So in the last session, I ran the party got lost. Well, not really, lost they were given incorrect directions and ended up in Waterdeep which was nowhere they were supposed to go. Not wanting to run into this problem again the group decided they wanted to buy a world map (sword coast / faerun). So that got me to thinking how much it would cost, in a city like Waterdeep, a map like this one from WotC website (Faerun) would cost in a cartographer shop? I know some books can run as much as 25 gold pieces but something this detailed as a map I was thinking something closer to 100gp to 200gp. Now what I can also do is chop the map up and it at cheaper prices and let them decide what they want or is relevant to their journey.
So I think I have some price points for a map but wanted to get a second opinion on pricing and if there is a cause of concern giving them such a document?
I think this is one of those subjective things that depends on the world you are creating as a DM, or if an existing world, your intepretation. To my mind, something like a common map would not be that expensive out of necessity. In a world without Google Maps or the internet, most people are going to need a map to navigate, whether that be sailors travelling the seas or merchants moving their good around. If a map was too expensive, then being a merchant or trader wouldn't be viable, so people wouldn't do it. So while by no means cheap, I don't think it would be extorionately expensive.
As for your second question, you don't have to lock yourself in. Just because they have a map doesn't guarantee they are never going to get lost. You still have to be able to read the map and that takes some degree of skill. You could always have them roll to use the map if need be.
I think this is one of those subjective things that depends on the world you are creating as a DM, or if an existing world, your intepretation. To my mind, something like a common map would not be that expensive out of necessity. In a world without Google Maps or the internet, most people are going to need a map to navigate, whether that be sailors travelling the seas or merchants moving their good around. If a map was too expensive, then being a merchant or trader wouldn't be viable, so people wouldn't do it. So while by no means cheap, I don't think it would be extorionately expensive.
As for your second question, you don't have to lock yourself in. Just because they have a map doesn't guarantee they are never going to get lost. You still have to be able to read the map and that takes some degree of skill. You could always have them roll to use the map if need be.
You made some good points here things I had not considered. I was just focused on this one map and the detail it gives wondering if something that information would be expensive or not. As for still getting lost, I think that is true cases like that would still occur but knowing my group they will argue "We have a map!" so that is where I need to think more and balance how much of a map is given to the players because that is a DM debate I could do without.
I think a good map of the world would be expensive as not everyone can draw a map, even less the size of a large world map, especially most notably with enought good accuracy. For all these reasons, i assume such a map would take time, travel and research, and only a few reputed cartographer would produce such map. Even reproduction would likely take time and skills to do. Something like 250 gp would not be unreasonable for a large world map with of the realms, cities, roads, rivers and forest etc
I think a good map of the world would be expensive as not everyone can draw a map, even less the size of a large world map, especially most notably with enought good accuracy. For all these reasons, i assume such a map would take time, travel and research, and only a few reputed cartographer would produce such map. Even reproduction would likely take time and skills to do. Something like 250 gp would not be unreasonable for a large world map with of the realms, cities, roads, rivers and forest etc
With respect, I disagree. At 250gp you're effectively saying that a map would cost the same as a chariot, a piece of splint armour or 30 nights in an aristocratic inn (a night's stay costs 8gp at such a place). Yes, production would be expensive, but with printing presses (books exist in the world of D&D), it would not be that hard to reprodude a map.
I think a good map of the world would be expensive as not everyone can draw a map, even less the size of a large world map, especially most notably with enought good accuracy. For all these reasons, i assume such a map would take time, travel and research, and only a few reputed cartographer would produce such map. Even reproduction would likely take time and skills to do. Something like 250 gp would not be unreasonable for a large world map with of the realms, cities, roads, rivers and forest etc
With respect, I disagree. At 250gp you're effectively saying that a map would cost the same as a chariot, a piece of splint armour or 30 nights in an aristocratic inn (a night's stay costs 8gp at such a place). Yes, production would be expensive, but with printing presses (books exist in the world of D&D), it would not be that hard to reprodude a map.
I dont know if printing press really exist in D&D's era. It first appeared in the 1400's, and it was not largely commercialized before a few decades.
Perhaps, but we also have the aid of magic and spells in the world of D&D. Regardless, as I said, while not cheap I don't think it would be prohibitively expensive, otherwise no one would buy it and you'd never make any money. That's just simple economics, and 250gp is very expensive for a map. By today's standards, 30 nights in an aristocratic inn would be the equivlant of 2 fornight vacations in a 7 star + hotel costing thousands of dollars.
I think a good map of the world would be expensive as not everyone can draw a map, even less the size of a large world map, especially most notably with enought good accuracy. For all these reasons, i assume such a map would take time, travel and research, and only a few reputed cartographer would produce such map. Even reproduction would likely take time and skills to do. Something like 250 gp would not be unreasonable for a large world map with of the realms, cities, roads, rivers and forest etc
With respect, I disagree. At 250gp you're effectively saying that a map would cost the same as a chariot, a piece of splint armour or 30 nights in an aristocratic inn (a night's stay costs 8gp at such a place). Yes, production would be expensive, but with printing presses (books exist in the world of D&D), it would not be that hard to reprodude a map.
I dont know if printing press really exist in D&D's era. It first appeared in the 1400's, and it was not largely commercialized before a few decades.
Coincidently I was looking up information about libraries in Waterdeep in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist city info section and ran across this interesting tidbit.
"Lastly, no city in the world is as literate as Waterdeep. Oghma’s priests from the Font of Knowledge offer free instruction in reading to all who desire it, and the city has over thirty publishers of broadsheets in addition to chapbook printers and book publishers. Large paper advertisements are plastered onto alley walls, and smaller ones are passed out by those hired by businesses to trumpet their services. Printed menus can be found posted in the windows of most eateries and are handed out to those who dine within. Admittedly, you’ll see less reading material in the Dock Ward and the Field Ward, but this fact is notable only because of its preponderance elsewhere."
So printing press could very well exist in large populous cities.
To my mind, something like a common map would not be that expensive out of necessity. In a world without Google Maps or the internet, most people are going to need a map to navigate, whether that be sailors travelling the seas or merchants moving their good around.
Alternately, maps could be expensive precisely because having one could give you an advantage on the competition, and are thus valuable, or because they are viewed as a luxury. Most people in the world, even merchants, might never need one if they simply stick to known roads and routes.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Information is unclear in Forgotten Realms. That is it's hard to tell what "everyone" would know about geography etc. Candlekeep Mysteries hand waves a copy of a "typical" (non magical) book at 100 gp. 200 gp if translated. So presuming maps are also copied by hand, and a world map is at least a books worth of information, the 100-200 gp range isn't that all outrageous in the admittedly inconsistent Forgotten Realms economy.
Oh, Works of the Avowed (which is sort of like Candlekeep Press) are in the 50 gp - 100 gp range. And really I'm seeing the maps as being sort of like an almanac in equivalency knowledge/value so that might be a better range if you want to presume greater navigational.geographical literacy.
In Star Wars games, all editions I believe, hyperspace routes are worth serious credit, so you could have a map that offers basic spatial relations of lands and landmarks, but you may have a more expensive map that provides routes, this will probably be more valuable for maritime maps with currents and such.
I like this thread, I could see a Sage type character needing quite an amount of coin to be outfitted with maps, star charts, almanacs, calendars etc. AD&D had a Dragon Magazine homebrew Sage character class (it was more a dual class or I guess prestige class), how much a map is worth reminds me of that.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
First, regarding how sailors and merchants would need maps to navigate, that's not really true. Most of them will navigate by experience and signposts - merchants will follow roads from place to place, and where they aren't available, they will find a local guide to take them from one place to another. I feel like guides will be a far more common thing to find than maps.
Cartography is a difficult skill, especially to get anything accurate. Here's an example of a map from around 1360:
Where would you say this map is of?
It's called the Gough Map. There's your world map of Great Britain, in a later setting than most Dnd is! I know continents move, but I can assure you GB wasn't that shape!
Maps will be extremely unrealistic. Expect vague understandings of towns being north or south of one another, but otherwise, they are measuring distance in days travel, and doing so without clocks. They are measuring direction whilst following winding paths. They can tell you this city is 5 days travel west of that village, but they can't tell you the exact distance, or even their exact location compared with one another!
The geography of a region will also affect the usefulness of maps - a land with a single, large mountain will have better maps (due to people climbing it to look down) than a fairly flat region where every view is interrupted by the next hillock.
One thing you could introduce to the world (which I am adding to mine) is the Guild of Navigators - people who have traveled far and wide, and can navigate by the sun and stars. Such a guild will hire its members out to people who are aiming to travel through lands only the guild knows the ways in. The best members will be able to find anything, anywhere.
I think that maps in a world where people have spells like fly will vary in accuracy depending on how prevalent magic is in your setting. In a world like Faerun, where there are constant plot hooks around people saving enough money to raise people from the dead (I hate it so much lol) there must be thousands of bored wizards sitting around, who could make good money as skilled cartographers.
The 4th level spell Arcane Eye would be the cartographers favourite tool. You can move the eye 30 feet every 6 seconds, for an hour, with unlimited range. That's 18,000 feet per hour - that's over 3 miles. So you can sit at your writing desk, fly the eye up into the sky far above and look down on the world. There is nothing that says that you can't see both normally, and through the eye - it takes an action only to move it - so you can look at the ground below you, then draw your map.
I'd say they should be able to buy a map of a region or the whole world for 10gp. The world map won't be terribly detailed though.
10 gp seem way too low price to me for a world map. Perhaps for a terribly detailed small region map but
@BKThomson specifically ask how much would cost a highly detailed color world map like this Faerun map in a cartographer shop.
It would probably be the most costly map in the shop, so large it would hang on the wall in a frame. I highly doubt you could pocket it for only 10 gp that's just my 2 cents
So the players bought the map for 250gp. They did not even bat an eye at the price, even as 5th level characters I was thinking they would at least say something because it was a lot of gold for them to spend on something that would be used a minuscule amount in-game.
I based my pricing by using the Hiring (Skilled) expense of 2gp a day and took into account the feedback here that such a map would likely take time to copy by hand or some other means of reproduction. That came out to 4 months a few day's worth of the cartographer's work which I felt was reasonable to get the kind of detail on the map.
If you're the sort of DM who may email or otherwise post hints prior to sessions, you can get them squirrely about their new acquisition if you just share them this:
Perhaps, but we also have the aid of magic and spells in the world of D&D. Regardless, as I said, while not cheap I don't think it would be prohibitively expensive, otherwise no one would buy it and you'd never make any money. That's just simple economics, and 250gp is very expensive for a map. By today's standards, 30 nights in an aristocratic inn would be the equivlant of 2 fornight vacations in a 7 star + hotel costing thousands of dollars.
Is it that expensive though? You only need to buy it once, not for every trip. It should last for years and years. Unless there’s a new game edition coming out, so the game designers decide to make the gods blow up half the continent, which, I guess, does happen a lot. I’d think the bigger issue would be lack of demand. If you’re going from waterdeep to neverwinter, there’s that one road, or you get on a boat. No map required. The realms in general have well-established trade routes between most places the average person would want to go, and lots of the places PCs would be looking for (ruins, cultist hide outs, portals to hell, etc.) won’t be on any maps.
Perhaps, but we also have the aid of magic and spells in the world of D&D. Regardless, as I said, while not cheap I don't think it would be prohibitively expensive, otherwise no one would buy it and you'd never make any money. That's just simple economics, and 250gp is very expensive for a map. By today's standards, 30 nights in an aristocratic inn would be the equivlant of 2 fornight vacations in a 7 star + hotel costing thousands of dollars.
Is it that expensive though? You only need to buy it once, not for every trip. It should last for years and years. Unless there’s a new game edition coming out, so the game designers decide to make the gods blow up half the continent, which, I guess, does happen a lot. I’d think the bigger issue would be lack of demand. If you’re going from waterdeep to neverwinter, there’s that one road, or you get on a boat. No map required. The realms in general have well-established trade routes between most places the average person would want to go, and lots of the places PCs would be looking for (ruins, cultist hide outs, portals to hell, etc.) won’t be on any maps.
Kind of worth noting that the adventurers' life affords the "luxury" of not being as geographically bound as your average NPC/commoner type. Consequently there's a commensurate need for uncommon resources, like maps and other aids that someone who just needs to know the road to market would consider needless extravagance.
Again if you look at the prices of Candlekeep, nonmagical books approach 200 gp (I think translations are doubled, and I'd imagine translating something like Netherese into FR Common vernacular would probably cost even more)*. and I'd say a quality and accurate map of Faerun is easily worth the price of a book in terms of value to owner as well as cost of production.
*Maps of ancient empire correlated to modern maps would be an even more costly cartographic venture ... if you're game puts some thought into how PCs may research locations etc rather than handwavium "the sage tells you, or you're given a map", maps and the like are stuff that can enrich a game, and the cost is part of the fun. Maybe they steal the map National Treasure style.
In the book "Volo's Guide to Cormyr" 2.edition AD&D, there is description of a Scroll shop in Espar. The last column reads: Writings typically cost 5 sp per page, maps 25 to 50 gp each, and scrolls usually run 500 gp per spell or more.
In the book "Volo's Guide to Cormyr" 2.edition AD&D, there is description of a Scroll shop in Espar. The last column reads: Writings typically cost 5 sp per page, maps 25 to 50 gp each, and scrolls usually run 500 gp per spell or more.
Yes, but is that adjusted for 3 and half editions of inflation ....
;)
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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So in the last session, I ran the party got lost. Well, not really, lost they were given incorrect directions and ended up in Waterdeep which was nowhere they were supposed to go. Not wanting to run into this problem again the group decided they wanted to buy a world map (sword coast / faerun). So that got me to thinking how much it would cost, in a city like Waterdeep, a map like this one from WotC website (Faerun) would cost in a cartographer shop? I know some books can run as much as 25 gold pieces but something this detailed as a map I was thinking something closer to 100gp to 200gp. Now what I can also do is chop the map up and it at cheaper prices and let them decide what they want or is relevant to their journey.
So I think I have some price points for a map but wanted to get a second opinion on pricing and if there is a cause of concern giving them such a document?
I think this is one of those subjective things that depends on the world you are creating as a DM, or if an existing world, your intepretation. To my mind, something like a common map would not be that expensive out of necessity. In a world without Google Maps or the internet, most people are going to need a map to navigate, whether that be sailors travelling the seas or merchants moving their good around. If a map was too expensive, then being a merchant or trader wouldn't be viable, so people wouldn't do it. So while by no means cheap, I don't think it would be extorionately expensive.
As for your second question, you don't have to lock yourself in. Just because they have a map doesn't guarantee they are never going to get lost. You still have to be able to read the map and that takes some degree of skill. You could always have them roll to use the map if need be.
You made some good points here things I had not considered. I was just focused on this one map and the detail it gives wondering if something that information would be expensive or not. As for still getting lost, I think that is true cases like that would still occur but knowing my group they will argue "We have a map!" so that is where I need to think more and balance how much of a map is given to the players because that is a DM debate I could do without.
I think a good map of the world would be expensive as not everyone can draw a map, even less the size of a large world map, especially most notably with enought good accuracy. For all these reasons, i assume such a map would take time, travel and research, and only a few reputed cartographer would produce such map. Even reproduction would likely take time and skills to do. Something like 250 gp would not be unreasonable for a large world map with of the realms, cities, roads, rivers and forest etc
With respect, I disagree. At 250gp you're effectively saying that a map would cost the same as a chariot, a piece of splint armour or 30 nights in an aristocratic inn (a night's stay costs 8gp at such a place). Yes, production would be expensive, but with printing presses (books exist in the world of D&D), it would not be that hard to reprodude a map.
I dont know if printing press really exist in D&D's era. It first appeared in the 1400's, and it was not largely commercialized before a few decades.
And i don't even know if they could reproduce a intricatly detailed map of large size. It was designed to reproduce writing of a book. This site says maps reproduction using printing press started in 1800's Mapmaking and Printing | History of Railroads and Maps | Articles and Essays | Railroad Maps, 1828-1900 | Digital Collections | Library of Congress (loc.gov)
Perhaps, but we also have the aid of magic and spells in the world of D&D. Regardless, as I said, while not cheap I don't think it would be prohibitively expensive, otherwise no one would buy it and you'd never make any money. That's just simple economics, and 250gp is very expensive for a map. By today's standards, 30 nights in an aristocratic inn would be the equivlant of 2 fornight vacations in a 7 star + hotel costing thousands of dollars.
I'd say they should be able to buy a map of a region or the whole world for 10gp. The world map won't be terribly detailed though.
I usually just have my players find a map of the relevant area when they sack a castle or something like that. I use an interactive map on Roll20.
Coincidently I was looking up information about libraries in Waterdeep in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist city info section and ran across this interesting tidbit.
"Lastly, no city in the world is as literate as Waterdeep. Oghma’s priests from the Font of Knowledge offer free instruction in reading to all who desire it, and the city has over thirty publishers of broadsheets in addition to chapbook printers and book publishers. Large paper advertisements are plastered onto alley walls, and smaller ones are passed out by those hired by businesses to trumpet their services. Printed menus can be found posted in the windows of most eateries and are handed out to those who dine within. Admittedly, you’ll see less reading material in the Dock Ward and the Field Ward, but this fact is notable only because of its preponderance elsewhere."
So printing press could very well exist in large populous cities.
Alternately, maps could be expensive precisely because having one could give you an advantage on the competition, and are thus valuable, or because they are viewed as a luxury. Most people in the world, even merchants, might never need one if they simply stick to known roads and routes.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Information is unclear in Forgotten Realms. That is it's hard to tell what "everyone" would know about geography etc. Candlekeep Mysteries hand waves a copy of a "typical" (non magical) book at 100 gp. 200 gp if translated. So presuming maps are also copied by hand, and a world map is at least a books worth of information, the 100-200 gp range isn't that all outrageous in the admittedly inconsistent Forgotten Realms economy.
Oh, Works of the Avowed (which is sort of like Candlekeep Press) are in the 50 gp - 100 gp range. And really I'm seeing the maps as being sort of like an almanac in equivalency knowledge/value so that might be a better range if you want to presume greater navigational.geographical literacy.
In Star Wars games, all editions I believe, hyperspace routes are worth serious credit, so you could have a map that offers basic spatial relations of lands and landmarks, but you may have a more expensive map that provides routes, this will probably be more valuable for maritime maps with currents and such.
I like this thread, I could see a Sage type character needing quite an amount of coin to be outfitted with maps, star charts, almanacs, calendars etc. AD&D had a Dragon Magazine homebrew Sage character class (it was more a dual class or I guess prestige class), how much a map is worth reminds me of that.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
First, regarding how sailors and merchants would need maps to navigate, that's not really true. Most of them will navigate by experience and signposts - merchants will follow roads from place to place, and where they aren't available, they will find a local guide to take them from one place to another. I feel like guides will be a far more common thing to find than maps.
Cartography is a difficult skill, especially to get anything accurate. Here's an example of a map from around 1360:
Where would you say this map is of?
It's called the Gough Map. There's your world map of Great Britain, in a later setting than most Dnd is! I know continents move, but I can assure you GB wasn't that shape!
Maps will be extremely unrealistic. Expect vague understandings of towns being north or south of one another, but otherwise, they are measuring distance in days travel, and doing so without clocks. They are measuring direction whilst following winding paths. They can tell you this city is 5 days travel west of that village, but they can't tell you the exact distance, or even their exact location compared with one another!
The geography of a region will also affect the usefulness of maps - a land with a single, large mountain will have better maps (due to people climbing it to look down) than a fairly flat region where every view is interrupted by the next hillock.
One thing you could introduce to the world (which I am adding to mine) is the Guild of Navigators - people who have traveled far and wide, and can navigate by the sun and stars. Such a guild will hire its members out to people who are aiming to travel through lands only the guild knows the ways in. The best members will be able to find anything, anywhere.
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I think that maps in a world where people have spells like fly will vary in accuracy depending on how prevalent magic is in your setting. In a world like Faerun, where there are constant plot hooks around people saving enough money to raise people from the dead (I hate it so much lol) there must be thousands of bored wizards sitting around, who could make good money as skilled cartographers.
The 4th level spell Arcane Eye would be the cartographers favourite tool. You can move the eye 30 feet every 6 seconds, for an hour, with unlimited range. That's 18,000 feet per hour - that's over 3 miles. So you can sit at your writing desk, fly the eye up into the sky far above and look down on the world. There is nothing that says that you can't see both normally, and through the eye - it takes an action only to move it - so you can look at the ground below you, then draw your map.
10 gp seem way too low price to me for a world map. Perhaps for a terribly detailed small region map but
@BKThomson specifically ask how much would cost a highly detailed color world map like this Faerun map in a cartographer shop.
It would probably be the most costly map in the shop, so large it would hang on the wall in a frame. I highly doubt you could pocket it for only 10 gp that's just my 2 cents
So the players bought the map for 250gp. They did not even bat an eye at the price, even as 5th level characters I was thinking they would at least say something because it was a lot of gold for them to spend on something that would be used a minuscule amount in-game.
I based my pricing by using the Hiring (Skilled) expense of 2gp a day and took into account the feedback here that such a map would likely take time to copy by hand or some other means of reproduction. That came out to 4 months a few day's worth of the cartographer's work which I felt was reasonable to get the kind of detail on the map.
If you're the sort of DM who may email or otherwise post hints prior to sessions, you can get them squirrely about their new acquisition if you just share them this:
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Is it that expensive though? You only need to buy it once, not for every trip. It should last for years and years. Unless there’s a new game edition coming out, so the game designers decide to make the gods blow up half the continent, which, I guess, does happen a lot.
I’d think the bigger issue would be lack of demand. If you’re going from waterdeep to neverwinter, there’s that one road, or you get on a boat. No map required. The realms in general have well-established trade routes between most places the average person would want to go, and lots of the places PCs would be looking for (ruins, cultist hide outs, portals to hell, etc.) won’t be on any maps.
Kind of worth noting that the adventurers' life affords the "luxury" of not being as geographically bound as your average NPC/commoner type. Consequently there's a commensurate need for uncommon resources, like maps and other aids that someone who just needs to know the road to market would consider needless extravagance.
Again if you look at the prices of Candlekeep, nonmagical books approach 200 gp (I think translations are doubled, and I'd imagine translating something like Netherese into FR Common vernacular would probably cost even more)*. and I'd say a quality and accurate map of Faerun is easily worth the price of a book in terms of value to owner as well as cost of production.
*Maps of ancient empire correlated to modern maps would be an even more costly cartographic venture ... if you're game puts some thought into how PCs may research locations etc rather than handwavium "the sage tells you, or you're given a map", maps and the like are stuff that can enrich a game, and the cost is part of the fun. Maybe they steal the map National Treasure style.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In the book "Volo's Guide to Cormyr" 2.edition AD&D, there is description of a Scroll shop in Espar. The last column reads: Writings typically cost 5 sp per page, maps 25 to 50 gp each, and scrolls usually run 500 gp per spell or more.
Yes, but is that adjusted for 3 and half editions of inflation ....
;)
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.