We are working through the Lost Mine of Phandelver with a few minor changes
I started them at the funeral of the Rockseekers Patriarch
at this funeral a black spider shaped cloud passes over the moon prior to all hell breaking loose
When the funeral pyre is lit a thick purple fog wafts through the funeral party and knocks all the PC's unconscious
They awaken in the Rockseekers home in the locked "hall of Justice" which is being used currently as a holding cell. Gundren Rockseeker has been imprisoned with them.
Because the PC's were successful in freeing Gundren (as well as Nundo, who was being tortured in a different room by a cragmaw goblin) Gundren asks for their assistance in bringing the mining supplies to Phandalin and Gundren and Nundo take off on horseback to Phandalin ahead of you. (riddle puzzle and first battle with Orc and a Goblin
1rst issue I am having is that I have 2 young players (9yrold &13yrold) Who are unsure of roleplaying although one is a drama club child and the other only plays RPG video games
2nd issue I have one player who is being very pushy and will not let the other PC's do anything other than what he wants (they want to explore the town, talk to NPC's, do perception/wisdom checks, railroads them into only doing his suggestion for the answer to the riddle etc.)
Due to those issues I have a group who hasn't heard much of the storyline, raced through the adventure and is moments from entering the cragmaw hideout with 2 players at half HP left, no healer, and very few supplies.
I added a hobgoblin who they were easily able to surprise and thankfully they have him hostage (his backstory is that he serves the cragmaw goblins and is horribly mistreated and is bitter about it, but being a hobgoblin, he is not exactly friendly or tame.
I convinced them to take a long rest by reminding them that they left the wagon with all their supplies on the road and it is approaching dark as they were about to literally walk into the cave without being stealthy, doing any perception checks or checking the area.
My question is:
Does anyone have a side adventure idea that perhaps this hobgoblin could get them to go on first to perhaps get the rest of the xp they will need to level up to level 2.
How can I mitigate the player who is being pushy without him realizing I am doing it?
Any other input is of course always appreciated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The idea of me is intoxicating, the reality, sobering"
You will probably be best off speaking to the pushy player privately - let them know what you envision in terms of player interaction. Let them know what you are observing. Ask them what they want out of player interactions - they may not realize what they are doing and will change their behavior after you have a non-judgmental talk about expectations. I'm totally guessing here, but with younger players in the game they may be afraid the group will make "wrong" choices if they don't impose their will on everyone else. You may need to provide the player assurance that their fun won't be impacted by allowing other players to make less than optimal (in their eyes) choices.
As to the other part - have you looked on http://www.dmsguild.com/ - there are lots of free and low cost adventures built for all different levels that can easily be added as a side quest.
You will probably be best off speaking to the pushy player privately - let them know what you envision in terms of player interaction. Let them know what you are observing. Ask them what they want out of player interactions - they may not realize what they are doing and will change their behavior after you have a non-judgmental talk about expectations. I'm totally guessing here, but with younger players in the game they may be afraid the group will make "wrong" choices if they don't impose their will on everyone else. You may need to provide the player assurance that their fun won't be impacted by allowing other players to make less than optimal (in their eyes) choices.
As to the other part - have you looked on http://www.dmsguild.com/ - there are lots of free and low cost adventures built for all different levels that can easily be added as a side quest.
I will definitely check out the link, as I am trying to build on published adventures since I am not quite at the level or have the time commitment to build an entire world and campaign from scratch.
As to the pushy player I think you nailed it on the head. He is trying to keep people from making the "wrong" choices, although his ideas may not be the "right" choice either.
I will have a chat with him before the next session and remind him there really are no right or wrong choices and I will do my best to keep the action moving too. I think if you have watched Matt colvilles video on player types he falls into the tactical player role more or less.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The idea of me is intoxicating, the reality, sobering"
First, your players are just about to head into the cragmaw hideout. They are level 1. You think that this is probably a bad idea. You have some options here:
1) Cragmaw hideout has been abandoned. The goblins left a token resistance (guards to spring the pool trap, a single group of goblins waiting to ambush the party, etc) but you find the wolves cages empty, and the Alpha goblin has already vanished through a portal that leads to cragmaw castle. The portal has (?) already been disabled. Slidar is still there.
2) Level them up. YOU, the DM want them to be a higher level so that YOU the DM can have more fun blowing them up? Poof. They are now level 2. Better yet, they hit level 2 right before they meet the beta goblin. Waypoint leveling system at it's finest. This is also known as the "oh shit" level up because it's usually followed immediately by a boss battle. It's not a problem.
3) Let them die. Say nothing, let them proceed as planned, and when they awaken, chained to a wall next to slidar (since they are at 1hp, i'd give slidar his full hps back), completely naked and ready to potentially end up goblin food unless they figure out something tricky... well, they can't blame you! NEXT TIME, don't run into a dungeon at half-health! Let the story unfold, and even with a pre-made campaign try to be flexible enough to let the players do something that you think is stupid, and see what happens.
4) Side-quest. I'd probably advise against trying to use the Hobgoblin to put them on a side-quest, because your entire problem thus far has been them ignoring plot hooks and plowing forward like a steam engine (which, to be clear, is NOT a bad thing.). If you REALLY want to make sure they get some more exp, put that EXP in their path. There's a guardian tree. There's swarms of ravens that attack you. There's this, there's that. Instead, I'd use the hobgoblin captive to disseminate information about the hideout. He might mention the pool trap, so that the adventurers are ready to avoid it. 0.02
Second, is your "pushy player."
This is an out of game problem. Before I did anything to or with the pushy player, I'd talk to his younger side-kicks, and verify that, yes, they do in fact feel like he's railroading them, and they don't like it. Some players are okay being railroaded. As long as they understand that the party as a whole is being reckless, and that actions have consequences and ramifications, then again, it isn't necessarily a problem. Next, I would talk to the player. Here, it's important to discern whether the PLAYER is being pushy, or whether the BARBARIAN (the PC) is being pushy. Third, i'd let him know what your feelings are. There are a few other things that you, as the DM can do to facilitate your younger players. It's also important that you try not to draw too many conclusions about this sort of thing from the get go. It's a new group, they need to acclimatize to each other. You should also make it clear that as the DM, it's YOUR job to make sure that the players have the information they need in order to make good decisions, and that it's not his responsibility to make those decisions on behalf of everyone else at the table.
1) Use initiative outside of combat. Okay mark what are you doing. Okay, so you are going to go talk to the shopkeeper? Alright. And Sarah? What are you doing right now? Oh, you want to go explore the old mansion in town? When you went by it, you got a really bad feeling. Are you sure? Okay, you're sure. (Pushy player) You see Sarah wander off towards the old mansion, what do you do? In this way you ensure that all players receive approximately equal time, and give the younger players the opportunity to RP.
2) Throw up road blocks. It's never a good idea to target one single player, but at the same time, if the City just HAPPENS to be quarantined, and your players CAN'T run off half-cocked without at the very least, a letter of pardon from the local lord (signed off by a local healer or corrupt church official) well, then that's the situation and I'm afraid you are in for an afternoon of rolling checks and speaking with NPCs.
3) Wait. Give each player at the table the opportunity to speak their mind. Make eye contact. Go around the table. Wait until after the "bully" has declared "we are going to do XXX" and then ask each player whether they are comfortable with that plan. Don't allow him to advance the story without at least the majority of the party in voicing actual bonafide agreement with him.
4) List some of their options. One technique that a bully might use is advancing the only option at the table. Make it clear that your players have other options. Make it clear that a player, at any time has the right to ask "what are my options here?" and you will do your best to help them understand the situation and give them, at least a few options to consider.
3) Let them die. Say nothing, let them proceed as planned, and when they awaken, chained to a wall next to slidar (since they are at 1hp, i'd give slidar his full hps back), completely naked and ready to potentially end up goblin food unless they figure out something tricky... well, they can't blame you! NEXT TIME, don't run into a dungeon at half-health! Let the story unfold, and even with a pre-made campaign try to be flexible enough to let the players do something that you think is stupid, and see what happens.
This is what I would do if I were playing with party members who were at least familiar with RPG's or had exp. playing DnD (I do however LOVE the idea of chaining them up naked and nearly dead, lol ) and I may end up using this scenario anyway later on if they continue running headlong into dangerous places unprepared
2) Level them up. YOU, the DM want them to be a higher level so that YOU the DM can have more fun blowing them up? Poof. They are now level 2. Better yet, they hit level 2 right before they meet the beta goblin. Waypoint leveling system at it's finest. This is also known as the "oh shit" level up because it's usually followed immediately by a boss battle. It's not a problem.
Can you further explain how the RPing of waypoint leveling would work from the DM perspective? I am having a hard time imagining how that would play out? "As Kryon and his fellows come round the bend of the cavern they feel an intense heat(?) that fills them and they realize they have new abilities or their strength has improved? I don't mind doing something that would be a little more of a stretch to believe if it could be explained, or at least described in a way where I could hold onto my disbelief and go with it. It is one of the things I have disliked about video games, you reach the next level xp and poof now you are super buff, nearly a foot taller, you have all your hp again,and you know how to do 3xcombo special move and defeat the bad guy as if by magic. How do you Diplomacy, handle this, or other DM's reading, handle leveling up (in a dungeon, or during combat) ?
Second, is your "pushy player."
This is an out of game problem. Before I did anything to or with the pushy player, I'd talk to his younger side-kicks, and verify that, yes, they do in fact feel like he's railroading them, and they don't like it. Some players are okay being railroaded. As long as they understand that the party as a whole is being reckless, and that actions have consequences and ramifications, then again, it isn't necessarily a problem. Next, I would talk to the player. Here, it's important to discern whether the PLAYER is being pushy, or whether the BARBARIAN (the PC) is being pushy. Third, i'd let him know what your feelings are. There are a few other things that you, as the DM can do to facilitate your younger players. It's also important that you try not to draw too many conclusions about this sort of thing from the get go. It's a new group, they need to acclimatize to each other. You should also make it clear that as the DM, it's YOUR job to make sure that the players have the information they need in order to make good decisions, and that it's not his responsibility to make those decisions on behalf of everyone else at the table.
*Update, we are planning on a short session this evening to continue from Sunday's session.
I did speak to the entire group, instead of singling out one player to talk to. Here is what I learned:
1. The "pushy player" was not in character when giving advice and pushing the team along, although he was under the impression that the task of delivering the supplies to Phandalin was a time sensitive issue, and had mentally given this task a time limit.
2. The younger players did feel pushed and cornered into doing whatever the pushy player wanted, as I had thought. What I wasn't aware of, is that they weren't sure what their options were (*ding ding you were right**) either what they could do in character to the pushy player, or what they as characters could do inside the world.
I will, this evening, start out with mentioning that at any time when a player is unsure of what to do next they can ask what are my options until they are a bit more comfortable with the game (I don't want to end up being to much of a crutch and they can just rely on me to give them choices) . I will also do a better job of pointing out when a task has perimeters, whether time or otherwise, so the players know they are free to pursue other adventure hooks, take more time to just explore either a town, or woods, find an NPC to train or learn from etc.
and will follow your lead and just put a few things in their path to either boost their xp to level 2 or have a magical healing effect if the figure it out, if their rolls to regain hp are too low, or if I feel like it will be a TPK in the cave.
Giving ideas is something I often do when the party seems confused or stuck. I often attribute it to me not being clear enough in the first place, so feel free to help them out, and if the players are new/young they likely don't know what they can do and might need help "thinking outside the box" the first few times. I wouldn't necessarily tell them exactly what to do all of the time, but the first time doing this I would be pretty specific, and when giving a list of options would rarely put the "main progression" as the first option to them.
In this scenario with them being low on HP and entering what will be a difficult encounter/dungeon, I might be like "As you're approaching down the stream, you see a cave and a few lookouts that haven't noticed you yet. They are on watch, so this place is likely heavily guarded. Looking around you are feeling a bit winded and have an uneasy feeling about entering this cave." At this point, they have a decision to make, you naturally ask them what it is they want to do, but instead of letting them answer right away, roll off some options..."Do you want to push forward into this cave that has this ominous feeling, already wounded and a bit out of breath; do you want to go hide off in the brush and see if you can figure out how many goblins are in this cave or if you see anything unusual and maybe take a rest to gather yourselves (they might be forgetting that even just a short rest is an option, mention this and say it's only about an hour wait); do you want to go back to Neverwinter and report this goblin activity to a local lord,; do you want to push on to Phandalin and see if you can find Gundren or Nundro, or anyone who might be able to help; do you want to go chase butterflies along the stream?" (I like giving goofy options too, to kind of lighten the mood and make everyone remember it is a game and these decisions aren't necessarily that serious)
Edit: As I said the first time I would be specific, but this is just to kind of remind them of all the things they can do (it's D&D you can do anything you want, and some people have a hard time grasping that at first). Next time something similar comes up and they seem stuck, I might be like "You can take a rest, you can set up some sort of watch for activity, you can return to town, you can ignore the situation and move on.
Another idea is maybe alter the story a little bit -- perhaps a hunter that was in the area managed to see Sildar and Gundren get captured, perhaps this hunter knows Sildar and thus tracked these goblins back here to see what he can do to help. As they party is approaching the cave, he stealthily catches their attention and gives them some information (maybe an approximate how many goblins are there, the fact that Sildar is in fact in there, etc.). If you feel they aren't up to the dungeon, but they really want to get into it, maybe have him tag along and help out, but don't make him more powerful than the characters, as they might feel you're kind of taking over then.
We are working through the Lost Mine of Phandelver with a few minor changes
Due to those issues I have a group who hasn't heard much of the storyline, raced through the adventure and is moments from entering the cragmaw hideout with 2 players at half HP left, no healer, and very few supplies.
I added a hobgoblin who they were easily able to surprise and thankfully they have him hostage (his backstory is that he serves the cragmaw goblins and is horribly mistreated and is bitter about it, but being a hobgoblin, he is not exactly friendly or tame.
I convinced them to take a long rest by reminding them that they left the wagon with all their supplies on the road and it is approaching dark as they were about to literally walk into the cave without being stealthy, doing any perception checks or checking the area.
My question is:
Does anyone have a side adventure idea that perhaps this hobgoblin could get them to go on first to perhaps get the rest of the xp they will need to level up to level 2.
How can I mitigate the player who is being pushy without him realizing I am doing it?
Any other input is of course always appreciated.
"The idea of me is intoxicating, the reality, sobering"
You will probably be best off speaking to the pushy player privately - let them know what you envision in terms of player interaction. Let them know what you are observing. Ask them what they want out of player interactions - they may not realize what they are doing and will change their behavior after you have a non-judgmental talk about expectations. I'm totally guessing here, but with younger players in the game they may be afraid the group will make "wrong" choices if they don't impose their will on everyone else. You may need to provide the player assurance that their fun won't be impacted by allowing other players to make less than optimal (in their eyes) choices.
As to the other part - have you looked on http://www.dmsguild.com/ - there are lots of free and low cost adventures built for all different levels that can easily be added as a side quest.
"The idea of me is intoxicating, the reality, sobering"
Okay, so I see several problems here:
First, your players are just about to head into the cragmaw hideout. They are level 1. You think that this is probably a bad idea. You have some options here:
1) Cragmaw hideout has been abandoned. The goblins left a token resistance (guards to spring the pool trap, a single group of goblins waiting to ambush the party, etc) but you find the wolves cages empty, and the Alpha goblin has already vanished through a portal that leads to cragmaw castle. The portal has (?) already been disabled. Slidar is still there.
2) Level them up. YOU, the DM want them to be a higher level so that YOU the DM can have more fun blowing them up? Poof. They are now level 2. Better yet, they hit level 2 right before they meet the beta goblin. Waypoint leveling system at it's finest. This is also known as the "oh shit" level up because it's usually followed immediately by a boss battle. It's not a problem.
3) Let them die. Say nothing, let them proceed as planned, and when they awaken, chained to a wall next to slidar (since they are at 1hp, i'd give slidar his full hps back), completely naked and ready to potentially end up goblin food unless they figure out something tricky... well, they can't blame you! NEXT TIME, don't run into a dungeon at half-health! Let the story unfold, and even with a pre-made campaign try to be flexible enough to let the players do something that you think is stupid, and see what happens.
4) Side-quest. I'd probably advise against trying to use the Hobgoblin to put them on a side-quest, because your entire problem thus far has been them ignoring plot hooks and plowing forward like a steam engine (which, to be clear, is NOT a bad thing.). If you REALLY want to make sure they get some more exp, put that EXP in their path. There's a guardian tree. There's swarms of ravens that attack you. There's this, there's that. Instead, I'd use the hobgoblin captive to disseminate information about the hideout. He might mention the pool trap, so that the adventurers are ready to avoid it. 0.02
Second, is your "pushy player."
This is an out of game problem. Before I did anything to or with the pushy player, I'd talk to his younger side-kicks, and verify that, yes, they do in fact feel like he's railroading them, and they don't like it. Some players are okay being railroaded. As long as they understand that the party as a whole is being reckless, and that actions have consequences and ramifications, then again, it isn't necessarily a problem. Next, I would talk to the player. Here, it's important to discern whether the PLAYER is being pushy, or whether the BARBARIAN (the PC) is being pushy. Third, i'd let him know what your feelings are. There are a few other things that you, as the DM can do to facilitate your younger players. It's also important that you try not to draw too many conclusions about this sort of thing from the get go. It's a new group, they need to acclimatize to each other. You should also make it clear that as the DM, it's YOUR job to make sure that the players have the information they need in order to make good decisions, and that it's not his responsibility to make those decisions on behalf of everyone else at the table.
1) Use initiative outside of combat. Okay mark what are you doing. Okay, so you are going to go talk to the shopkeeper? Alright. And Sarah? What are you doing right now? Oh, you want to go explore the old mansion in town? When you went by it, you got a really bad feeling. Are you sure? Okay, you're sure. (Pushy player) You see Sarah wander off towards the old mansion, what do you do? In this way you ensure that all players receive approximately equal time, and give the younger players the opportunity to RP.
2) Throw up road blocks. It's never a good idea to target one single player, but at the same time, if the City just HAPPENS to be quarantined, and your players CAN'T run off half-cocked without at the very least, a letter of pardon from the local lord (signed off by a local healer or corrupt church official) well, then that's the situation and I'm afraid you are in for an afternoon of rolling checks and speaking with NPCs.
3) Wait. Give each player at the table the opportunity to speak their mind. Make eye contact. Go around the table. Wait until after the "bully" has declared "we are going to do XXX" and then ask each player whether they are comfortable with that plan. Don't allow him to advance the story without at least the majority of the party in voicing actual bonafide agreement with him.
4) List some of their options. One technique that a bully might use is advancing the only option at the table. Make it clear that your players have other options. Make it clear that a player, at any time has the right to ask "what are my options here?" and you will do your best to help them understand the situation and give them, at least a few options to consider.
This is what I would do if I were playing with party members who were at least familiar with RPG's or had exp. playing DnD (I do however LOVE the idea of chaining them up naked and nearly dead, lol ) and I may end up using this scenario anyway later on if they continue running headlong into dangerous places unprepared
Can you further explain how the RPing of waypoint leveling would work from the DM perspective? I am having a hard time imagining how that would play out? "As Kryon and his fellows come round the bend of the cavern they feel an intense heat(?) that fills them and they realize they have new abilities or their strength has improved? I don't mind doing something that would be a little more of a stretch to believe if it could be explained, or at least described in a way where I could hold onto my disbelief and go with it. It is one of the things I have disliked about video games, you reach the next level xp and poof now you are super buff, nearly a foot taller, you have all your hp again,and you know how to do 3xcombo special move and defeat the bad guy as if by magic. How do you Diplomacy, handle this, or other DM's reading, handle leveling up (in a dungeon, or during combat) ?
*Update, we are planning on a short session this evening to continue from Sunday's session.
I did speak to the entire group, instead of singling out one player to talk to. Here is what I learned:
1. The "pushy player" was not in character when giving advice and pushing the team along, although he was under the impression that the task of delivering the supplies to Phandalin was a time sensitive issue, and had mentally given this task a time limit.
2. The younger players did feel pushed and cornered into doing whatever the pushy player wanted, as I had thought. What I wasn't aware of, is that they weren't sure what their options were (*ding ding you were right**) either what they could do in character to the pushy player, or what they as characters could do inside the world.
I will, this evening, start out with mentioning that at any time when a player is unsure of what to do next they can ask what are my options until they are a bit more comfortable with the game (I don't want to end up being to much of a crutch and they can just rely on me to give them choices) . I will also do a better job of pointing out when a task has perimeters, whether time or otherwise, so the players know they are free to pursue other adventure hooks, take more time to just explore either a town, or woods, find an NPC to train or learn from etc.
and will follow your lead and just put a few things in their path to either boost their xp to level 2 or have a magical healing effect if the figure it out, if their rolls to regain hp are too low, or if I feel like it will be a TPK in the cave.
Thanks
"The idea of me is intoxicating, the reality, sobering"
Giving ideas is something I often do when the party seems confused or stuck. I often attribute it to me not being clear enough in the first place, so feel free to help them out, and if the players are new/young they likely don't know what they can do and might need help "thinking outside the box" the first few times. I wouldn't necessarily tell them exactly what to do all of the time, but the first time doing this I would be pretty specific, and when giving a list of options would rarely put the "main progression" as the first option to them.
In this scenario with them being low on HP and entering what will be a difficult encounter/dungeon, I might be like "As you're approaching down the stream, you see a cave and a few lookouts that haven't noticed you yet. They are on watch, so this place is likely heavily guarded. Looking around you are feeling a bit winded and have an uneasy feeling about entering this cave." At this point, they have a decision to make, you naturally ask them what it is they want to do, but instead of letting them answer right away, roll off some options..."Do you want to push forward into this cave that has this ominous feeling, already wounded and a bit out of breath; do you want to go hide off in the brush and see if you can figure out how many goblins are in this cave or if you see anything unusual and maybe take a rest to gather yourselves (they might be forgetting that even just a short rest is an option, mention this and say it's only about an hour wait); do you want to go back to Neverwinter and report this goblin activity to a local lord,; do you want to push on to Phandalin and see if you can find Gundren or Nundro, or anyone who might be able to help; do you want to go chase butterflies along the stream?" (I like giving goofy options too, to kind of lighten the mood and make everyone remember it is a game and these decisions aren't necessarily that serious)
Edit: As I said the first time I would be specific, but this is just to kind of remind them of all the things they can do (it's D&D you can do anything you want, and some people have a hard time grasping that at first). Next time something similar comes up and they seem stuck, I might be like "You can take a rest, you can set up some sort of watch for activity, you can return to town, you can ignore the situation and move on.
Another idea is maybe alter the story a little bit -- perhaps a hunter that was in the area managed to see Sildar and Gundren get captured, perhaps this hunter knows Sildar and thus tracked these goblins back here to see what he can do to help. As they party is approaching the cave, he stealthily catches their attention and gives them some information (maybe an approximate how many goblins are there, the fact that Sildar is in fact in there, etc.). If you feel they aren't up to the dungeon, but they really want to get into it, maybe have him tag along and help out, but don't make him more powerful than the characters, as they might feel you're kind of taking over then.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!