I'm getting ready to DM my first D&D campaign and my buddies are getting hyped to play. We are all relatively new to D&D and this will be our first time playing. I'm wanting to start the story with the premade characters to get a feel for the world, but I also want them to be able to create their own memorable characters. I'm tossing around the idea to TPK the original party to make way for their own band of adventurers. Any recommendations on how to do this effectively or in a way that would make sense from a narrative perspective? We will be playing through the Lost Mine of Phandelver and I would love some feedback! Thanks.
I'm getting ready to DM my first D&D campaign and my buddies are getting hyped to play. We are all relatively new to D&D and this will be our first time playing. I'm wanting to start the story with the premade characters to get a feel for the world, but I also want them to be able to create their own memorable characters. I'm tossing around the idea to TPK the original party to make way for their own band of adventurers. Any recommendations on how to do this effectively or in a way that would make sense from a narrative perspective? We will be playing through the Lost Mine of Phandelver and I would love some feedback! Thanks.
That’s… actually a cool idea. If you’ve ever played Pipyap’s Guide to Hell (which does something similar), it’s a great way to intro people to a campaign before actually bringing them in.
I’d play them as a party in Phandalin to start off, just before the Redbrands take over. Maybe meet the mayor, have a couple of minor encounters to save some local farmers from a goblin raid… then have them trapped at the Tresendar Manor and defeated…
But then tell them that they keep their XP gained thus far, and let them make new characters at level 2 (or halfway to) to start the campaign. You could even include the permafrost characters’ relatives or friends of the new characters, wondering what happened to their friends.
Add a goblin or two to the encounters if you need to and slow their advancement a teeny bit… but now when they get to Phandalin they’re going to be far more curious…
If you want to do this, then start them off with premade characters and kill them off at the end of a single session. Don't allow players to get attached to their characters before you intentionally kill them. It's probably best to tell players that they're going to start off by playing a one-shot game.
Give each player a premade character
After the first combat, as they learn the rules, level them all to level 2.
Two combats later, let them become level 3
At the end of the fourth combat, they find something that they've been looking for - maybe it's the Big Bad Evil Guy, or maybe it's a magical item. Snap! The players realise that they've been duped, betrayed, suckered. They can either join the evil force, or they can fight it and be hopelessly outmatched by a powerful adversary.
The dust clears... everyone is dead.
Immediately give them the plot thread that in a quiet village, a party of adventurers has just been hired to [insert whatever you will use next here].
Players make their own characters
Spend at least a session helping them with characters - watch Youtube videos about how to make fun and engaging characters. In particular: all characters must be motivated by either money, wanting to do good and help people, or a desire for glory. If they are motivated by none of these things, they will be impossible characters to DM for.
It isn't fun to be killed, and it is probably even less fun to be killed just because the DM decided that today he would like to wipe out the entire party. You are essentially establishing yourself as a DM that kills of the entire party when YOU feel like it. Sorry, but I don't think there are many players that would like that.
If you think the players would like to create new "personal" characters after a few sessions when they've gotten a hold of it, ask them. That give them the opportunity to choose. If someone want to create a new character, let them do that, but let those who want to keep their characters keep them. Find a way to get that to work (or come back here and ask for help, and I can assure you that you'll get some good advice).
I would agree that this could be upsetting for your players. Do they know and expect this to happen? Do any of them want to run a starter set character for the whole game? Sometimes character creation can be difficult for new players.
Maybe you could do something that would take the characters out of the action for a while, but not kill them, if your party wants to make new ones.
If you still want to TPK, talk to the players first. Don't tell them exactly what you're planning, but ask them how they feel about death in dnd. Do they believe risk is part of the fun, or would they rather be brought back from death through reincarnation? Questions like this can also help you figure out what your group is looking for in an adventure.
Or just simply one shot it and they ride off into the sunset done with what they wanted to do and a new campaign starts and new characters are made, that was the trauma of tpk is avoided.
I think it sounds like an awesome idea, provided it is explained, that it will happen. I wouldn't say WHEN, but let them know these pre-gen characters are temporary, to allow them to get a feel for stuff. As mentioned, level them "quickly" to 2, maybe even 3, if they are picking it up quick. When the time is right (everyone has a pretty good idea of what they're doing) slay them all and they now create THEIR character. This new party might be sent to investigate what the last party died trying. For a bigger boost, maybe the enemies were turned up for the first group and the second group (the real player characters) get revenge by killing the killers.
IMO it's a good way to introduce folks quickly, to gain some understanding, then flip it, and let them take proper control of their end of the game, all the while, building and working a singular storyline. If my DM did something like that, even now, with a fair bit of playing experience and some DMing under my belt, I would feel truly engaged and involved, I think.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I think it sounds like an awesome idea, provided it is explained, that it will happen. I wouldn't say WHEN, but let them know these pre-gen characters are temporary, to allow them to get a feel for stuff.
I agree that telling the players up front that this WILL happen puts it in a completely different light. Then it's not "fooling" the players, then it is a "rule" everybody knows about.
However, I really disagree on this idea:
As mentioned, level them "quickly" to 2, maybe even 3, if they are picking it up quick.
I just don't see why it is a good idea to give new players the expectation that they should level up quickly. If anything, I would recommend to be quite hard on the leveling up. It is the first time, let them sweat for it, they are new to the game, so let them have time learning the system. You can even wait with leveling up at all until the players have created their own characters (if that is the "goal").
If the players are new to D&D then having characters they are playing die can be a shock and definitely not fun. Depending on their backgrounds they may not expect their characters to die.
I would suggest letting them know that you are introducing the module by having them play the LAST party in the area. This is the story that they hear at the bar where they pick up the adventure hook that leads them to Phandalin.
The problem is that you won't want to run any actual content from the module. You might have the characters travel to Phandalin (but don't put in too many details since they are playing a story they are being told AND their actual characters will also be traveling soon). The previous party meets the mayor, is assigned a task, heads off to an encounter that is too difficult for them - possibly the dragon or bandits or something else - and are killed. As DM you can use this session to teach them the way the game works, some of the mechanics AND that the larger world is a dangerous place. The characters want to be a bit cautious but also know that there are threats that are out there killing innocent people.
Once the tale of the unfortunate party is complete, you can cut back to the bar and do character creation for the players now that they have a bit of an idea of some of the basic classes and how the game works (I'd recommend allowing them to make some changes as they progress since they may find that they don't like whatever character they initially choose).
Anyway, starting off this way is a bit risky since you don't want the players to get a bad impression - on the other hand, when done well it can be a good introductory session to both the game and the module.
P.S. Whether you tell the players or not - I strongly recommend leveling them up to level 2 by the second full session with their own characters (i.e. after 3-4 or so hours of play). Level 1 characters are very vulnerable to stray critical hits and other chance events and it would be nice if the characters don't die too early.
As mentioned, level them "quickly" to 2, maybe even 3, if they are picking it up quick.
I just don't see why it is a good idea to give new players the expectation that they should level up quickly. If anything, I would recommend to be quite hard on the leveling up. It is the first time, let them sweat for it, they are new to the game, so let them have time learning the system. You can even wait with leveling up at all until the players have created their own characters (if that is the "goal").
I'm with you. I get the idea that the game doesn't "really start" until you've picked your subclass, but making those kinds of decisions (and picking more spells, etc.) just gets the players more invested in the TPK characters, which is what you're trying to avoid.
The pregens are only there to teach them the basics. Keep them at level 1... but then start the new party at level 2.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would suggest letting them know that you are introducing the module by having them play the LAST party in the area. This is the story that they hear at the bar where they pick up the adventure hook that leads them to Phandalin.
Isn't the hook in LMoP that their dwarf friend and his bodyguard get captured by goblins? Just expand on that, and have the TPK party be the rest of his escort that got wiped out. Maybe drop a little foreshadowing about what's to come, like it's a cut scene, so that the players feel like the pre-show served a purpose beyond teaching them how to do combat.
Then the real party can pick up exactly where the module does -- they were hired to follow behind escorting supplies, but when they get to town they find their friend/patron never showed up.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I know I’m the opposite here, but I’m firmly in the camp that you kill the characters off in the first session… but don’t warn them about it. D&D (IMO), is a game and dying is part of the game. If players learn early on that dying is not something to get upset about and is actually a great way to build a story, then learning early on will set a really good stage.
Warning them beforehand merely sets an expectation that “the DM is cool, he won’t kill a character unless he tells us first!” and this will only lead to more upset players later.
Instead, treat death like an expository moment - in your case, it can be a great story element and background for their next character. Maybe a plot hook or motive for their next character to be involved in the campaign. I can’t recommend this enough: what better motivation than getting that revenge on the creature that killed your friend, especially when the scars are still fresh!
Whenever I DM, character death comes easily for the unprepared, but it is never trivial. It serves as a jumping-off point for additional narrative. And if the PCs get used to it, form what I’ve noticed in my games, the death of a character actually inspires their next character even moreso. A relative of the dead character coming to investigate their murder, an assassin paid by their family to exact revenge, a friend that’s just trying to see what happened… these stories now have deep stories and emotions tied to them instead of a line of prose in their background.
This is also why I recommend you give the new characters the same XP as their dead characters. Give them credit for what they’ve done, call this session negative-one, proceed with character creation in session 0 and get them inspired to tie this new character into the dead one somehow. I’ve been doing this with all of my campaigns recently and it’s been working out great!
Anyways - this will probably come across as callous, but I stand by it.
Thank you all for the insight and recommendations. You’ve definitely given me some things to think about and consider.
My tentative plan at this time is to do a session -1 of sorts and play through the goblin cave with pre gen characters. After they encounter the goblins in the cave and head to (or back to) Phandalin, I have decided to create a goblin raid scenario that will spawn in new goblins when a previous one dies, over-running the party and ensuring a TPK. Session 0 will be tying their new characters to the story how they see fit. Party 2 will start at the same level and XP as the original party. The new party arrives in the village and is fed all of the information the previous party learned to that point.
Begin Session 1. The very first mission of the new party is getting hired to hunt the goblins who killed Party 1, regaining all of Party 1’s loot and then some (I made an arbitrary magic item and will grant them healing potions as part of their bounty. I will also reward them any XP Party 1 would have received if they survived the first encounter). The goblin troupe will have been driven to the goblin caves and will be beatable because a majority of their squad was defeated in their previous raid.
Most of my players are most excited to build their own characters and they were bummed when I told them they will start with pre gen characters instead. I’ve already informed them that their new characters will be introduced to the story early on, and to hold on tight.
To be honest, having the pre gen characters will help me a lot in learning how to DM well and become more familiar with the different spells and actions characters can take in a battle. With the familiarity they earn with the pre gen party, I think that my players will learn early on the value of creating a well balanced character and have an idea what makes a character great. My hope is that it will give them confidence in building a new compelling character where they have a grasp on how to spec out that character well, rather than feeling later on that they made a mistake spec-ing the wrong ability scores because they were too unfamiliar with the game and character creation.
It sounds great, but did you tell them they were going to die? I hate being forced around without having a say so about it. They should at least be warned. You don't have to say where or how or when, but it's something they need to know.
Telling them they are going to die right away is too much meta gaming IMO. An aspect of life and an aspect I'm wanting to include in our campaign is that death is not only inevitable, but it's possible at any given moment. Whether it's of old age, daring adventures, or unforeseen circumstances, I want them to be aware that it can and will happen from time to time. And as a DM, I want them to know I'm not afraid to challenge them or let them get away with strolling through the game. This will be accomplished in our first real session so that their emotional investment is there, but not too deep. I'm not a sadist. I want their characters to be heroes, not meat bags, and certainly not invincible.
TBH I worry that if they know I'm planning a TPK, they won't invest into the first party at all. Why read the book if you skip to the last chapter? They are really excited to create their own characters and I don't want to rob that from their first experience either. The main point in playing the pre gen characters at all is to introduce them to the game, some of the classes, and into challenging role play. With the pre gen characters, they are challenged to play to the character in front of them and "get into the world" so-to-speak. I want them to get used to adventuring outside of their comfort zones to think through how their character would respond and act to the world around them. By encouraging them to get in the mind of the pre gen characters, my goal is to break the ice and loosen them up a bit so that when they step into the shoes of the character they created from their own creative minds, they will have the freedom and space to explore who and what these new characters are capable of.
I guess I'm more or less interested in how to TPK the party effectively, mitigating the collateral damage as much as I can, all while working with my players to create a compelling and adventurous story. I want to do it early enough that they aren't blind sided too far in, but after enough time has passed for them to feel comfortable stepping out into the unknown with a tiny bit of experience under their belt.
For added clarity, we will be playing every 6-8 weeks for 6-8 hours at a time. I plan to have them effectively through sessions -1 to 0 to 1 in one big sitting.
I know I’m the opposite here, but I’m firmly in the camp that you kill the characters off in the first session… but don’t warn them about it. D&D (IMO), is a game and dying is part of the game. If players learn early on that dying is not something to get upset about and is actually a great way to build a story, then learning early on will set a really good stage.
I don't know if we actually disagree a lot. I totally agree that a PC death early on could actually be cool, and add a level of tension to the game and story. However to simply decide as a GM that you WILL kill one or more players whatever they to, basically just doom them to death, removes player contribution from the game. That isn't fun i in my opinion. By all means, make it dangerous, but just deciding there's no chance - we'll that's not my cup of tea.
"I guess I'm more or less interested in how to TPK the party effectively, mitigating the collateral damage as much as I can, all while working with my players to create a compelling and adventurous story. I want to do it early enough that they aren't blind sided too far in, but after enough time has passed for them to feel comfortable stepping out into the unknown with a tiny bit of experience under their belt."
Run the fight as you like, let the chips fall where they may. If you manage to kill them, fine. Remember that any character reduced to zero falls Prone and is Incapacitated. That means the opponent gets to roll twice and take the highest to hit, and if they hit, they get a crit, so that's 2 death checks failed automatically out of three. If there is a second attack of any kind, say the monster has Multi-attack or there is a second attacker, they get to do the same thing, so no matter what, once the character goes down, two hits kills them outright. A single hit can kill them outright by Massive Damage if it does more than twice however many hit point their maximum at the time was. If they had 12, 25 kills them in one hit. If they are at zero, 13 will do the job.
The collateral damage in this case is that the players probably won't like dying without warning or a real chance of success. The only way to mitigate that is to talk it over with them after you have killed them and explain what you have done and why. If they want to continue on, that's great! If they want to go on, it's obvious that it is a compelling and adventurous story, and I'd do it at the first fight in the Lost Mines, which be after the Dwarf has been taken away. They try to track him down, end up in that first goblin cave and you run it just like in the adventure. You should be able to kill them, and if not, bring in the reinforcements and keep pouring it on until you succeed, however long that takes.
TBH I worry that if they know I'm planning a TPK, they won't invest into the first party at all.
Sorry, but I think you have a problem here anyway. Although you are not saying that they will all be dead by the end of the first adventure, you ARE saying that they will only play this pre-gen characters for a very limited time before they can play the characters they have created themselves and WANT to play. I think you will find it hard to have them really invest in those characters anyway. As long as the players know that they will only play those characters for a couple of hours, that's about how much dedication they will give the characters. For experienced players I would have expected the players to play very lightly and care very little for the life of such a character (wich can be a lot of fun). How new players react, I'm not that sure about.
If I were you, I would have reconsidered. It sounds like you have players that want to create their own characters from scratch, and are ready to dedicate themselves to them. Why not just go with that? Death is a possibility in D&D, and it of course s*** to have a character you have created from scratch die early on (if that is what you are afraid of), but that is how the game is. You won't "prepare" the players for this with the TPK-plan you have, because that isn't following the intention of the game. You are just "learning" your players that they live and die at your discretion, they themselves can't really do anything about it.
However, after reading your explanations, I don't think you will "destroy" the game, and as a narrative tool, it can bring in some cool elements. I have the following advice for the "final" battle:
1. Put a limitation to the number of rounds (I would say around 3 should probably be enough). After that, simply narrate what happens. Since they are low level, chances are that's about how long the combat will take anyway, but combat can get repetitive, and since you already have decided the outcome, it might not be that exciting after a few rounds. Especially when the players understand there are no way out, you should just stop. I can guarantee you that NO players will think it is fun to continue playing as soon as they understand it's only a question of time before they die. They will try with things like: "is there a way I can get away? I look for a place to hide!" etc. Your plan is to just deny them all such possibilities, and when they "understand" that, continue to roll dice to see how long you can manage, usually stop being fun.
2. I would consider "cutting to black" BEFORE everyone has died. Play a couple of rounds of desperate combat. Then, let them hear even MORE enemies close in, the just say "and there we leave them". I think you will have a lot more suspense when you start up with the "new" party if they actually don't know exactly what happened to the "first" party. That way it will actually be exciting to go investigating and learn what happened.
3. Be careful with the "auto-spawning". If you give your players the feeling there are an endless horde of goblins there, they might become quite reluctant to go investigating. What do the new party have that'll make them able to succeed where the last part failed. Just having you as a DM on their side this time isn't a very good answer.
If all the players have created a PC each, then why not start with those PCs?
To give my friends the chance to get a feel for the game before creating a character that is very personal to them. I want to introduce them to the kinds of things to think about and be familiar with when creating a character. My friends have zero point of reference for D&D so we decided they can get their feet wet a bit.
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I'm getting ready to DM my first D&D campaign and my buddies are getting hyped to play. We are all relatively new to D&D and this will be our first time playing. I'm wanting to start the story with the premade characters to get a feel for the world, but I also want them to be able to create their own memorable characters. I'm tossing around the idea to TPK the original party to make way for their own band of adventurers. Any recommendations on how to do this effectively or in a way that would make sense from a narrative perspective? We will be playing through the Lost Mine of Phandelver and I would love some feedback! Thanks.
That’s… actually a cool idea. If you’ve ever played Pipyap’s Guide to Hell (which does something similar), it’s a great way to intro people to a campaign before actually bringing them in.
I’d play them as a party in Phandalin to start off, just before the Redbrands take over. Maybe meet the mayor, have a couple of minor encounters to save some local farmers from a goblin raid… then have them trapped at the Tresendar Manor and defeated…
But then tell them that they keep their XP gained thus far, and let them make new characters at level 2 (or halfway to) to start the campaign. You could even include the permafrost characters’ relatives or friends of the new characters, wondering what happened to their friends.
Add a goblin or two to the encounters if you need to and slow their advancement a teeny bit… but now when they get to Phandalin they’re going to be far more curious…
Lots of ways to run this 🙂
If you want to do this, then start them off with premade characters and kill them off at the end of a single session. Don't allow players to get attached to their characters before you intentionally kill them. It's probably best to tell players that they're going to start off by playing a one-shot game.
My recommendation is: DON'T DO IT!
It isn't fun to be killed, and it is probably even less fun to be killed just because the DM decided that today he would like to wipe out the entire party. You are essentially establishing yourself as a DM that kills of the entire party when YOU feel like it. Sorry, but I don't think there are many players that would like that.
If you think the players would like to create new "personal" characters after a few sessions when they've gotten a hold of it, ask them. That give them the opportunity to choose. If someone want to create a new character, let them do that, but let those who want to keep their characters keep them. Find a way to get that to work (or come back here and ask for help, and I can assure you that you'll get some good advice).
Best of luck :-)
Ludo ergo sum!
I would agree that this could be upsetting for your players. Do they know and expect this to happen? Do any of them want to run a starter set character for the whole game? Sometimes character creation can be difficult for new players.
Maybe you could do something that would take the characters out of the action for a while, but not kill them, if your party wants to make new ones.
If you still want to TPK, talk to the players first. Don't tell them exactly what you're planning, but ask them how they feel about death in dnd. Do they believe risk is part of the fun, or would they rather be brought back from death through reincarnation? Questions like this can also help you figure out what your group is looking for in an adventure.
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
Or just simply one shot it and they ride off into the sunset done with what they wanted to do and a new campaign starts and new characters are made, that was the trauma of tpk is avoided.
I think it sounds like an awesome idea, provided it is explained, that it will happen. I wouldn't say WHEN, but let them know these pre-gen characters are temporary, to allow them to get a feel for stuff. As mentioned, level them "quickly" to 2, maybe even 3, if they are picking it up quick. When the time is right (everyone has a pretty good idea of what they're doing) slay them all and they now create THEIR character. This new party might be sent to investigate what the last party died trying. For a bigger boost, maybe the enemies were turned up for the first group and the second group (the real player characters) get revenge by killing the killers.
IMO it's a good way to introduce folks quickly, to gain some understanding, then flip it, and let them take proper control of their end of the game, all the while, building and working a singular storyline. If my DM did something like that, even now, with a fair bit of playing experience and some DMing under my belt, I would feel truly engaged and involved, I think.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I agree that telling the players up front that this WILL happen puts it in a completely different light. Then it's not "fooling" the players, then it is a "rule" everybody knows about.
However, I really disagree on this idea:
I just don't see why it is a good idea to give new players the expectation that they should level up quickly. If anything, I would recommend to be quite hard on the leveling up. It is the first time, let them sweat for it, they are new to the game, so let them have time learning the system. You can even wait with leveling up at all until the players have created their own characters (if that is the "goal").
Ludo ergo sum!
If the players are new to D&D then having characters they are playing die can be a shock and definitely not fun. Depending on their backgrounds they may not expect their characters to die.
I would suggest letting them know that you are introducing the module by having them play the LAST party in the area. This is the story that they hear at the bar where they pick up the adventure hook that leads them to Phandalin.
The problem is that you won't want to run any actual content from the module. You might have the characters travel to Phandalin (but don't put in too many details since they are playing a story they are being told AND their actual characters will also be traveling soon). The previous party meets the mayor, is assigned a task, heads off to an encounter that is too difficult for them - possibly the dragon or bandits or something else - and are killed. As DM you can use this session to teach them the way the game works, some of the mechanics AND that the larger world is a dangerous place. The characters want to be a bit cautious but also know that there are threats that are out there killing innocent people.
Once the tale of the unfortunate party is complete, you can cut back to the bar and do character creation for the players now that they have a bit of an idea of some of the basic classes and how the game works (I'd recommend allowing them to make some changes as they progress since they may find that they don't like whatever character they initially choose).
Anyway, starting off this way is a bit risky since you don't want the players to get a bad impression - on the other hand, when done well it can be a good introductory session to both the game and the module.
P.S. Whether you tell the players or not - I strongly recommend leveling them up to level 2 by the second full session with their own characters (i.e. after 3-4 or so hours of play). Level 1 characters are very vulnerable to stray critical hits and other chance events and it would be nice if the characters don't die too early.
I'm with you. I get the idea that the game doesn't "really start" until you've picked your subclass, but making those kinds of decisions (and picking more spells, etc.) just gets the players more invested in the TPK characters, which is what you're trying to avoid.
The pregens are only there to teach them the basics. Keep them at level 1... but then start the new party at level 2.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Isn't the hook in LMoP that their dwarf friend and his bodyguard get captured by goblins? Just expand on that, and have the TPK party be the rest of his escort that got wiped out. Maybe drop a little foreshadowing about what's to come, like it's a cut scene, so that the players feel like the pre-show served a purpose beyond teaching them how to do combat.
Then the real party can pick up exactly where the module does -- they were hired to follow behind escorting supplies, but when they get to town they find their friend/patron never showed up.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I know I’m the opposite here, but I’m firmly in the camp that you kill the characters off in the first session… but don’t warn them about it. D&D (IMO), is a game and dying is part of the game. If players learn early on that dying is not something to get upset about and is actually a great way to build a story, then learning early on will set a really good stage.
Warning them beforehand merely sets an expectation that “the DM is cool, he won’t kill a character unless he tells us first!” and this will only lead to more upset players later.
Instead, treat death like an expository moment - in your case, it can be a great story element and background for their next character. Maybe a plot hook or motive for their next character to be involved in the campaign. I can’t recommend this enough: what better motivation than getting that revenge on the creature that killed your friend, especially when the scars are still fresh!
Whenever I DM, character death comes easily for the unprepared, but it is never trivial. It serves as a jumping-off point for additional narrative. And if the PCs get used to it, form what I’ve noticed in my games, the death of a character actually inspires their next character even moreso. A relative of the dead character coming to investigate their murder, an assassin paid by their family to exact revenge, a friend that’s just trying to see what happened… these stories now have deep stories and emotions tied to them instead of a line of prose in their background.
This is also why I recommend you give the new characters the same XP as their dead characters. Give them credit for what they’ve done, call this session negative-one, proceed with character creation in session 0 and get them inspired to tie this new character into the dead one somehow. I’ve been doing this with all of my campaigns recently and it’s been working out great!
Anyways - this will probably come across as callous, but I stand by it.
Thank you all for the insight and recommendations. You’ve definitely given me some things to think about and consider.
My tentative plan at this time is to do a session -1 of sorts and play through the goblin cave with pre gen characters. After they encounter the goblins in the cave and head to (or back to) Phandalin, I have decided to create a goblin raid scenario that will spawn in new goblins when a previous one dies, over-running the party and ensuring a TPK. Session 0 will be tying their new characters to the story how they see fit. Party 2 will start at the same level and XP as the original party. The new party arrives in the village and is fed all of the information the previous party learned to that point.
Begin Session 1. The very first mission of the new party is getting hired to hunt the goblins who killed Party 1, regaining all of Party 1’s loot and then some (I made an arbitrary magic item and will grant them healing potions as part of their bounty. I will also reward them any XP Party 1 would have received if they survived the first encounter). The goblin troupe will have been driven to the goblin caves and will be beatable because a majority of their squad was defeated in their previous raid.
Most of my players are most excited to build their own characters and they were bummed when I told them they will start with pre gen characters instead. I’ve already informed them that their new characters will be introduced to the story early on, and to hold on tight.
To be honest, having the pre gen characters will help me a lot in learning how to DM well and become more familiar with the different spells and actions characters can take in a battle. With the familiarity they earn with the pre gen party, I think that my players will learn early on the value of creating a well balanced character and have an idea what makes a character great. My hope is that it will give them confidence in building a new compelling character where they have a grasp on how to spec out that character well, rather than feeling later on that they made a mistake spec-ing the wrong ability scores because they were too unfamiliar with the game and character creation.
What do you guys think of this idea?
It sounds great, but did you tell them they were going to die? I hate being forced around without having a say so about it. They should at least be warned. You don't have to say where or how or when, but it's something they need to know.
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Telling them they are going to die right away is too much meta gaming IMO. An aspect of life and an aspect I'm wanting to include in our campaign is that death is not only inevitable, but it's possible at any given moment. Whether it's of old age, daring adventures, or unforeseen circumstances, I want them to be aware that it can and will happen from time to time. And as a DM, I want them to know I'm not afraid to challenge them or let them get away with strolling through the game. This will be accomplished in our first real session so that their emotional investment is there, but not too deep. I'm not a sadist. I want their characters to be heroes, not meat bags, and certainly not invincible.
TBH I worry that if they know I'm planning a TPK, they won't invest into the first party at all. Why read the book if you skip to the last chapter? They are really excited to create their own characters and I don't want to rob that from their first experience either. The main point in playing the pre gen characters at all is to introduce them to the game, some of the classes, and into challenging role play. With the pre gen characters, they are challenged to play to the character in front of them and "get into the world" so-to-speak. I want them to get used to adventuring outside of their comfort zones to think through how their character would respond and act to the world around them. By encouraging them to get in the mind of the pre gen characters, my goal is to break the ice and loosen them up a bit so that when they step into the shoes of the character they created from their own creative minds, they will have the freedom and space to explore who and what these new characters are capable of.
I guess I'm more or less interested in how to TPK the party effectively, mitigating the collateral damage as much as I can, all while working with my players to create a compelling and adventurous story. I want to do it early enough that they aren't blind sided too far in, but after enough time has passed for them to feel comfortable stepping out into the unknown with a tiny bit of experience under their belt.
For added clarity, we will be playing every 6-8 weeks for 6-8 hours at a time. I plan to have them effectively through sessions -1 to 0 to 1 in one big sitting.
I don't know if we actually disagree a lot. I totally agree that a PC death early on could actually be cool, and add a level of tension to the game and story. However to simply decide as a GM that you WILL kill one or more players whatever they to, basically just doom them to death, removes player contribution from the game. That isn't fun i in my opinion. By all means, make it dangerous, but just deciding there's no chance - we'll that's not my cup of tea.
Ludo ergo sum!
"I guess I'm more or less interested in how to TPK the party effectively, mitigating the collateral damage as much as I can, all while working with my players to create a compelling and adventurous story. I want to do it early enough that they aren't blind sided too far in, but after enough time has passed for them to feel comfortable stepping out into the unknown with a tiny bit of experience under their belt."
Run the fight as you like, let the chips fall where they may. If you manage to kill them, fine. Remember that any character reduced to zero falls Prone and is Incapacitated. That means the opponent gets to roll twice and take the highest to hit, and if they hit, they get a crit, so that's 2 death checks failed automatically out of three. If there is a second attack of any kind, say the monster has Multi-attack or there is a second attacker, they get to do the same thing, so no matter what, once the character goes down, two hits kills them outright. A single hit can kill them outright by Massive Damage if it does more than twice however many hit point their maximum at the time was. If they had 12, 25 kills them in one hit. If they are at zero, 13 will do the job.
The collateral damage in this case is that the players probably won't like dying without warning or a real chance of success. The only way to mitigate that is to talk it over with them after you have killed them and explain what you have done and why. If they want to continue on, that's great! If they want to go on, it's obvious that it is a compelling and adventurous story, and I'd do it at the first fight in the Lost Mines, which be after the Dwarf has been taken away. They try to track him down, end up in that first goblin cave and you run it just like in the adventure. You should be able to kill them, and if not, bring in the reinforcements and keep pouring it on until you succeed, however long that takes.
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Sorry, but I think you have a problem here anyway. Although you are not saying that they will all be dead by the end of the first adventure, you ARE saying that they will only play this pre-gen characters for a very limited time before they can play the characters they have created themselves and WANT to play. I think you will find it hard to have them really invest in those characters anyway. As long as the players know that they will only play those characters for a couple of hours, that's about how much dedication they will give the characters. For experienced players I would have expected the players to play very lightly and care very little for the life of such a character (wich can be a lot of fun). How new players react, I'm not that sure about.
If I were you, I would have reconsidered. It sounds like you have players that want to create their own characters from scratch, and are ready to dedicate themselves to them. Why not just go with that? Death is a possibility in D&D, and it of course s*** to have a character you have created from scratch die early on (if that is what you are afraid of), but that is how the game is. You won't "prepare" the players for this with the TPK-plan you have, because that isn't following the intention of the game. You are just "learning" your players that they live and die at your discretion, they themselves can't really do anything about it.
However, after reading your explanations, I don't think you will "destroy" the game, and as a narrative tool, it can bring in some cool elements. I have the following advice for the "final" battle:
1. Put a limitation to the number of rounds (I would say around 3 should probably be enough). After that, simply narrate what happens. Since they are low level, chances are that's about how long the combat will take anyway, but combat can get repetitive, and since you already have decided the outcome, it might not be that exciting after a few rounds. Especially when the players understand there are no way out, you should just stop. I can guarantee you that NO players will think it is fun to continue playing as soon as they understand it's only a question of time before they die. They will try with things like: "is there a way I can get away? I look for a place to hide!" etc. Your plan is to just deny them all such possibilities, and when they "understand" that, continue to roll dice to see how long you can manage, usually stop being fun.
2. I would consider "cutting to black" BEFORE everyone has died. Play a couple of rounds of desperate combat. Then, let them hear even MORE enemies close in, the just say "and there we leave them". I think you will have a lot more suspense when you start up with the "new" party if they actually don't know exactly what happened to the "first" party. That way it will actually be exciting to go investigating and learn what happened.
3. Be careful with the "auto-spawning". If you give your players the feeling there are an endless horde of goblins there, they might become quite reluctant to go investigating. What do the new party have that'll make them able to succeed where the last part failed. Just having you as a DM on their side this time isn't a very good answer.
Ludo ergo sum!
Why are you starting with the pre-gens at all?
If all the players have created a PC each, then why not start with those PCs?
To give my friends the chance to get a feel for the game before creating a character that is very personal to them. I want to introduce them to the kinds of things to think about and be familiar with when creating a character. My friends have zero point of reference for D&D so we decided they can get their feet wet a bit.