Greetings fellow DMs. Just a little combo rant, idea/thought craft, and thoughts thread.
I'm 8 sessions into the adventure The Wild Beyond the Witchlight with some seasoned players. Running it for a group of 5 who all have ran games before, and know how to optimize their characters. I explained the primary pillars of play that the adventure was geared towards; exploration and social interaction, with combat taking a backseat since leveling up kind of needed them to follow some specific goals. I'm kind of new to that style of leveling up, ran it well with Storm's King Thunder and it felt like a nice fit here. The carnival went great. 2 sessions, all peaceful solutions, made their way into Prismeer without incident.
Upon meeting the "vagabond harengon" things turned dark quickly. I kind of chalked it up to players wanting to use their abilities. New monk killed a couple, warlock joined them, wizard kinda panic'd. The others joined in once things kinda turned into combat. This was the "stealing dreams" scenario. So they justified it, knowing the 3 established rules before entering the mirror, as them defeating thieves. General exploration of Hither was ok. But they antagonized the bullywugs. Got split and got caught so went through the "coliseum" portion and then they freed their friend and took off into the marsh again. Running across some other bullywugs, the hobgoblins, and more harengon in the highways "tried to kill Longscarf" before he was talking.
Now.. AITA if I have Hither turn a bit darker due to their actions? Maybe introduce a few Madcaps and Giant Crocodiles... Maybe a Shambling Mound or two, and keep Hither flooded to sorta have an ingame reflection of their actions? Out of game I've chatted with them about it. I think I have a case where 3 of the players are trying to "beat" the module in a unique way and I'm ok with that. And that's generated a bit of "upman-ship" in the playground so to day. But if it's going to go combat focus I don't think they'll have the tools to really win. Particularly with the jabberwock and other beings being kind of strong for the level range.
I also plan for things to "correct" if they start following Zybilna's tenants a bit better. They treated Jingle Jangle well and got some of the meaty story beats. But I almost feel like Ser Talivar would just fly away as soon as he's free from these mercenaries. ;)
It might fit for the area to reflect the recent actions of the party. It could be a subtle method of showing consequence of action. If they have a plan to complete the adventure in a "unique" way, that might imply that they know how to complete it in the "normal" way and want to run differently. There is nothing wrong with a particular playstyle in any adventure. I wouldn't expect anyone to think it odd that a party of seasoned adventurers tried to talk their way out of an encounter that they thought they couldn't fight their way out of successfully.
I might suggest making the rewards more inticing if they complete the encounters a bit more diplomatically. You could also try to play on the PCs sense of empathy to see if they auto-course-correct. Otherwise, if they want to use combat as conflict resolution, and that's their version of fun, run with it.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I don't believe you would be TA at all. The Feywild reflects the emotions and actions of whomever holds the most power in that area. Now, in Downfall you could have it reflect Slack-jaw Lorna's but outside of it you would most certainly be within line to make the place seem darker and bleak if they're killing things.
Keep in mind that Fey value life greatly (as an asset) and are more apt to flee or talk their way out of combat instead of fighting to the death. Why kill something when you can make it your servant for (its) life?
You can most certainly add more darker encounters into the area, but I would also recommend having the NPCs reflect the players actions and become more crafty and cunning when dealing with "these dangerous adventurers!"
Greetings fellow DMs. Just a little combo rant, idea/thought craft, and thoughts thread.
I'm 8 sessions into the adventure The Wild Beyond the Witchlight with some seasoned players. Running it for a group of 5 who all have ran games before, and know how to optimize their characters. I explained the primary pillars of play that the adventure was geared towards; exploration and social interaction, with combat taking a backseat since leveling up kind of needed them to follow some specific goals. I'm kind of new to that style of leveling up, ran it well with Storm's King Thunder and it felt like a nice fit here. The carnival went great. 2 sessions, all peaceful solutions, made their way into Prismeer without incident.
Upon meeting the "vagabond harengon" things turned dark quickly. I kind of chalked it up to players wanting to use their abilities. New monk killed a couple, warlock joined them, wizard kinda panic'd. The others joined in once things kinda turned into combat. This was the "stealing dreams" scenario. So they justified it, knowing the 3 established rules before entering the mirror, as them defeating thieves. General exploration of Hither was ok. But they antagonized the bullywugs. Got split and got caught so went through the "coliseum" portion and then they freed their friend and took off into the marsh again. Running across some other bullywugs, the hobgoblins, and more harengon in the highways "tried to kill Longscarf" before he was talking.
Now.. AITA if I have Hither turn a bit darker due to their actions? Maybe introduce a few Madcaps and Giant Crocodiles... Maybe a Shambling Mound or two, and keep Hither flooded to sorta have an ingame reflection of their actions? Out of game I've chatted with them about it. I think I have a case where 3 of the players are trying to "beat" the module in a unique way and I'm ok with that. And that's generated a bit of "upman-ship" in the playground so to day. But if it's going to go combat focus I don't think they'll have the tools to really win. Particularly with the jabberwock and other beings being kind of strong for the level range.
I also plan for things to "correct" if they start following Zybilna's tenants a bit better. They treated Jingle Jangle well and got some of the meaty story beats. But I almost feel like Ser Talivar would just fly away as soon as he's free from these mercenaries. ;)
Anyone else have that problem?
You are playing a module that decided to go overboard on the social pillar and minimize combat. Most players like combat and if they have to spend a session doing social roles, they'll put up with it for one session, maybe two sessions but not more than that in a row. I don't blame the players one bit, they want to play D&D not do a poor conversion of a choose your own adventure game. Adjust the encounters accordingly, figure out what encounters need to be social and set up the environment to encourage that but let the rest go where it is. Remember the DM does not create the story, the players do. You are just running the world, the players set the story. Some modules are written as a railroad - see "Dragons of Despair" as an example of it, and a lot of the new staff at WotC are story tellers not gamers. When you use a story tellers module, be ready to do a lot of work to make it playable. Not everyone wants to play "Critical Role the Game" /spaceballs.
There are fairly decent third party content made for 5E if you want modules that are balanced amongst the 3 pillars try troll lord games, goodman games or kobold press as some examples you could use. Or if you do a quick good search for Dungeon Magazine top modules you'll see a list of old modules that are damn good.
Let them play the game they want to play. I'd consider "not much combat" to mean one combat every two sessions. I think your players are likely bored/frustrated that they are playing D&D but they aren't really playing D&D, since D&D rules are principally about combat.
I'd run a Session 0.5 (maybe just 30 mins at the start of a session) to ascertain what they are comfortable with in the game. My players like there to be at least one combat per 4-5 hour session. If you want to run the whole module as "Combat = deviating" but they want to fight, then give them encounters to fight.
The thing is; the game was advertised as favoring the social and exploration pillars of play. D&D and this adventure did it well. I think it was a weird flex that's seen way too often in the space. As some of the replies have surmised. The hares were replaced with Madcaps, the simple frogs with attack on site lizardfolk, and Bavlorna's tasks were ramped up to kind of reflect what they thought they were good at. They were harried so long rests were kept minimal (some old school D&D style interruptions) and after threatening Ol' Lorna and she not flinching an eye (I think they could take her, but you gotta keep up that poker face right?).. They learned some key elements and went to Tither and were a little better motivated to talk and explore. D&D's a terrible combat simulator. So utilizing all 3 pillars of play is important. I'm finding it ok to focus on 2 of the 3. While letting them know if they look for combat, combat will find them.
It's tactical combat and its a game, its why a lot of players like combat for the game play. Role playing is fine, however most players if they are stuck rolling persuasion, intimidation and deception for session after session, most players are out. It's always fun when you see someone whose into CR want to recreate that and you see them back in the LFG boards a few months later. Doing a good dungeon delve, seeing what's there and freeing prisoners or convincing one faction to work with you is what made D&D a popular game. The story telling faction currently running WotC is *cute*, I'm sure there is a group of people who want the D&D equivalent of choose your own adventure game, but I'll hard pass on that take of D&D.
I just use 5E rules, the modules since Winninger has been running D&D has been seriously lacking, the modules weren't the greatest under Mearls but they were mostly playable without needing huge rewrites. I can't think of any module from 5E I would carry into other games, but I have a select group of 1/2/3/3.5E modules that I introduce new groups to all the time because they are good.
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Greetings fellow DMs. Just a little combo rant, idea/thought craft, and thoughts thread.
I'm 8 sessions into the adventure The Wild Beyond the Witchlight with some seasoned players. Running it for a group of 5 who all have ran games before, and know how to optimize their characters. I explained the primary pillars of play that the adventure was geared towards; exploration and social interaction, with combat taking a backseat since leveling up kind of needed them to follow some specific goals. I'm kind of new to that style of leveling up, ran it well with Storm's King Thunder and it felt like a nice fit here.
The carnival went great. 2 sessions, all peaceful solutions, made their way into Prismeer without incident.
Upon meeting the "vagabond harengon" things turned dark quickly. I kind of chalked it up to players wanting to use their abilities. New monk killed a couple, warlock joined them, wizard kinda panic'd. The others joined in once things kinda turned into combat. This was the "stealing dreams" scenario. So they justified it, knowing the 3 established rules before entering the mirror, as them defeating thieves.
General exploration of Hither was ok. But they antagonized the bullywugs. Got split and got caught so went through the "coliseum" portion and then they freed their friend and took off into the marsh again. Running across some other bullywugs, the hobgoblins, and more harengon in the highways "tried to kill Longscarf" before he was talking.
Now.. AITA if I have Hither turn a bit darker due to their actions? Maybe introduce a few Madcaps and Giant Crocodiles... Maybe a Shambling Mound or two, and keep Hither flooded to sorta have an ingame reflection of their actions? Out of game I've chatted with them about it. I think I have a case where 3 of the players are trying to "beat" the module in a unique way and I'm ok with that. And that's generated a bit of "upman-ship" in the playground so to day. But if it's going to go combat focus I don't think they'll have the tools to really win. Particularly with the jabberwock and other beings being kind of strong for the level range.
I also plan for things to "correct" if they start following Zybilna's tenants a bit better. They treated Jingle Jangle well and got some of the meaty story beats. But I almost feel like Ser Talivar would just fly away as soon as he's free from these mercenaries. ;)
Anyone else have that problem?
There is nothing wrong with combat in tWBtW, you just don't *need* to be successful, unlike almost every other published module.
If your group enjoys combat then go for it. There is no need to punish or correct it.
Yeah, sounds like somebody got a little "itchy".
It might fit for the area to reflect the recent actions of the party. It could be a subtle method of showing consequence of action. If they have a plan to complete the adventure in a "unique" way, that might imply that they know how to complete it in the "normal" way and want to run differently. There is nothing wrong with a particular playstyle in any adventure. I wouldn't expect anyone to think it odd that a party of seasoned adventurers tried to talk their way out of an encounter that they thought they couldn't fight their way out of successfully.
I might suggest making the rewards more inticing if they complete the encounters a bit more diplomatically. You could also try to play on the PCs sense of empathy to see if they auto-course-correct. Otherwise, if they want to use combat as conflict resolution, and that's their version of fun, run with it.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I don't believe you would be TA at all. The Feywild reflects the emotions and actions of whomever holds the most power in that area. Now, in Downfall you could have it reflect Slack-jaw Lorna's but outside of it you would most certainly be within line to make the place seem darker and bleak if they're killing things.
Keep in mind that Fey value life greatly (as an asset) and are more apt to flee or talk their way out of combat instead of fighting to the death. Why kill something when you can make it your servant for (its) life?
You can most certainly add more darker encounters into the area, but I would also recommend having the NPCs reflect the players actions and become more crafty and cunning when dealing with "these dangerous adventurers!"
You are playing a module that decided to go overboard on the social pillar and minimize combat. Most players like combat and if they have to spend a session doing social roles, they'll put up with it for one session, maybe two sessions but not more than that in a row. I don't blame the players one bit, they want to play D&D not do a poor conversion of a choose your own adventure game. Adjust the encounters accordingly, figure out what encounters need to be social and set up the environment to encourage that but let the rest go where it is. Remember the DM does not create the story, the players do. You are just running the world, the players set the story. Some modules are written as a railroad - see "Dragons of Despair" as an example of it, and a lot of the new staff at WotC are story tellers not gamers. When you use a story tellers module, be ready to do a lot of work to make it playable. Not everyone wants to play "Critical Role the Game" /spaceballs.
There are fairly decent third party content made for 5E if you want modules that are balanced amongst the 3 pillars try troll lord games, goodman games or kobold press as some examples you could use. Or if you do a quick good search for Dungeon Magazine top modules you'll see a list of old modules that are damn good.
Let them play the game they want to play. I'd consider "not much combat" to mean one combat every two sessions. I think your players are likely bored/frustrated that they are playing D&D but they aren't really playing D&D, since D&D rules are principally about combat.
I'd run a Session 0.5 (maybe just 30 mins at the start of a session) to ascertain what they are comfortable with in the game. My players like there to be at least one combat per 4-5 hour session. If you want to run the whole module as "Combat = deviating" but they want to fight, then give them encounters to fight.
The thing is; the game was advertised as favoring the social and exploration pillars of play. D&D and this adventure did it well. I think it was a weird flex that's seen way too often in the space. As some of the replies have surmised.
The hares were replaced with Madcaps, the simple frogs with attack on site lizardfolk, and Bavlorna's tasks were ramped up to kind of reflect what they thought they were good at. They were harried so long rests were kept minimal (some old school D&D style interruptions) and after threatening Ol' Lorna and she not flinching an eye (I think they could take her, but you gotta keep up that poker face right?).. They learned some key elements and went to Tither and were a little better motivated to talk and explore.
D&D's a terrible combat simulator. So utilizing all 3 pillars of play is important. I'm finding it ok to focus on 2 of the 3. While letting them know if they look for combat, combat will find them.
It's tactical combat and its a game, its why a lot of players like combat for the game play. Role playing is fine, however most players if they are stuck rolling persuasion, intimidation and deception for session after session, most players are out. It's always fun when you see someone whose into CR want to recreate that and you see them back in the LFG boards a few months later. Doing a good dungeon delve, seeing what's there and freeing prisoners or convincing one faction to work with you is what made D&D a popular game. The story telling faction currently running WotC is *cute*, I'm sure there is a group of people who want the D&D equivalent of choose your own adventure game, but I'll hard pass on that take of D&D.
I just use 5E rules, the modules since Winninger has been running D&D has been seriously lacking, the modules weren't the greatest under Mearls but they were mostly playable without needing huge rewrites. I can't think of any module from 5E I would carry into other games, but I have a select group of 1/2/3/3.5E modules that I introduce new groups to all the time because they are good.