Are you certain your player characters can do that?
Are you planing on giving out Dragon slayer weapons? Those are rare, give +1 to hit, add 3d6 to the damage and are Martial weapons.
A Sorcerer can only use daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaves, and light crossbows. Only Paladins can use Martial weapons, so your Sorcadin can use any weapon.
Are there any Martial weapons a Sorcerer can use?
Single class player characters are always supposed to be stronger than multi-class ones, they trade off or delay the good stuff and get versatility instead.
No matter what they use, the weapons they have aren't any particular use against what you seem to see as the final boss in the story, Nalfeshee aren't dragons after all.
Those are Fiends. I'd suggest you take a hard look at what they are capable of.
I understand that you don't like any of my advice. I'm scrupulous about breaking rules.
I'm not sure whether you've read the document or not... I'm sorry for the confusion.
I know a young red shadow dragons is supposedly a tough fight, even though it's it's CR 13. In the document, I mention once or twice that I am using stats for a brass shadow dragon instead, to make absolutely certain that it is defeatable.
I can and probably should warn them that there will be a dragon featured in the adventure beforehand, which gives them the opportunity to consider a dragon slayer weapon, but I think as long as it keeps within reach it is a very defeatable foe, especially if it's getting smited.
Yes, I know a sorcerer-paladin can use any weapon, I've made one before myself.
Considering the sorcadin player is a min-maxer, and the others are too, I'm not too worried about them being too weak to go toe to toe with any foe I've brought in.
Why are the weapons ineffective against the Nalfeshnee? It is CR 13, a medium encounter by itself. I see it has resistance to cold, fire, lightning and non-magical attacks. They will at least have a magical weapon each, and two of the four are experienced DM's, they'll probably be aware of what a demon can do and choose damage types accordingly. Even if they don't, I don't think it's an unfair BBEG. Horror nimbus is pretty powerful as well, but with a paladins channel divinity to turn fiends, smite, and aura of protection save bonuses...not even taking into account whatever the other players will be able to do...well...those are big assets if they work. I think it's an achievable fight.
And yes. I'm very aware of what fiends and demons are. I'm not dismissing your advice, don't worry. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness and input. I'm just considering them and trying to understand, because as far as I can tell, the enemies aren't *severely* overpowered...
I just meant that Dragon Slayer weapons do no extra damage to Fiends. Sorcadins *are* limited to Sorcerer weapons and armor. That's a problem for them. How big a smite will a Club really be? It's not at all unfair for people not to know what type of critter they find, but the DM needs to consider the power and if they might know what they were seeing or not. Hope the fight goes well if it hasn't already happened.
I doubt it matters, but I have to apologize. I misunderstood the multi-classing rules. When you multi-class as a Sorcerer, the only restriction is that you need a 13 Charisma. The only thing that happens when you mix that with Paladin is that you need a Strength of 13 as well, and you no longer can use Heavy armor. I really do need to learn to look at the books before I shoot off my mouth. Good thing this isn't the Rules & Game Mechanics forum. I'd never hear the end of it.
I had a party hiding out in a tavern when the city was under attack by the Undead. Since they had no intention of leaving and or being heroic to help the city fight back the oncoming horde I had the tavern put under siege.
It was a long fight for survival as the players had to think on their feet and use the resources around them to stave off the oncoming zombie assault. The zombies came in waves smashing through doors and windows and overrunning the place and chasing the players up the three levels of the tavern. Unfortunately, the tavern burned down because of a fireball spell and barrels of ale but the party managed to escape from the upper floors by casting levitate on a table and using it as a 'bridge' to make across to the building next door.
It was a fun encounter that the group talks about often more so blaming each other who was the real cause of the tavern burning down. Some blame the rogue for breaking the caskets other for the wizard sculpting a fireball in the middle of the party.
I doubt it matters, but I have to apologize. I misunderstood the multi-classing rules. When you multi-class as a Sorcerer, the only restriction is that you need a 13 Charisma. The only thing that happens when you mix that with Paladin is that you need a Strength of 13 as well, and you no longer can use Heavy armor. I really do need to learn to look at the books before I shoot off my mouth. Good thing this isn't the Rules & Game Mechanics forum. I'd never hear the end of it.
That's absolutely alright, no worries! 😆
I think that a sorcadin actually can wear heavy armour actually, since he was starting with paladin before multiclassing into sorcerer, thus he is proficient in heavy armour and can cast spells in said armour
I had a party hiding out in a tavern when the city was under attack by the Undead. Since they had no intention of leaving and or being heroic to help the city fight back the oncoming horde I had the tavern put under siege.
It was a long fight for survival as the players had to think on their feet and use the resources around them to stave off the oncoming zombie assault. The zombies came in waves smashing through doors and windows and overrunning the place and chasing the players up the three levels of the tavern. Unfortunately, the tavern burned down because of a fireball spell and barrels of ale but the party managed to escape from the upper floors by casting levitate on a table and using it as a 'bridge' to make across to the building next door.
It was a fun encounter that the group talks about often more so blaming each other who was the real cause of the tavern burning down. Some blame the rogue for breaking the caskets other for the wizard sculpting a fireball in the middle of the party.
Good times.
Absolute chaos! That does sound like it was a lot of fun, haha!
Player's Handbook, Chapter 7, under Customization Options.
"Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple and martial weapons."
Nah, you take all the proficiencies of your original class first, which in this case is paladin, which includes heavy armour... Then you take the proficiencies you don't have of the second class you multiclass into, so in this case, the proficiencies the sorcerer has.
If he started with sorcerer first and then moved into paladin, yeah he wouldn't have heavy armour proficiency. But since he started in paladin, he does because he started out with heavy armour proficiency already
It's your game, you can break the rules if you like and I'm not telling you otherwise. I'm just trying to help. Check the Player's Handbook yourself if you like. Sorcerer in and of itself has only one restriction, you need a Charisma score no less than 13. Paladins require a 13 Strength, which you can get around with the Finesse rules, and their ability to wear Heavy armor is removed when they multi-class into Sorcerer, no matter which order they take the classes in.
I made a character who started out as a Scout Rogue, and became a Fighter. I was surprised when I tired to equip some Heavy armor, and wasn't proficient in wearing it, so I had find out why. I learned that in that case, If I wanted heavy armor, I'd have had to start out as a Fighter, so it did matter what order I chose between the two classes.
It's your game, and you can break the rules if you like and I'm not telling you otherwise. I'm just trying to help. Check the Player's Handbook yourself if you like. Sorcerer in and of itself has only one restriction, you need a Charisma score no less than 13. Paladins require a 13 Strength, which you can get around with the Finesse rules, and their ability to wear Heavy armor is removed when they multi-class into Sorcerer, no matter which order they take the classes in.
I made a character who started out as a Scout Rogue, and became a Fighter. I was surprised when I tired to equip some Heavy armor, and I had to ask why. I learned that in that case, If I wanted heavy armor, I'd have had to start out as a Fighter, so it did matter what order in that case.
I don't like to fight, but I am 100% certain you have misread, or misunderstand the basics of multiclassing. Yes, paladin needs 13 strength to multiclass. No problem there, he is a paladin after all. Charisma, also no problem, also high because he's a paladin.
But you don't lose your proficiencies you already know by multiclassing, that's not how it works. I've multiclassed, I've been in half a dozen games over the years with experienced dungeon masters...ya don't lose proficiencies by multiclassing.
Yes, he is starting out as a paladin, so that means he also starts with proficiency in heavy armour. He doesn't lose that if he takes sorcerer later.
But anyway, not a rules discussion, so whatever, it's okay 😅
Just for fun create a multi-class character in DDB and see how things are handled.
Okay, I just did...paladin 1st level, sorcerer 2nd level... it has heavy armour proficiency... everything seems fine
Thought that would be the case and as you pointed out in the PHB the Sorcerer does not gain additional proficiencies based on the Multi-class Prof table when you begin.
But anyway, not a rules discussion, so whatever, it's okay 😅
Just for fun create a multi-class character in DDB and see how things are handled.
Okay, I just did...paladin 1st level, sorcerer 2nd level... it has heavy armour proficiency... everything seems fine
Thought that would be the case and as you pointed out in the PHB the Sorcerer does not gain additional proficiencies based on the Multi-class Prof table when you begin.
Alrighty cool, glad I've got my head screwed on straight 😅
Aaanyway this discussion got a little off topic, but that's okay
I had a party hiding out in a tavern when the city was under attack by the Undead. Since they had no intention of leaving and or being heroic to help the city fight back the oncoming horde I had the tavern put under siege.
It was a long fight for survival as the players had to think on their feet and use the resources around them to stave off the oncoming zombie assault. The zombies came in waves smashing through doors and windows and overrunning the place and chasing the players up the three levels of the tavern. Unfortunately, the tavern burned down because of a fireball spell and barrels of ale but the party managed to escape from the upper floors by casting levitate on a table and using it as a 'bridge' to make across to the building next door.
It was a fun encounter that the group talks about often more so blaming each other who was the real cause of the tavern burning down. Some blame the rogue for breaking the caskets other for the wizard sculpting a fireball in the middle of the party.
Good times.
Absolute chaos! That does sound like it was a lot of fun, haha!
I guess what I was trying to get across is that while you can have this undead siege very large in scope where the city is being overrun you can put the players in a more intimate setting where maybe they are protecting a city block or an orphanage full of kids where you can narrow the focus of the game.
It's your game, you can break the rules if you like and I'm not telling you otherwise. I'm just trying to help. Check the Player's Handbook yourself if you like. Sorcerer in and of itself has only one restriction, you need a Charisma score no less than 13. Paladins require a 13 Strength, which you can get around with the Finesse rules, and their ability to wear Heavy armor is removed when they multi-class into Sorcerer, no matter which order they take the classes in.
I made a character who started out as a Scout Rogue, and became a Fighter. I was surprised when I tired to equip some Heavy armor, and wasn't proficient in wearing it, so I had find out why. I learned that in that case, If I wanted heavy armor, I'd have had to start out as a Fighter, so it did matter what order I chose between the two classes.
Somerton is correct, when you start at level 1 with a class, you gain all of the starting proficiencies of that class. When you multiclass at level 2 or onwards into an additional class (obviously satisfying the multiclass requirements), you refer to Chapter 6 multiclassing table and look up the class that you are multiclassing into to see what additional proficiencies or skills you gain.
If you start as a Sorcerer at level 1 and multiclass into a Paladin at level 2, you gain in addition all weapon proficiencies, light & medium armor and shields from the multiclass. Not heavy armor.
If you start as a Paladin at level 1 (you have proficiency in all weapons, armor and shields already to start with) and you multiclass at level 2 into Sorcerer, Chapter 6 p164 table shows you that you gain no new skills or proficiencies by multiclassing into Sorcerer.
If you start as a Sorcerer at level 1 and multi-class into a Paladin at level 2, you gain in addition all weapon proficiency, light & medium armor, and shields, from then multi-class. Not heavy armor. Check. I have no problem with that.
If you start as a Paladin at level 1 (you have proficiency in all weapons, armor and shields already to start with) and you multi-class at level 2 into Sorcerer, Chapter 6 p164 table shows you that you gain no new skills or proficiency by multi-classing into Sorcerer. Again, check. I have no problem with that.
You said it yourself, so let me move your words. If you start as a Paladin at level 1 (you have proficiency in all weapons, armor and shields already to start with) and you multi-class at level 2 into Sorcerer, Chapter 6 p164 table shows you that you gain no new skills or proficiency by multi-classing into Sorcerer, not heavy armor.
Yes, the character sheet seem to let you do that, but that's a bug. There are a lot of things the character sheet generated by the tool allows because it has no way of telling before hand what you're doing. It lets you wield more weapons than you have hands to hold them in, it lets you use weapons as a bonus action that you don't have the requirements to use, and it will let you wear multiple suits of armor at the same time, including heavy ones.
So yes, Red, Somerton is correct, and so are you, so I hope neither of you minds that I've used your own words, to prove my point. The character is at level 13, so maybe they took care of the problem somewhere along the way. No disrespect to either of you was intended.
I'm not sure whether you've read the document or not... I'm sorry for the confusion.
I know a young red shadow dragons is supposedly a tough fight, even though it's it's CR 13. In the document, I mention once or twice that I am using stats for a brass shadow dragon instead, to make absolutely certain that it is defeatable.
I can and probably should warn them that there will be a dragon featured in the adventure beforehand, which gives them the opportunity to consider a dragon slayer weapon, but I think as long as it keeps within reach it is a very defeatable foe, especially if it's getting smited.
Yes, I know a sorcerer-paladin can use any weapon, I've made one before myself.
Considering the sorcadin player is a min-maxer, and the others are too, I'm not too worried about them being too weak to go toe to toe with any foe I've brought in.
Why are the weapons ineffective against the Nalfeshnee? It is CR 13, a medium encounter by itself. I see it has resistance to cold, fire, lightning and non-magical attacks. They will at least have a magical weapon each, and two of the four are experienced DM's, they'll probably be aware of what a demon can do and choose damage types accordingly. Even if they don't, I don't think it's an unfair BBEG. Horror nimbus is pretty powerful as well, but with a paladins channel divinity to turn fiends, smite, and aura of protection save bonuses...not even taking into account whatever the other players will be able to do...well...those are big assets if they work. I think it's an achievable fight.
And yes. I'm very aware of what fiends and demons are. I'm not dismissing your advice, don't worry. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness and input. I'm just considering them and trying to understand, because as far as I can tell, the enemies aren't *severely* overpowered...
I just meant that Dragon Slayer weapons do no extra damage to Fiends. Sorcadins *are* limited to Sorcerer weapons and armor. That's a problem for them. How big a smite will a Club really be? It's not at all unfair for people not to know what type of critter they find, but the DM needs to consider the power and if they might know what they were seeing or not. Hope the fight goes well if it hasn't already happened.
<Insert clever signature here>
I doubt it matters, but I have to apologize. I misunderstood the multi-classing rules. When you multi-class as a Sorcerer, the only restriction is that you need a 13 Charisma. The only thing that happens when you mix that with Paladin is that you need a Strength of 13 as well, and you no longer can use Heavy armor. I really do need to learn to look at the books before I shoot off my mouth. Good thing this isn't the Rules & Game Mechanics forum. I'd never hear the end of it.
<Insert clever signature here>
I had a party hiding out in a tavern when the city was under attack by the Undead. Since they had no intention of leaving and or being heroic to help the city fight back the oncoming horde I had the tavern put under siege.
It was a long fight for survival as the players had to think on their feet and use the resources around them to stave off the oncoming zombie assault. The zombies came in waves smashing through doors and windows and overrunning the place and chasing the players up the three levels of the tavern. Unfortunately, the tavern burned down because of a fireball spell and barrels of ale but the party managed to escape from the upper floors by casting levitate on a table and using it as a 'bridge' to make across to the building next door.
It was a fun encounter that the group talks about often more so blaming each other who was the real cause of the tavern burning down. Some blame the rogue for breaking the caskets other for the wizard sculpting a fireball in the middle of the party.
Good times.
That's absolutely alright, no worries! 😆
I think that a sorcadin actually can wear heavy armour actually, since he was starting with paladin before multiclassing into sorcerer, thus he is proficient in heavy armour and can cast spells in said armour
Absolute chaos! That does sound like it was a lot of fun, haha!
Player's Handbook, Chapter 7, under Customization Options.
"Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple and martial weapons."
<Insert clever signature here>
Nah, you take all the proficiencies of your original class first, which in this case is paladin, which includes heavy armour... Then you take the proficiencies you don't have of the second class you multiclass into, so in this case, the proficiencies the sorcerer has.
If he started with sorcerer first and then moved into paladin, yeah he wouldn't have heavy armour proficiency. But since he started in paladin, he does because he started out with heavy armour proficiency already
It's your game, you can break the rules if you like and I'm not telling you otherwise. I'm just trying to help. Check the Player's Handbook yourself if you like. Sorcerer in and of itself has only one restriction, you need a Charisma score no less than 13. Paladins require a 13 Strength, which you can get around with the Finesse rules, and their ability to wear Heavy armor is removed when they multi-class into Sorcerer, no matter which order they take the classes in.
I made a character who started out as a Scout Rogue, and became a Fighter. I was surprised when I tired to equip some Heavy armor, and wasn't proficient in wearing it, so I had find out why. I learned that in that case, If I wanted heavy armor, I'd have had to start out as a Fighter, so it did matter what order I chose between the two classes.
<Insert clever signature here>
I don't like to fight, but I am 100% certain you have misread, or misunderstand the basics of multiclassing. Yes, paladin needs 13 strength to multiclass. No problem there, he is a paladin after all. Charisma, also no problem, also high because he's a paladin.
But you don't lose your proficiencies you already know by multiclassing, that's not how it works. I've multiclassed, I've been in half a dozen games over the years with experienced dungeon masters...ya don't lose proficiencies by multiclassing.
Yes, he is starting out as a paladin, so that means he also starts with proficiency in heavy armour. He doesn't lose that if he takes sorcerer later.
He is starting in the right order.
But anyway, not a rules discussion, so whatever, it's okay 😅
Just for fun create a multi-class character in DDB and see how things are handled.
Okay, I just did...paladin 1st level, sorcerer 2nd level... it has heavy armour proficiency... everything seems fine
Thought that would be the case and as you pointed out in the PHB the Sorcerer does not gain additional proficiencies based on the Multi-class Prof table when you begin.
Alrighty cool, glad I've got my head screwed on straight 😅
Aaanyway this discussion got a little off topic, but that's okay
Sorry Geann if I sound like I'm being a jerk or anything, I don't mean to
I guess what I was trying to get across is that while you can have this undead siege very large in scope where the city is being overrun you can put the players in a more intimate setting where maybe they are protecting a city block or an orphanage full of kids where you can narrow the focus of the game.
It's ok. I'm the one who is being a jerk. I keep trying to convince you of something and I have no way of backing myself up. Sorry for the trouble.
<Insert clever signature here>
Somerton is correct, when you start at level 1 with a class, you gain all of the starting proficiencies of that class. When you multiclass at level 2 or onwards into an additional class (obviously satisfying the multiclass requirements), you refer to Chapter 6 multiclassing table and look up the class that you are multiclassing into to see what additional proficiencies or skills you gain.
If you start as a Sorcerer at level 1 and multiclass into a Paladin at level 2, you gain in addition all weapon proficiencies, light & medium armor and shields from the multiclass. Not heavy armor.
If you start as a Paladin at level 1 (you have proficiency in all weapons, armor and shields already to start with) and you multiclass at level 2 into Sorcerer, Chapter 6 p164 table shows you that you gain no new skills or proficiencies by multiclassing into Sorcerer.
If you start as a Sorcerer at level 1 and multi-class into a Paladin at level 2, you gain in addition all weapon proficiency, light & medium armor, and shields, from then multi-class. Not heavy armor. Check. I have no problem with that.
If you start as a Paladin at level 1 (you have proficiency in all weapons, armor and shields already to start with) and you multi-class at level 2 into Sorcerer, Chapter 6 p164 table shows you that you gain no new skills or proficiency by multi-classing into Sorcerer. Again, check. I have no problem with that.
You said it yourself, so let me move your words. If you start as a Paladin at level 1 (you have proficiency in all weapons, armor and shields already to start with) and you multi-class at level 2 into Sorcerer, Chapter 6 p164 table shows you that you gain no new skills or proficiency by multi-classing into Sorcerer, not heavy armor.
Yes, the character sheet seem to let you do that, but that's a bug. There are a lot of things the character sheet generated by the tool allows because it has no way of telling before hand what you're doing. It lets you wield more weapons than you have hands to hold them in, it lets you use weapons as a bonus action that you don't have the requirements to use, and it will let you wear multiple suits of armor at the same time, including heavy ones.
So yes, Red, Somerton is correct, and so are you, so I hope neither of you minds that I've used your own words, to prove my point. The character is at level 13, so maybe they took care of the problem somewhere along the way. No disrespect to either of you was intended.
<Insert clever signature here>