt to bypass it with the alchemy set and one minute of work at the same DC as long as you can explain how you do it. A crime scene that would normally take an Investigation roll and one minute can be cased with an alchemy set and one hour of work. Etc ... maaaaybe give the alchemy set something like 5 charges and then require them to spend gold to restock their alchemy set at the original price of the set.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I didn't even consider boiling things down to just a standard tool check- not a bad idea at all. Measuring how much "chemical resources" were available for the creation of some of these things was also something I was dreading, so boiling it down to making alchemist's tools the equivalent of a problem-solving kit like a healer's kit is the equivalent of a medical issue with charges or pieces in it that are consumed is a useful direction to move in.
And in regards to creating HB potion formulas, I think the best way to determine rarity would probably just be trying to figure out what kind of spell/existing item it equates best to and determining how much more rare it ought to be from there. Rarity is always a tricky thing, but I definitely think it has to be an important part of these conversations with the player moving forward so they don't mistakenly get it in their heads that they can make something Very Rare for the price of something Uncommon and then get disappointed with themselves when I say no.
Alright I made my attempt on an alchemy feat with a healthy balance of randomness but also some control over your alchemy! It's a bit lengthy for a feat but it's nothing compared to the D100 table + abilities that the subclass had. Note that I haven't entirely balanced this yet so it may be a bit unbalanced but nowhere close to that crazy wizard subclass.
(Sorry if the link doesn't work, but then you'd have to read what I put in the spoiler or copy paste what I put in the spoiler into a homebrewery document.)
### Alchemical Adept *Prerequisite: Intelligence 13 or higher or the alchemist artificer specialist*
You have learned the ways of alchemy to create potions which create effects akin to spells. You gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies.
Also, choose 3 cantrips and 1 1st level spell in the conjuration, evocation, and transmutation schools of magic from the artificer and wizard spell lists. You can also choose cantrips and spells for the 1st level spell that you know or you have prepared when you take this feat. You can spend 1 hour of time to do research, which you can use to switch out one cantrip or the 1st level spell. At 5th level you can replace the 1st level spell with 2nd level spells you know or have prepared, a 3rd level spell at 9th level, 4th at 13th level, and 5th at 17th level.
You can spend 10 minutes of time or an action to make a potion using your alchemist's supplies by spending 10 gp worth of ingredients which are consumed. Roll on the table to decide what potion you end up with. Also if you spend an hour of time of more on the potion, you can spend 10 gp worth of potion ingredients to reroll on the table which will add an extra 10 minutes of time on making the potion. ##### Potions | 1d6 |Potion created | |:----:|:-----------------------------------------------------:| | 1 | Reroll on the table if you spent 10 minutes or more on making the potion. Otherwise, the potion explodes and you and any creatures within 5 feet of you must make a DC 10 dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 force damage or half the amount on a failed save.| | 2 | You can supply and extra 20 gp worth of ingredients in order to create a potion which can heal. If you decide not to supply the ingredients reroll. If you do, you create a potion which heals 2d4 + 2 hit points. You can also supply extra materials which increases the healing by 1d4 +1 for every extra 10 gp of ingredients you spend.| | 3 | Your potion has the effects of the 1st cantrip you chose. | | 4 | Your potion has the effects of the 2nd cantrip you chose. | | 5 | Your potion has the effects of the 3rd cantrip you chose. | | 6 | You can supply and extra 10 gp worth of ingredients in order to create a potion which has the effects of the non cantrip spell you chose. For every level above 1st, you must spend an extra 20 gp of ingredients to successfully make the potion. If you decide not to supply the extra ingredients, reroll on the table.| When you make a potion, choose if it is a thrown or self potion. A self potion you can use an action to use up the potion and get the potion's effects. A potion which deals damage must be a thrown potion. When using a thrown potion and the spell is an area of effect spell, you throw the potion up to 30 feet as an action, and the point of origin is where the flask landed. An attack roll spell uses an attack roll as an action to throw using strength, dexterity, or intelligence in which you throw the potion up to 30 feet.
Your intelligence is your spellcasting modifier in terms of spell save DC and spellcasting ability.
I didn't even consider boiling things down to just a standard tool check- not a bad idea at all. Measuring how much "chemical resources" were available for the creation of some of these things was also something I was dreading, so boiling it down to making alchemist's tools the equivalent of a problem-solving kit like a healer's kit is the equivalent of a medical issue with charges or pieces in it that are consumed is a useful direction to move in.
I'm glad you liked it! I think tool proficiencies need more love. They're a cool way for characters to customize their skillset without having to take a feat or multiclass. Be a little stringent maybe, I don't think I would allow an alchemy kit to bypass something like jumping over a pit. A Strength check to break down a door? Ok I can see some judiciously applied acid accomplish that.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ok so I have a similar situation I can hopefully use to help your situation. In my case the player is an artificer, Battlesmith and he has a long list of inventions he wants to come up with, not all magical, a lot of them using science and technology to solve problems.
We have sat down together and agreed, first of all, the level of science and technology that is known in the world. The player accepts that this is not the modern world, but also it is a world of magic and gods. The player has accepted that ultimately I have the final say on if his character knows certain scientific principles. From there we then talk through each invention he wants to make, he will sketch out a rough design of how it would work and together we will think about how, in a magical universe, fantastical elements might be used. For instance he wanted to make a device that acted a bit like a cattle prod, a long pole that delivers a shock of electricity that might temporarily paralyse. We determined a couple of ways of doing this, and I identified rare materials that might be able to help. I then set a price and a DC for building the device once the materials are collected.
When the player is then ready to do the building a combination of Tinkerer, Alchemist or other relevant skill rolls will be required. Based on the roll the device might be completed, delayed or broken and needed to start over, materials lost.
I allow the same with potions etc, a player can suggest what they want the potion to do and I will then determine if it is possible, how hard it is to make, what exotic or rare ingredients are necessary and how long it will take to create. I then set a DC based on all of that.
My advice to you is to try and do this the same way, in terms of in game "scientific solutions" explain to the player that Player knowledge does not auto equate to character knowledge. Ultimately if a scientific theory is too complicated for you to understand then you need to question is it something that in game will be known. Now would a character with experience in the dessert know that a cold metal surface collects moisture and can be a way to gather water, maybe. But would someone from a non dessert background know this, no matter how "scientifically minded" they are.
Another thing to remember is that a low level character is not a fully fledged developed character, they are at the start of a journey so they shouldn't expect to know everything, they are learning and discovering and, by their very nature, an adventurer has less time to study, do research and learn.
There is I think here a case for you to gently explain to the player that there character doesn't know everything and, even if they have spent time in a university or school of magic, as an Orc they do not have the long life of an elf to say, I spent 150 years studying scientific theory as a young elf. There needs to be a sense of realism here about what they know and what they still need to learn. By all means allow them in citys and towns to find books and research in down time. I have had a character i played who for an hour before every long rest spent time reading whatever book they where studying.
Also science doesn't have to be true in your setting if you don't want it to be. The world could run on magical principle instead of physics. Atoms and molecules and germs don't need to exist in a fantasy world just because they exist in ours.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Thank y'all so much for all of the solutions you've been offering- it's been great help to figure out how to approach this issue! I think the trickiest part of it is trying to get them to suspend their disbelief and let me be the one to educate them, if that makes sense. I.e. rather than letting them be the one to school me on real world science, I should be the one trying to guide them on a journey and give them new things to discover and make revelations about putting towards some sort of use. That sort of feels true and in line with the sort of XGE crafting systems already in the game at hand, whereas these other solutions they've tried to propose are more like real-world or video game crafting systems which frankly just... don't hold up in D&D as much.
I think I also need to get more comfortable with the idea of setting higher DCs for things as well. I think I'm too inclined to go with the flow of "10 ain't a single-digit number, so certainly it isn't a failure; if it ain't a failure, it MUST be a success, right?" But a lot of these out-of-the-box ideas ought to be things that, even with exceptional skill, really ought to take more time, thought, and effort.
I think it might also just help them to sit down with them and really hash out how some of the things in this world work and agree on a level of technology like some of you have mentioned. I.e. "no there aren't TVs, but there are crystal balls which act kinda like them if you wanted to count that," but also "no there's not rocket science or quantum physics in this universe, just alchemist's fire and planar theory." I think that I would also be far more willing to allow more impressive effects from potions or magic items upon the use of rare ingredients and allow "common ingredients" to be associated with the concepts behind standard material components in casting (i.e. iron fillings can be flavored somehow in Enlarge/Reduce based on some chemical reaction?).
Real world information is essentially useless in a fantasy game. I wouldn't let anyone apply their real world knowledge in my game unless I understood it clearly myself. People are always trying to bend the rules. They want historical weapons, armor and gear that the game may have once had, but is now just a memory.
If they want to use Real World Alchemy, tell them that is absolutely fine! Go right ahead! You know what Real World Alchemy was able to do? Make some of the things a Healer's Kit can. Antitoxins and remedies for the symptoms of diseases. Anything else? Nope. Were are talking about the real world here. No transmuting anything into anything else. No potions that do anything other than help remove the Poisoned condition, or remedy the symptoms of a given disease. Only real world diseases at that. The DMG doesn't list any real ones, and most cannot be cured here in the real world.
If they don't want to be an Artificer Alchemist, if they don't want to follow the suggestions from Xanathar's, and they keep insisting on a pile of homebrew you don't like, what that player is doing is abusing you and your game. I seems unlikely the other players would stand for it unless you let them do it themselves. I surely wouldn't.
(As for that silliness about "transpiration", near as I understand it, that would only get a few drops of water, not enough for a single mouthful.)
Okay so this person is basically trying to use real world physics to educate you about your own campaign setting? Bruh. And BTW he's/she's using "science" to explain why he/she should lay a blatantly magical subclass about magic potions he made? That doesn't make sense. None of the effects on his table except like 1 that I read are remotely close to science. He's/She's not trying to argue about what's realistic, he's/she's arguing to try to get an in game advantage. Is a dragon's breath potion "realistic"? Is a mana potion "realistic"? No it isn't.
Plus it's your magical world. Heck some physics might work differently. I've dealt with a guy who's tried to use "realism" for absolute bs and unrealistic advantages and I dread having to DM for that person. I'd recommend if even when you solve this character creation issue if this person tries to use "realism" to get advantages once the game starts you shut that down quickly.
Sorry if this post is aggressive the player just sounds like a person who I'd hate to DM for. I may be misinterpreting some things and overreacting but it reminds me of some past D&D horror stories I've had.
The support is appreciated all around, and for what it's worth we've discussed these sorta things at length together and tried to find compromises often. Long story short, this is a long-going campaign that we break into "seasons" with new characters each year, and we're moving into our fifth season- so the world is VERY well-established. This player only just entered the group last season, and they're definitely still adjusting to the type of campaign we play (more narrative rather than mechanical in some cases, but still tryna have an even mix). We try to hash things out and find compromises on these sort of things, but it's definitely a challenge. I.e., they came into our campaign wanting to try out Mystic and when that ended up being too broken even for us (we're pretty loose with rules so it was a bit of a shocker to have the powerhouse of Mystic shredding through everything lol) switched to Druid, but we had a lot of issues about character and character choices. It was all a lot, but I'd like to hope we're past it at least.
They're definitely a player that has expressed a level of discomfort in leaning too heavily into the odds of things, which personally I... strongly disagree with in a game of statistics and random chance when it comes to rolling dice...?? They're very much NOT a "high risk high reward" sort of player and have a lot of issues on things like how they spend their resources (i.e. not wanting to consume potions or spell slots often without knowing if there'll be a way to get a return on them). In retrospect, I definitely see signs of them trying to gain statistical advantages or mechanical comforts to lessen the odds of failure or probable difficulty at all, but I think it's less of "I want to powergame" and more of "I'm nervous when I don't have the answer."
Maybe this segues into a different problem altogether, but maybe this can also be a part of this conversation too; how can I use the themes of alchemy and craftsmanship to help enable this player to feel less nervous about being thrown curveballs and things they might not be so prepared for? I figured that just the premise of having crafting and projects like this available would be enough, but I'm wondering what else I can do for them to give them comfort with this type of character that things will end out alright. I don't want them entering every scenario with the assumption that, because of their measly Wizard HP, they'll drop dead unless they have the perfect solution at hand, y'know?
For what it's worth though, your guys' experiences are also super reassuring as well, and I think the more that we discuss it and see the problems that come with catering too much to this sort of thing that I'll have to explain it in this new light and keep things trimmed down to the basics. I'm down for bending things for the rule of cool, but I'm not really sure I feel super cool about having all of my potential puzzles and problems I want to throw at the party solved in a pinch. I do think a huge part of this is just going to have to break down to the idea of "this is fantasy and I'm not here to extrapolate extensive science in my world, I don't got the brains or the energy for it." The handwaving of magic systems only happens because of the rule of cool, but there's not exactly too much excitement happening for me doing an extensive science project and considering how the entire periodic table factors into my game...
If you feel outclassed in science by your player, two options:
1. Allow them their homebrew. Players who homebrew are engaged in the game. Whatever they say about the real world science, believe it. But you control the game balance. If real world science would make an overpowered item or ability, limit access to the ingredients.
2. Say your world is a fantasy world, and real world physics don't apply. Other original physical laws may apply, which their character may learn about by investigating labs and libraries in your world.
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Starting the first few sessions to a new campaign and one of my players has been egging me on to run an Orcish potionmaker and "scientist," but we've been hitting a lot of impasses and butting heads about how much they should be allowed to do. At first we discussed the Alchemist Artificer as a class, but they felt the options were too limited and geared more towards an enchanter than the kind of alchemy they wanted, so we decided to switch to Transmutation Wizard and let XGE rules on potionmaking and item crafting handle a lot of the elements of actually making things via alchemy.
But said player is locked in with the idea of making their own homebrew potions and items that I keep fearing will be way too overpowered, as well as applying knowledge of real world science that I frankly can't keep up with and account for. Example in our last session was that I was challenging the party for clever solutions to surviving in the desert without water so that they would prioritize finding a source of water/civilization, since I didn't want them wandering around aimlessly and had places to be. Our eager scientist used the Minor Alchemy feature to transmute a dried log into iron at sunset to collect the water from transpiration during evening cooling on its surface. It was the only kind of solution that the entire party could think of to try to help out and we ruled that it worked well enough, but I'm concerned that it might set a precedent about problem solving in the future. I'm not upset that the problem was solved, but moreso that I tried reading up on the science of it afterwards and it all has gone way over my head; I haven't been able to find any evidence of it being a legitimate thing. I'm not concerned about my player "cheating me" at the table or anything by making up mumbojumbo science or anything, but I'm more concerned about not being able to understand and account for some of these things in game.
Said player has also talked extensively about making a long table of experimental elixirs based off of the table presented in this homebrew and then some, but part of me is worried now because there are A LOT of utilities and solutions they wish to have immediately on hand it seems. I'm starting to get really concerned that, if I allow so many of these options along with the power of a normal full caster with a slew of spells and slots to spend, I may not be able to challenge the party as well. I'm especially concerned with how I should rule while playing in regards to these scientific solutions; I've explained to them that I would much rather prefer them to think in terms of magic than science for my own sanity and understanding (i.e. I would rather reward the player the heart of a firenewt so they take the time to create a flask of "alchemist's lava" rather than letting them freely make napalm and thermite from an obscure piece of real-world chemistry that I'm unaware of).
Long story short, I'm deathly afraid of enabling my player here to go over my head with a lot of this stuff, especially when they're citing scientific solutions that I can't exactly follow, and I'm looking for a system of compromise to appease them on their eagerness to craft and create while also being something that I can wrap my head around and keep in check. I don't want to hand them a catalog full of answers, but I do want them to keep being inspired and pursue their creative urges. Does anybody have any insight on how I can make sure that I keep control of this at the table but don't end up being a killjoy either?
If you feel you have a good enough grasp on balance I'd allow the player to suggest some homebrew potions with the caveat: if it does become overpowered it's either rebalanced or gone. Also, stress to the player that you're putting in a lot of time already and that they shouldn't suggest a huge amount of homebrew at once. As for using real-world science, decide if it would make sense for an intelligent person in medieval society to know how to do that and if not say no. I wouldn't allow a massive table of elixirs in any game because it is too easy to accidentally get something game-breaking and checking every option takes a while; I'd limit the player to a d20 table of elixir options if I allowed it all. Hope this helped.
call me Anna or Kerns, (she/her), usually a DM, lgbtq+ friendly
Downtime. When the characters are in town for a week or so between adventures, let them work on a set number (subject to change) of elixirs. Those things take time to brew, after all! More powerful elixirs might take several weeks. They'd take up the downtime, and require an Intelligence (Alchemist's Tools) check at a fairly low DC. And they'd cost money: I'd say level 25 gp for a first level spell effect, 75 for a second, 150 for a third, etc, would be fair. Maybe give them fun local "quests" to buy, trade, or find rare ingredients for each one.
Meanwhile, be sure to give the other characters fun downtime options! Maybe the fighter can bet on himself in a tavern brawl, the rogue can try to burgle a noble's safe, or the cleric can become a local hero through charity. Encourage them to come up with ideas of their own.
And as for the magic/science thing, just be honest and firm with them: you need to keep the game balanced to keep it fun, and you don't want to become Einstein, so not everything that would work in reality can work here. They might whine or be a jerk, but just stand your ground and end the conversation, don't even try to argue. You're being more than reasonable.
(P.S. That homebrew seems way overpowered.)
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Don't allow that homebrew without a decent amount of modifications. I already read a bit of it and you can create a potion from 10 GP many of which are absolutely broken. This subclass is also an absolute info dump as well. As a DM I'd ask for simplification of this subclass as well. I'm not going to read 50 different effects as a DM many of which are gamebreaking and I'd have to suggest changes on all of them.
I'll think of ways to fix this subclass for you but the initial impression is 50-150 gp per potion as well as a ton of potion rebalancing.
I feel like we've had enough conversation and dialogue about this topic to be able to agree that this is a tricky balance thing, but I think we're both dedicated to the idea of making it work at least, so there's some mutual respect there. It's hard to figure out what needs to be given more love vs. seeing what can already actually be achieved with a class. For example, I'm trying to reassess the list of elixirs I've made so far and say "okay does this need to be on the list of things to make more accessible to this wizard, or can this wizard already pick this up in some other way and just flavor their casting to be a little more alchemical?" But I'd rather not accidentally give them access to everything and anything as to make sure that the level of access is even with the rest of the group (Paladin, Barbarian, and Warlock).
I think the concept of running standard alchemy and crafting over downtime like suggested in XGE is the direction I'd prefer to pull things in to minimize how much has to be homebrewed, but I know they're seeking more "on the fly" solutions as well that I'm considering asking to be flavored or solved with what is capable and known with the class as a base. It does just feel dangerous to give such a MASSIVE toolbox to this one player who is already taking a class that is known for having vast toolboxes already when the rest of the party is begging to be given things that make them useful in other ways.
This is still definitely the struggle and the juggle I feel- making sure that they understand that this isn't just about validity, but also just general sensibility and my own sanity. It's also really difficult because there are some things in my world that are made rational with science (i.e. trains, firearms, arcane technology, etc.), but a lot of is is handwaving and the majority is rooted in fantasy still. It's hard to allow them to feel like the smart alchemist they want to be while keeping them in line with their more traditional background, all while respecting the potential of the civilization they come from as a whole (we have orc society written somewhat differently in our world, but it still remains that you see a lot of tribal cultures and traditional alchemists/healers at most- not necessarily Einsteins like you said). It's hard as a DM to ask your players to limit themselves sometimes, but I wish there was an easier way to discuss this topic and really figure out where to compromise these desires to be the crafty but scrappy wizard they desire while keeping the balance of the game in mind.
(also Nano bless your soul, bless all of y'alls souls- you guys are my heroes ;<; thank you for the validation and the support lol)
Alright I've figured out how I'm gonna do this. Do you think your player would be cool with alchemy being a feat? I have a somewhat simplistic (although a bit complex for a feat) idea on how to do this.
We have a system that allows those sorta things so I say shoot off with ya brainstorming!
I always try to stay away from real world science, bringing it into play involves waaaay too much metagaming. The player knows how the physics behind something works, because they heard about it in school or wherever. But how would the character possibly know to try the thing? If the character is doing something that's never been done before in that world, they are literally inventing things and processes, and making discoveries. Now certainly, someone with ann18-20 int is going to be able to think of things no one had before, but its not something they really do every day.
What if you do something like an int save? If he makes the save, his character can invent the thing, but if not, its beyond them. Setting the DC will be the tricky part, of course, but that could be a start.
And I'd really stay away from much homebrewing for alchemy. There used to be a rule about potion crafting (maybe there still is) that it was limited to mimicking spells of level 3 and below. (also, I'd add with a range of self or touch or something, no fireball in a bottle) So they can brew up basically single use spells of limited power. Then you have the spell rules so you know the effect is going to be fairly well balanced. And you can use crafting rules (in particular exotic ingredients) to allow yourself to limit how many they make. That potion of fly will need the feather of a giant eagle, and then you can control how often the character can acquire such a feather. And magic is tricky. It has to be an authentic item, a transmuted version will not work.
I think that a big thing that I need to clarify with this player is the concept that IRL knowledge translating to in-game knowledge is metagaming and isn't really kosher at this table just because of the things that it might enable. Or, at least that there needs to be some level of control on whether their character knows/is capable of something or not- be it by limited resources, limited precedence, or just limited skill/experimentation. We have discussed at least limiting creations to knowing the specific formulas for certain magic items/potions, so I think that's at least a starting point; if they want to make more unique things, they might have to study/find a formula for such a thing before just magically snapping their fingers and inventing it on the fly.
I would not allow that homebrew list of potions. What I would do is ...
1) use the crafting system from Xanathar's Guide for regular potions, including requiring a formula, but allow the character to create formula's using their proficiency with an alchemy set. DC to create those is based on the rarity of the potion with at least a week of downtime required to formulate the recipe.
2) for more freeform, on the fly solutions allow the use of an alchemy set to be applied to problems that would normally require other skills or tools, at an increased time increment. A locked door that would normally take thieves tools and one action? You can attempt to bypass it with the alchemy set and one minute of work at the same DC as long as you can explain how you do it. A crime scene that would normally take an Investigation roll and one minute can be cased with an alchemy set and one hour of work. Etc ... maaaaybe give the alchemy set something like 5 charges and then require them to spend gold to restock their alchemy set at the original price of the set.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I didn't even consider boiling things down to just a standard tool check- not a bad idea at all. Measuring how much "chemical resources" were available for the creation of some of these things was also something I was dreading, so boiling it down to making alchemist's tools the equivalent of a problem-solving kit like a healer's kit is the equivalent of a medical issue with charges or pieces in it that are consumed is a useful direction to move in.
And in regards to creating HB potion formulas, I think the best way to determine rarity would probably just be trying to figure out what kind of spell/existing item it equates best to and determining how much more rare it ought to be from there. Rarity is always a tricky thing, but I definitely think it has to be an important part of these conversations with the player moving forward so they don't mistakenly get it in their heads that they can make something Very Rare for the price of something Uncommon and then get disappointed with themselves when I say no.
Alright I made my attempt on an alchemy feat with a healthy balance of randomness but also some control over your alchemy! It's a bit lengthy for a feat but it's nothing compared to the D100 table + abilities that the subclass had. Note that I haven't entirely balanced this yet so it may be a bit unbalanced but nowhere close to that crazy wizard subclass.
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/1lvNr0ZSPXeokdVj4oUAUThzeuw1NGcmQUYQwGOHltKR5
(Sorry if the link doesn't work, but then you'd have to read what I put in the spoiler or copy paste what I put in the spoiler into a homebrewery document.)
### Alchemical Adept
*Prerequisite: Intelligence 13 or higher or the alchemist artificer specialist*
You have learned the ways of alchemy to create potions which create effects akin to spells. You gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies.
Also, choose 3 cantrips and 1 1st level spell in the conjuration, evocation, and transmutation schools of magic from the artificer and wizard spell lists. You can also choose cantrips and spells for the 1st level spell that you know or you have prepared when you take this feat. You can spend 1 hour of time to do research, which you can use to switch out one cantrip or the 1st level spell. At 5th level you can replace the 1st level spell with 2nd level spells you know or have prepared, a 3rd level spell at 9th level, 4th at 13th level, and 5th at 17th level.
You can spend 10 minutes of time or an action to make a potion using your alchemist's supplies by spending 10 gp worth of ingredients which are consumed. Roll on the table to decide what potion you end up with. Also if you spend an hour of time of more on the potion, you can spend 10 gp worth of potion ingredients to reroll on the table which will add an extra 10 minutes of time on making the potion.
##### Potions
| 1d6 |Potion created |
|:----:|:-----------------------------------------------------:|
| 1 | Reroll on the table if you spent 10 minutes or more on making the potion. Otherwise, the potion explodes and you and any creatures within 5 feet of you must make a DC 10 dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 force damage or half the amount on a failed save.|
| 2 | You can supply and extra 20 gp worth of ingredients in order to create a potion which can heal. If you decide not to supply the ingredients reroll. If you do, you create a potion which heals 2d4 + 2 hit points. You can also supply extra materials which increases the healing by 1d4 +1 for every extra 10 gp of ingredients you spend.|
| 3 | Your potion has the effects of the 1st cantrip you chose. |
| 4 | Your potion has the effects of the 2nd cantrip you chose. |
| 5 | Your potion has the effects of the 3rd cantrip you chose. |
| 6 | You can supply and extra 10 gp worth of ingredients in order to create a potion which has the effects of the non cantrip spell you chose. For every level above 1st, you must spend an extra 20 gp of ingredients to successfully make the potion. If you decide not to supply the extra ingredients, reroll on the table.|
When you make a potion, choose if it is a thrown or self potion. A self potion you can use an action to use up the potion and get the potion's effects. A potion which deals damage must be a thrown potion. When using a thrown potion and the spell is an area of effect spell, you throw the potion up to 30 feet as an action, and the point of origin is where the flask landed. An attack roll spell uses an attack roll as an action to throw using strength, dexterity, or intelligence in which you throw the potion up to 30 feet.
Your intelligence is your spellcasting modifier in terms of spell save DC and spellcasting ability.
I'm glad you liked it! I think tool proficiencies need more love. They're a cool way for characters to customize their skillset without having to take a feat or multiclass. Be a little stringent maybe, I don't think I would allow an alchemy kit to bypass something like jumping over a pit. A Strength check to break down a door? Ok I can see some judiciously applied acid accomplish that.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ok so I have a similar situation I can hopefully use to help your situation. In my case the player is an artificer, Battlesmith and he has a long list of inventions he wants to come up with, not all magical, a lot of them using science and technology to solve problems.
We have sat down together and agreed, first of all, the level of science and technology that is known in the world. The player accepts that this is not the modern world, but also it is a world of magic and gods. The player has accepted that ultimately I have the final say on if his character knows certain scientific principles. From there we then talk through each invention he wants to make, he will sketch out a rough design of how it would work and together we will think about how, in a magical universe, fantastical elements might be used. For instance he wanted to make a device that acted a bit like a cattle prod, a long pole that delivers a shock of electricity that might temporarily paralyse. We determined a couple of ways of doing this, and I identified rare materials that might be able to help. I then set a price and a DC for building the device once the materials are collected.
When the player is then ready to do the building a combination of Tinkerer, Alchemist or other relevant skill rolls will be required. Based on the roll the device might be completed, delayed or broken and needed to start over, materials lost.
I allow the same with potions etc, a player can suggest what they want the potion to do and I will then determine if it is possible, how hard it is to make, what exotic or rare ingredients are necessary and how long it will take to create. I then set a DC based on all of that.
My advice to you is to try and do this the same way, in terms of in game "scientific solutions" explain to the player that Player knowledge does not auto equate to character knowledge. Ultimately if a scientific theory is too complicated for you to understand then you need to question is it something that in game will be known. Now would a character with experience in the dessert know that a cold metal surface collects moisture and can be a way to gather water, maybe. But would someone from a non dessert background know this, no matter how "scientifically minded" they are.
Another thing to remember is that a low level character is not a fully fledged developed character, they are at the start of a journey so they shouldn't expect to know everything, they are learning and discovering and, by their very nature, an adventurer has less time to study, do research and learn.
There is I think here a case for you to gently explain to the player that there character doesn't know everything and, even if they have spent time in a university or school of magic, as an Orc they do not have the long life of an elf to say, I spent 150 years studying scientific theory as a young elf. There needs to be a sense of realism here about what they know and what they still need to learn. By all means allow them in citys and towns to find books and research in down time. I have had a character i played who for an hour before every long rest spent time reading whatever book they where studying.
Also science doesn't have to be true in your setting if you don't want it to be. The world could run on magical principle instead of physics. Atoms and molecules and germs don't need to exist in a fantasy world just because they exist in ours.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Thank y'all so much for all of the solutions you've been offering- it's been great help to figure out how to approach this issue! I think the trickiest part of it is trying to get them to suspend their disbelief and let me be the one to educate them, if that makes sense. I.e. rather than letting them be the one to school me on real world science, I should be the one trying to guide them on a journey and give them new things to discover and make revelations about putting towards some sort of use. That sort of feels true and in line with the sort of XGE crafting systems already in the game at hand, whereas these other solutions they've tried to propose are more like real-world or video game crafting systems which frankly just... don't hold up in D&D as much.
I think I also need to get more comfortable with the idea of setting higher DCs for things as well. I think I'm too inclined to go with the flow of "10 ain't a single-digit number, so certainly it isn't a failure; if it ain't a failure, it MUST be a success, right?" But a lot of these out-of-the-box ideas ought to be things that, even with exceptional skill, really ought to take more time, thought, and effort.
I think it might also just help them to sit down with them and really hash out how some of the things in this world work and agree on a level of technology like some of you have mentioned. I.e. "no there aren't TVs, but there are crystal balls which act kinda like them if you wanted to count that," but also "no there's not rocket science or quantum physics in this universe, just alchemist's fire and planar theory." I think that I would also be far more willing to allow more impressive effects from potions or magic items upon the use of rare ingredients and allow "common ingredients" to be associated with the concepts behind standard material components in casting (i.e. iron fillings can be flavored somehow in Enlarge/Reduce based on some chemical reaction?).
Real world information is essentially useless in a fantasy game. I wouldn't let anyone apply their real world knowledge in my game unless I understood it clearly myself. People are always trying to bend the rules. They want historical weapons, armor and gear that the game may have once had, but is now just a memory.
If they want to use Real World Alchemy, tell them that is absolutely fine! Go right ahead! You know what Real World Alchemy was able to do? Make some of the things a Healer's Kit can. Antitoxins and remedies for the symptoms of diseases. Anything else? Nope. Were are talking about the real world here. No transmuting anything into anything else. No potions that do anything other than help remove the Poisoned condition, or remedy the symptoms of a given disease. Only real world diseases at that. The DMG doesn't list any real ones, and most cannot be cured here in the real world.
If they don't want to be an Artificer Alchemist, if they don't want to follow the suggestions from Xanathar's, and they keep insisting on a pile of homebrew you don't like, what that player is doing is abusing you and your game. I seems unlikely the other players would stand for it unless you let them do it themselves. I surely wouldn't.
(As for that silliness about "transpiration", near as I understand it, that would only get a few drops of water, not enough for a single mouthful.)
<Insert clever signature here>
Okay so this person is basically trying to use real world physics to educate you about your own campaign setting? Bruh. And BTW he's/she's using "science" to explain why he/she should lay a blatantly magical subclass about magic potions he made? That doesn't make sense. None of the effects on his table except like 1 that I read are remotely close to science. He's/She's not trying to argue about what's realistic, he's/she's arguing to try to get an in game advantage. Is a dragon's breath potion "realistic"? Is a mana potion "realistic"? No it isn't.
Plus it's your magical world. Heck some physics might work differently. I've dealt with a guy who's tried to use "realism" for absolute bs and unrealistic advantages and I dread having to DM for that person. I'd recommend if even when you solve this character creation issue if this person tries to use "realism" to get advantages once the game starts you shut that down quickly.
Sorry if this post is aggressive the player just sounds like a person who I'd hate to DM for. I may be misinterpreting some things and overreacting but it reminds me of some past D&D horror stories I've had.
The support is appreciated all around, and for what it's worth we've discussed these sorta things at length together and tried to find compromises often. Long story short, this is a long-going campaign that we break into "seasons" with new characters each year, and we're moving into our fifth season- so the world is VERY well-established. This player only just entered the group last season, and they're definitely still adjusting to the type of campaign we play (more narrative rather than mechanical in some cases, but still tryna have an even mix). We try to hash things out and find compromises on these sort of things, but it's definitely a challenge. I.e., they came into our campaign wanting to try out Mystic and when that ended up being too broken even for us (we're pretty loose with rules so it was a bit of a shocker to have the powerhouse of Mystic shredding through everything lol) switched to Druid, but we had a lot of issues about character and character choices. It was all a lot, but I'd like to hope we're past it at least.
They're definitely a player that has expressed a level of discomfort in leaning too heavily into the odds of things, which personally I... strongly disagree with in a game of statistics and random chance when it comes to rolling dice...?? They're very much NOT a "high risk high reward" sort of player and have a lot of issues on things like how they spend their resources (i.e. not wanting to consume potions or spell slots often without knowing if there'll be a way to get a return on them). In retrospect, I definitely see signs of them trying to gain statistical advantages or mechanical comforts to lessen the odds of failure or probable difficulty at all, but I think it's less of "I want to powergame" and more of "I'm nervous when I don't have the answer."
Maybe this segues into a different problem altogether, but maybe this can also be a part of this conversation too; how can I use the themes of alchemy and craftsmanship to help enable this player to feel less nervous about being thrown curveballs and things they might not be so prepared for? I figured that just the premise of having crafting and projects like this available would be enough, but I'm wondering what else I can do for them to give them comfort with this type of character that things will end out alright. I don't want them entering every scenario with the assumption that, because of their measly Wizard HP, they'll drop dead unless they have the perfect solution at hand, y'know?
For what it's worth though, your guys' experiences are also super reassuring as well, and I think the more that we discuss it and see the problems that come with catering too much to this sort of thing that I'll have to explain it in this new light and keep things trimmed down to the basics. I'm down for bending things for the rule of cool, but I'm not really sure I feel super cool about having all of my potential puzzles and problems I want to throw at the party solved in a pinch. I do think a huge part of this is just going to have to break down to the idea of "this is fantasy and I'm not here to extrapolate extensive science in my world, I don't got the brains or the energy for it." The handwaving of magic systems only happens because of the rule of cool, but there's not exactly too much excitement happening for me doing an extensive science project and considering how the entire periodic table factors into my game...
If you feel outclassed in science by your player, two options:
1. Allow them their homebrew. Players who homebrew are engaged in the game. Whatever they say about the real world science, believe it. But you control the game balance. If real world science would make an overpowered item or ability, limit access to the ingredients.
2. Say your world is a fantasy world, and real world physics don't apply. Other original physical laws may apply, which their character may learn about by investigating labs and libraries in your world.