TLDR: Looking for suggestions on an easy way to run a business, with upgrade options so they feel some real ownership over this game tavern, with those upgrades factoring into value/expenses and so factoring into how much they make (or could lose) over a tenday. The DMG guide caps at 150gp per tenday which feels too low for our game.
Now, here's the trouble. It's not clear to me how those guys calculate base valuation, or apply the modifiers for profit-loss. It feels like there's a missing piece to this either from WDH or DMG or something – so I looked at those, and WDH references DMG p129 "Running a Business" which is helpful but not terribly so.
Basically, since I've been with these PCs now for over a year, I feel like they don't want to spend a lot of time doing math to figure out profit or loss over a tenday. What I'd like for them is something that is easily trackable, like how much they've invested in their property = a score they can multiply by a dice to generate a total revenue, and subtract from that expenses which I'm happy to keep fixed so as to not overly realism the game.
As it stands, I feel like the process I have is: d100+10 as a base (from DMG) to determine profit or loss over the period (before expenses). Valuation, using that linked homebrew guide, adds to the d100 roll and so the likelihood of generating revenue. I'm not sure where to start exactly – basically they have an empty building with nothing in it, cleaned up though – but figure that could be an easy way to go about it. Then, that final number determines the profit or loss calculation: if they roll the d100 for <20 it's 2d10x10 loss; 21-40 = 1d10x10 loss; 41-60 = 1d10x10 profit; 61-80 = 2d10x10 profit; 81-100 = 3d10x10 profit; 100+ = 4d10x10 profit. All of that is per tenday, and comes in before fixed expenses.
I'm not set on these numbers, especially as even the highest roll could reach only 40g before expenses.
If that's not complicated enough, it looks like the renovation guide there also uses a multiplier for profit and loss, presumably based on total valuation of the property.
Here's the thing – I want my PCs to feel like they can make some money from their property if that's what they use it to do, without it being a crutch for them to make gobs of money quick. A steady but modest stream with some chance involved for scope would be ideal, and not too complicated for them to get lost in the weeds figuring out. I'm thinking to just make a word doc and clean up the menu of upgrade options and costs for them, but still want it to be easy enough that they can quickly figure out profits-losses, and that those profits are substantial enough to incentivize.
So! That was a lot. But does anyone have thoughts, input, or better ideas about running a business/managing improvements and expenses/profits and losses?
D&D isn't really set up to be a very good economic simulator. Really your best bet is probably to just assign a fixed amount that the business earns each week, especially if the PCs aren't going to be handling the day-to-day management of it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I've come up with my own way of calculating business profits for skilled individuals per tenday. It is completely homebrew and doesn't draw on RAW.
Step 1: Determine the type of business you're running
The potential profit/loss your business can make is limited by the type of business you're running. There are 2 things to consider: 1. How big is the business you are running and how profitable is the industry you're in? 2. What are the main abilities required to run your business?
Below I've set up a simple overview that makes sense to me:
(Large business: Requires 4 abilities) Special Organization: 1d100
Example Luca the Warlock wants to set up a business that sells curses at a price. This is a Rare Service that requires Luca to make use of his Charisma and Intelligence.
Step 2: Profit or loss After having established the type of business and the abilities required to run it, it is time to find out how proficient you are with said abilities and how lucky you are with the environment.
1. Choose what ability your character wants to contribute with. A character can only choose a single ability, of which it adds its ability modifier to the profit/loss roll (third sub-step). If possible, a character must choose a required ability that has yet to be contributed towards. Contributing with an ability that is already covered adds half of the lowest modifier to the highest modifier of that particular ability. Contributing with an ability that is not required to run the business counts as +1. A required skill that is not contributed towards counts as +0. Round up when determining the individual contribution.
2. Divide the total contribution modifier with the number of required skills. Round up.
3. Roll 1d20 and add the calculated profit/loss modifier. The final score tells us whether or not you have made a profit or a loss, and gives us a multiplier to apply to the next step (calculating profit/loss):
Score
Multiplier
1
-5
2-3
-4
4-5
-3
6-7
-2
8-9
-1
10-11
+1
12-13
+1
14-15
+2
16-17
+3
18-19
+4
20-21
+5
22-23
+6
24-25
+7
26-27
+8
28-29
+9
30
+10
Example Luca has a +5 to his Charisma and a +2 to his Intelligence, so he choses to make use of his Charisma. Seeing as Luca is a single person who focuses all his time on his Charisma (e.g. casting spells and attending to customers), there's not enough time to make proper use of his Intelligence (e.g. investigating business opportunities and planning ahead) and therefore counts as +0. The average of 5+0 is 2.5, rounded up to 3. Luca therefore gets a +3 to his 1d20 roll that determines whether or not he has made a profit or a loss. Had Luca instead partnered up with Dudum the Wizard, with an Intelligence modifier of +5, the average would instead have been 5 ((5+5)/2). Darrel the Sorcerer wants in on the action as he doesn't want to bother setting up a business of his own. Choosing his +4 Charisma modifier he assists Luca with customer service so Luca can focus on spellcasting. It helps but doesn't add anything to the business that Luca couldn't have done on his own. Darrel adds half his Charisma modifier (2) to Luca's (5). Raviera the Barbarian wants to help! She moves boxes of ingredients with her mighty Strength (+5). However, while this helps, it is not necessary in order to run the business, and her contribution therefore only counts as a +1. The total Profit/Loss modifier is now: ((5+3)+5+1)/2= +7 They roll 1d20 that comes out as 10 and adds their +7 modifier for a total of 17.
Step 3: Calculate profit/loss
Now that you know the potential of the business you run, how well you have contributed with the abilities needed to run it, as well as the consequences of the unpredictable business environment, it is time to calculate the profits and losses.
1. Roll the die matching the type and size of business you're running (see step 1). The number on the die equals gold in tens (1 =10g)
2. Multiply the result with the profit/loss multiplier found in the prior step.
Example After one tenday of working in the curse-selling shop, Luca and friends are sure they've made money, but how much? Rolling 1d10, that comes out as a 5, they calculate that they have made a total of 150g (50*3) in the period!
Your players can of course hire unskilled/skilled hirelings to run the business in their absence. They modify your Profit/Loss roll according to their stats. As a DM, keeping updated on your PCs businesses while they're out adventuring (rolling the dice every tenday) can also help you add flavor to your world. E.g how would you explain a big loss during the first month? Maybe a local conflict has broken out? Perhaps there's been a drought?
Overview of profit potential
Assumptions:
10 characters has +5 in required abilities The rest has no required abilities.
OP - yeah, there is definitely something missing from their calculations but I like the concept of what they are working on even if without the entire story. The thought of an upkeep per month, added choices giving the player additional downtime choices as well as lifestyle scale seem to be a nice path forward.
homebrew idea: now I really like the direction this is going. The idea of tying the die roll to the ability score modifier for profit or loss is nothing short of genius.
I would say that a interesting thing to do would be to base there income off of there fame in that town and the more stuff they do to benefit the town the more income they receive from traffic at the tavern. I don't think there is a way to attach a great monetary value to upgrades other than drawing in merchants and travelers, or if there is competition siphoning money and patrons to them.
It's official d&d content that goes in depth into running you adventuring party as business. Everything from positions/jobs in the company, downtime activities, headquarter options, ranks for the company, hirelings skilled and unskilled, rival companies, marketing etc.
The lv1-7 module in the book is also probably the most underappreciated official adventure.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
My PCs have procured a run-down manor that, following a renovation, can be customized as they choose. I sent them a slightly modified version of this list of things they could do to their new property: https://dndudes.obsidianportal.com/wikis/trollskull-manor-renovations
TLDR: Looking for suggestions on an easy way to run a business, with upgrade options so they feel some real ownership over this game tavern, with those upgrades factoring into value/expenses and so factoring into how much they make (or could lose) over a tenday. The DMG guide caps at 150gp per tenday which feels too low for our game.
Now, here's the trouble. It's not clear to me how those guys calculate base valuation, or apply the modifiers for profit-loss. It feels like there's a missing piece to this either from WDH or DMG or something – so I looked at those, and WDH references DMG p129 "Running a Business" which is helpful but not terribly so.
Basically, since I've been with these PCs now for over a year, I feel like they don't want to spend a lot of time doing math to figure out profit or loss over a tenday. What I'd like for them is something that is easily trackable, like how much they've invested in their property = a score they can multiply by a dice to generate a total revenue, and subtract from that expenses which I'm happy to keep fixed so as to not overly realism the game.
As it stands, I feel like the process I have is: d100+10 as a base (from DMG) to determine profit or loss over the period (before expenses). Valuation, using that linked homebrew guide, adds to the d100 roll and so the likelihood of generating revenue. I'm not sure where to start exactly – basically they have an empty building with nothing in it, cleaned up though – but figure that could be an easy way to go about it. Then, that final number determines the profit or loss calculation: if they roll the d100 for <20 it's 2d10x10 loss; 21-40 = 1d10x10 loss; 41-60 = 1d10x10 profit; 61-80 = 2d10x10 profit; 81-100 = 3d10x10 profit; 100+ = 4d10x10 profit. All of that is per tenday, and comes in before fixed expenses.
I'm not set on these numbers, especially as even the highest roll could reach only 40g before expenses.
If that's not complicated enough, it looks like the renovation guide there also uses a multiplier for profit and loss, presumably based on total valuation of the property.
Here's the thing – I want my PCs to feel like they can make some money from their property if that's what they use it to do, without it being a crutch for them to make gobs of money quick. A steady but modest stream with some chance involved for scope would be ideal, and not too complicated for them to get lost in the weeds figuring out. I'm thinking to just make a word doc and clean up the menu of upgrade options and costs for them, but still want it to be easy enough that they can quickly figure out profits-losses, and that those profits are substantial enough to incentivize.
So! That was a lot. But does anyone have thoughts, input, or better ideas about running a business/managing improvements and expenses/profits and losses?
D&D isn't really set up to be a very good economic simulator. Really your best bet is probably to just assign a fixed amount that the business earns each week, especially if the PCs aren't going to be handling the day-to-day management of it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I've come up with my own way of calculating business profits for skilled individuals per tenday. It is completely homebrew and doesn't draw on RAW.
Step 1: Determine the type of business you're running
The potential profit/loss your business can make is limited by the type of business you're running. There are 2 things to consider:
1. How big is the business you are running and how profitable is the industry you're in?
2. What are the main abilities required to run your business?
Below I've set up a simple overview that makes sense to me:
(Small business: Requires 1 ability)
Street vendor, trader: 1d4
Craft/service: 1d6
(Small business: Requires 2 abilities)
Rare Craft/Service: 1d12
(Medium business: Requires 3 abilities)
Guild: 1d20
(Large business: Requires 4 abilities)
Special Organization: 1d100
Example
Luca the Warlock wants to set up a business that sells curses at a price. This is a Rare Service that requires Luca to make use of his Charisma and Intelligence.
Step 2: Profit or loss
After having established the type of business and the abilities required to run it, it is time to find out how proficient you are with said abilities and how lucky you are with the environment.
1. Choose what ability your character wants to contribute with. A character can only choose a single ability, of which it adds its ability modifier to the profit/loss roll (third sub-step). If possible, a character must choose a required ability that has yet to be contributed towards. Contributing with an ability that is already covered adds half of the lowest modifier to the highest modifier of that particular ability. Contributing with an ability that is not required to run the business counts as +1. A required skill that is not contributed towards counts as +0. Round up when determining the individual contribution.
2. Divide the total contribution modifier with the number of required skills. Round up.
3. Roll 1d20 and add the calculated profit/loss modifier. The final score tells us whether or not you have made a profit or a loss, and gives us a multiplier to apply to the next step (calculating profit/loss):
Example
Luca has a +5 to his Charisma and a +2 to his Intelligence, so he choses to make use of his Charisma. Seeing as Luca is a single person who focuses all his time on his Charisma (e.g. casting spells and attending to customers), there's not enough time to make proper use of his Intelligence (e.g. investigating business opportunities and planning ahead) and therefore counts as +0. The average of 5+0 is 2.5, rounded up to 3. Luca therefore gets a +3 to his 1d20 roll that determines whether or not he has made a profit or a loss.
Had Luca instead partnered up with Dudum the Wizard, with an Intelligence modifier of +5, the average would instead have been 5 ((5+5)/2).
Darrel the Sorcerer wants in on the action as he doesn't want to bother setting up a business of his own. Choosing his +4 Charisma modifier he assists Luca with customer service so Luca can focus on spellcasting. It helps but doesn't add anything to the business that Luca couldn't have done on his own. Darrel adds half his Charisma modifier (2) to Luca's (5).
Raviera the Barbarian wants to help! She moves boxes of ingredients with her mighty Strength (+5). However, while this helps, it is not necessary in order to run the business, and her contribution therefore only counts as a +1.
The total Profit/Loss modifier is now: ((5+3)+5+1)/2= +7
They roll 1d20 that comes out as 10 and adds their +7 modifier for a total of 17.
Step 3: Calculate profit/loss
Now that you know the potential of the business you run, how well you have contributed with the abilities needed to run it, as well as the consequences of the unpredictable business environment, it is time to calculate the profits and losses.
1. Roll the die matching the type and size of business you're running (see step 1). The number on the die equals gold in tens (1 =10g)
2. Multiply the result with the profit/loss multiplier found in the prior step.
Example
After one tenday of working in the curse-selling shop, Luca and friends are sure they've made money, but how much? Rolling 1d10, that comes out as a 5, they calculate that they have made a total of 150g (50*3) in the period!
Your players can of course hire unskilled/skilled hirelings to run the business in their absence. They modify your Profit/Loss roll according to their stats.
As a DM, keeping updated on your PCs businesses while they're out adventuring (rolling the dice every tenday) can also help you add flavor to your world.
E.g how would you explain a big loss during the first month? Maybe a local conflict has broken out? Perhaps there's been a drought?
Overview of profit potential
Assumptions:
The rest has no required abilities.
Business nr. of People
1
2
3
4
10
20
Street Vendor
80g
160g
200g
280g
440g
640g
Craft/Service
120g
240g
300g
420g
660g
960g
Rare Craft/Service
120g
240g
360g
480g
720g
1080g
Guild
200g
400g
400g
600g
1000g
1800g
Organization
1000g
1000g
2000g
2000g
5000g
10000g
Average per person
Street Vendor
80g
80g
54g
50g
44g
32g
Craft/Service
120g
120g
100g
105g
66g
48g
Rare Craft/Service
120g
120g
120g
120g
72g
54g
Guild
200g
200g
134g
150g
100g
90g
Organization
1000g
500g
667g
500g
500g
500g
*cast revivify*
OP - yeah, there is definitely something missing from their calculations but I like the concept of what they are working on even if without the entire story. The thought of an upkeep per month, added choices giving the player additional downtime choices as well as lifestyle scale seem to be a nice path forward.
homebrew idea: now I really like the direction this is going. The idea of tying the die roll to the ability score modifier for profit or loss is nothing short of genius.
I would say that a interesting thing to do would be to base there income off of there fame in that town and the more stuff they do to benefit the town the more income they receive from traffic at the tavern. I don't think there is a way to attach a great monetary value to upgrades other than drawing in merchants and travelers, or if there is competition siphoning money and patrons to them.
The Acquisitions Incorporated book.
It's official d&d content that goes in depth into running you adventuring party as business. Everything from positions/jobs in the company, downtime activities, headquarter options, ranks for the company, hirelings skilled and unskilled, rival companies, marketing etc.
The lv1-7 module in the book is also probably the most underappreciated official adventure.