Yep. We agree on most of that. All but the piece where you say this is part of the encounter balance system. This is after the encounter balances have been evaluated. It's a comparison used to determine the party's ability to endure more combat and possibly succumb or succeed. This comparison is the basis of my discussion. Not sure where you were led to believe that there was an understatement of difficulty. I've for the most part agreed with your assessments. And yet there is a contradiction coming from your responses.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Sorry, you don't "fill up" your daily budget, this is a guide to assess how far your party might progress through an adventure in a day. There is no requirement to hit a quota and stop. It's a rough estimate of what they can handle between long rests, not a defined constraint.
So can they make it past this, possibly. Tough fight either way, but there is a possibility. Will it hinder the rest of the things they accomplish in the day? They have to be allowed to find out.
There's no adjusted xp modifier for solo vs party size 2.
Where did anyone bring this up? A single PC is a party size less than 3. That's already accounted for in the guidance. Same as a party of 2. Are you trying to enforce your homebrew as DMG guidance here?
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
They don't have to fight him at all. His area is very much a bonus area which awards additional xp and treasure if they explore it but they only actually have to go to room 11 and fight Mondath for the level up with milestone. I say leave it as is, the module has made it clear they shouldn't be fighting him and you can remind them if necessary. He's not hiding so if the players are being stealthy they will see him first you can even having him loudly talking so they cant possibly miss him. Finally even if they engage him they can always flee and I'd say that Langderosa doesn't leave the cave or chase very far because he's charged with protecting the eggs.
They don't have to fight him at all. His area is very much a bonus area which awards additional xp and treasure if they explore it but they only actually have to go to room 11 and fight Mondath for the level up with milestone. I say leave it as is, the module has made it clear they shouldn't be fighting him and you can remind them if necessary. He's not hiding so if the players are being stealthy they will see him first you can even having him loudly talking so they cant possibly miss him. Finally even if they engage him they can always flee and I'd say that Langderosa doesn't leave the cave or chase very far because he's charged with protecting the eggs.
Now that you mention it, yes, Mondath's room is the only required one. The game doesn't really make that clear, though, since Mondath's room is towards the beginning of the dungeon and Cyanwrath guards the end.
But Mondath has the option to just run away before the PCs even show up, though. Up until this point, there haven't been any real boss fights. And now I'm hearing that even this rematch with Cyanwrath may be intended to be avoided. Is this common in paid adventures? When do the PC usually start fighting intended bosses?
I might suggest that the purpose of the overstocking of the adventure is to allow the PC to use the seperate factions against each other to gain support in the goal of foiling the BBE plot.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Don't use milestone for this adventure, the characters will level up faster and they'll need those levels
It says 1 to 8 on the cover but its more like 1 to 10
Drop a berserker if lvl 3 and make cyanwrath drop a magic item if he doesn't already
I ran this with xp and I was lvl5 by the end of dungeon
Also when get to the caravan chapter cut the travel time in half, else you'll be on the road forever
Is XP really a good idea? The sequel Rise of Tiamat only seems to support milestone, so it just seems weird to do XP for Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Can Rise of Tiamat be done with XP?
Most adventure modules produced will have the stipulation built in to use either xp, or *suggested* milestone leveling. HotDQ and RoT both have it. The DM can decide when during the adventure the party levels up. You can set the milestone to be at some point either before or after a major event or encounter, or you can slow down progression to make the adventure exponentially more difficult. Any adventure can be handled this way. You're the DM, you get to decide what is best for your game.
Milestone is the "variant" form of character progression. Giving XP for encounters is the base assumption. Level progression without XP is choosing a spot in the adventure that you want/need the party at a particular level to make the encounters they are to face on-par with their abilities.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Most adventure modules produced will have the stipulation built in to use either xp, or *suggested* milestone leveling. HotDQ and RoT both have it. The DM can decide when during the adventure the party levels up. You can set the milestone to be at some point either before or after a major event or encounter, or you can slow down progression to make the adventure exponentially more difficult. Any adventure can be handled this way. You're the DM, you get to decide what is best for your game.
Milestone is the "variant" form of character progression. Giving XP for encounters is the base assumption. Level progression without XP is choosing a spot in the adventure that you want/need the party at a particular level to make the encounters they are to face on-par with their abilities.
But RoT doesn't have the stipulation. It just says "this adventure uses milestone" and tells you when to level up the characters. HotDQ, on the other hand, has explicit XP awards for non-combat challenges.
Apologies. I am mistaken. Appreciate the correction.
Regardless, the option is still available to the DM to employ their preferred method. Also, still a DM prerogative to set party level where they feel it appropriate, or to alter encounter balance to suit the desired effect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'm still reading Horde of the Dragon Queen, but there's an encounter in Chapter 8: Castle in the Clouds that I'm wondering about, too. The spellcaster Rath Modar has an escape plan if he's outmatched, but I don't think he understands how concentration works. He's supposed to make himself invisible (presumably by casting greater invisibility) followed by fly and flee the room, but both those spells require concentration. Why does he bother casting greater invisibility if he's just going to end it by casting- wait, what?! He doesn't even have fly prepared! And he has a scroll of dimension door that he could use instead?! What's going on here?!
I'm still reading Horde of the Dragon Queen, but there's an encounter in Chapter 8: Castle in the Clouds that I'm wondering about, too. The spellcaster Rath Modar has an escape plan if he's outmatched, but I don't think he understands how concentration works. He's supposed to make himself invisible (presumably by casting greater invisibility) followed by fly and flee the room, but both those spells require concentration. Why does he bother casting greater invisibility if he's just going to end it by casting- wait, what?! He doesn't even have fly prepared! And he has a scroll of dimension door that he could use instead?! What's going on here?!
It doesn't say he casts a spell to turn invisible but simply that he gains the invisible condition. It doesn't require concentration or even an action because it's just a plot power, it's allot like a mythic trait, its some non player available magic that he has set up which makes him invisible at any time. It can even happen outside of his turn like a legendary action.
I'm still reading Horde of the Dragon Queen, but there's an encounter in Chapter 8: Castle in the Clouds that I'm wondering about, too. The spellcaster Rath Modar has an escape plan if he's outmatched, but I don't think he understands how concentration works. He's supposed to make himself invisible (presumably by casting greater invisibility) followed by fly and flee the room, but both those spells require concentration. Why does he bother casting greater invisibility if he's just going to end it by casting- wait, what?! He doesn't even have fly prepared! And he has a scroll of dimension door that he could use instead?! What's going on here?!
It doesn't say he casts a spell to turn invisible but simply that he gains the invisible condition. It doesn't require concentration or even an action because it's just a plot power, it's allot like a mythic trait, its some non player available magic that he has set up which makes him invisible at any time. It can even happen outside of his turn like a legendary action.
But there's literally no point! All he has to do is read his dimension door spell scroll (casting spells with magic items requires no components) and he's out of there. Yet the book is going out of its way to insist that his escape plan involves a series of superpowers that are absent from his stat block? Chapter 8 sincerely thinks that Rath Modar has fly prepared, yet the only enemy in HotDQ that actually bothers to swap out a spell on its list is the acolyte in Chapter 1.
I seem to remember that Skyreach Castle has a Zone/Shield preventing scrying and teleportation associated with the Giant magic powering the flying castle... also in subsequent reading I'm getting the impression that a Dragon Lair can also have such properties
Edit- I just skimmed through HotDQ again can't seem to find it possibly I read it in some guide/discussion of HotDQ that would explain exactly this anomaly you pointed out.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
It doesn't say he casts a spell to turn invisible but simply that he gains the invisible condition. It doesn't require concentration or even an action because it's just a plot power, it's allot like a mythic trait, its some non player available magic that he has set up which makes him invisible at any time. It can even happen outside of his turn like a legendary action.
If that was the intent, it would actually be reflected on his character sheet, similar to his Illusory Self power. I would just assume it's an error.
It doesn't say he casts a spell to turn invisible but simply that he gains the invisible condition. It doesn't require concentration or even an action because it's just a plot power, it's allot like a mythic trait, its some non player available magic that he has set up which makes him invisible at any time. It can even happen outside of his turn like a legendary action.
If that was the intent, it would actually be reflected on his character sheet, similar to his Illusory Self power. I would just assume it's an error.
Yeah, this is on par with the nonexistant 15 foot tounges of giant frogs.
I seem to remember that Skyreach Castle has a Zone/Shield preventing scrying and teleportation associated with the Giant magic powering the flying castle... also in subsequent reading I'm getting the impression that a Dragon Lair can also have such properties
Edit- I just skimmed through HotDQ again can't seem to find it possibly I read it in some guide/discussion of HotDQ that would explain exactly this anomaly you pointed out.
I just did a Ctrl+F for the word "teleport" in Chapter 8. The castle relies on teleportation for a few rooms. Particularly Rezmir's chest and Escarlotta's tomb.
I seem to remember that Skyreach Castle has a Zone/Shield preventing scrying and teleportation associated with the Giant magic powering the flying castle... also in subsequent reading I'm getting the impression that a Dragon Lair can also have such properties
Edit- I just skimmed through HotDQ again can't seem to find it possibly I read it in some guide/discussion of HotDQ that would explain exactly this anomaly you pointed out.
I just did a Ctrl+F for the word "teleport" in Chapter 8. The castle relies on teleportation for a few rooms. Particularly Rezmir's chest and Escarlotta's tomb.
Yeah that would fit well with me having read it in some guide/discussion on HotDQ as Escarlotta and The Dragon Masks that may not fall into player hands lest they destroy the entire campaign is something I've read a few times in Guides/discussions to throw straight out the window...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
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Yep. We agree on most of that. All but the piece where you say this is part of the encounter balance system. This is after the encounter balances have been evaluated. It's a comparison used to determine the party's ability to endure more combat and possibly succumb or succeed. This comparison is the basis of my discussion. Not sure where you were led to believe that there was an understatement of difficulty. I've for the most part agreed with your assessments. And yet there is a contradiction coming from your responses.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
It is. You're supposed to sum the adjusted xp (from the encounter design rules) to fill up your daily budget.
There's no adjusted xp modifier for solo vs party size 2.
Sorry, you don't "fill up" your daily budget, this is a guide to assess how far your party might progress through an adventure in a day. There is no requirement to hit a quota and stop. It's a rough estimate of what they can handle between long rests, not a defined constraint.
So can they make it past this, possibly. Tough fight either way, but there is a possibility. Will it hinder the rest of the things they accomplish in the day? They have to be allowed to find out.
Where did anyone bring this up? A single PC is a party size less than 3. That's already accounted for in the guidance. Same as a party of 2. Are you trying to enforce your homebrew as DMG guidance here?
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
They don't have to fight him at all. His area is very much a bonus area which awards additional xp and treasure if they explore it but they only actually have to go to room 11 and fight Mondath for the level up with milestone. I say leave it as is, the module has made it clear they shouldn't be fighting him and you can remind them if necessary. He's not hiding so if the players are being stealthy they will see him first you can even having him loudly talking so they cant possibly miss him. Finally even if they engage him they can always flee and I'd say that Langderosa doesn't leave the cave or chase very far because he's charged with protecting the eggs.
Now that you mention it, yes, Mondath's room is the only required one. The game doesn't really make that clear, though, since Mondath's room is towards the beginning of the dungeon and Cyanwrath guards the end.
But Mondath has the option to just run away before the PCs even show up, though. Up until this point, there haven't been any real boss fights. And now I'm hearing that even this rematch with Cyanwrath may be intended to be avoided. Is this common in paid adventures? When do the PC usually start fighting intended bosses?
Take a peek at Ch.6 3rd Floor and Ch. 8.
I might suggest that the purpose of the overstocking of the adventure is to allow the PC to use the seperate factions against each other to gain support in the goal of foiling the BBE plot.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
HotDQ is bad for this
Don't use milestone for this adventure, the characters will level up faster and they'll need those levels
It says 1 to 8 on the cover but its more like 1 to 10
Drop a berserker if lvl 3 and make cyanwrath drop a magic item if he doesn't already
I ran this with xp and I was lvl5 by the end of dungeon
Also when get to the caravan chapter cut the travel time in half, else you'll be on the road forever
Is XP really a good idea? The sequel Rise of Tiamat only seems to support milestone, so it just seems weird to do XP for Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Can Rise of Tiamat be done with XP?
Most adventure modules produced will have the stipulation built in to use either xp, or *suggested* milestone leveling. HotDQ and RoT both have it. The DM can decide when during the adventure the party levels up. You can set the milestone to be at some point either before or after a major event or encounter, or you can slow down progression to make the adventure exponentially more difficult. Any adventure can be handled this way. You're the DM, you get to decide what is best for your game.
Milestone is the "variant" form of character progression. Giving XP for encounters is the base assumption. Level progression without XP is choosing a spot in the adventure that you want/need the party at a particular level to make the encounters they are to face on-par with their abilities.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
But RoT doesn't have the stipulation. It just says "this adventure uses milestone" and tells you when to level up the characters. HotDQ, on the other hand, has explicit XP awards for non-combat challenges.
Apologies. I am mistaken. Appreciate the correction.
Regardless, the option is still available to the DM to employ their preferred method. Also, still a DM prerogative to set party level where they feel it appropriate, or to alter encounter balance to suit the desired effect.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'm still reading Horde of the Dragon Queen, but there's an encounter in Chapter 8: Castle in the Clouds that I'm wondering about, too. The spellcaster Rath Modar has an escape plan if he's outmatched, but I don't think he understands how concentration works. He's supposed to make himself invisible (presumably by casting greater invisibility) followed by fly and flee the room, but both those spells require concentration. Why does he bother casting greater invisibility if he's just going to end it by casting- wait, what?! He doesn't even have fly prepared! And he has a scroll of dimension door that he could use instead?! What's going on here?!
It doesn't say he casts a spell to turn invisible but simply that he gains the invisible condition. It doesn't require concentration or even an action because it's just a plot power, it's allot like a mythic trait, its some non player available magic that he has set up which makes him invisible at any time. It can even happen outside of his turn like a legendary action.
But there's literally no point! All he has to do is read his dimension door spell scroll (casting spells with magic items requires no components) and he's out of there. Yet the book is going out of its way to insist that his escape plan involves a series of superpowers that are absent from his stat block? Chapter 8 sincerely thinks that Rath Modar has fly prepared, yet the only enemy in HotDQ that actually bothers to swap out a spell on its list is the acolyte in Chapter 1.
@SuperParkourio "he has a scroll of dimension door that he could use instead?! What's going on here?!"
I seem to remember that Skyreach Castle has a Zone/Shield preventing scrying and teleportation associated with the Giant magic powering the flying castle... also in subsequent reading I'm getting the impression that a Dragon Lair can also have such properties
Edit- I just skimmed through HotDQ again can't seem to find it possibly I read it in some guide/discussion of HotDQ that would explain exactly this anomaly you pointed out.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
If that was the intent, it would actually be reflected on his character sheet, similar to his Illusory Self power. I would just assume it's an error.
Yeah, this is on par with the nonexistant 15 foot tounges of giant frogs.
I just did a Ctrl+F for the word "teleport" in Chapter 8. The castle relies on teleportation for a few rooms. Particularly Rezmir's chest and Escarlotta's tomb.
Yeah that would fit well with me having read it in some guide/discussion on HotDQ as Escarlotta and The Dragon Masks that may not fall into player hands lest they destroy the entire campaign is something I've read a few times in Guides/discussions to throw straight out the window...
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again