I am running dungeon of the mad mage, and I just threw two red dragons at my players (two separate encounters). Both times wall of force was used to take the dragons out of combat. One encounter, I was prepared and had a wizard there with disintegrate prepared. However, the next encounter they completely took the red dragon out of play and finished the encounter in about three rounds. How do you guys handle wall of force? I have thought about having a wizard in every encounter just to counterspell and disintegrate, however that can get boring and predictable. Just looking for some other ideas. Thanks in advance. In the case of dragons, I thought about giving them magic abilities or even items that would allow teleport-but again, trying not to be predictable or over saturate magic items.
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Against the right opponents, and in the right terrain, Wall of Force is a very potent spell. If the player is using it well, then you shouldn't go out of your way to defeat it. However, you should make the encounter dynamic enough to make it less overwhelming. Lair actions and minions can be used to force concentration checks. If you're underground, take advantage of cave-ins, rivers, hidden tunnels, and burrowing creatures.
Wall of Force only ends encounters when you stack all of the danger in a confined area.
Adult Red Dragons have an INT of 16, and are familiar with conflict. They should have no problem making a few arrangements to protect their lairs.
Wall of Force has a duration of 10 minutes, so how is your party using it for any purpose other than delaying the inevitable? Basically if they cast it, and run away, a dragon isn't going to just sit there and go "oh well", as soon as the spell ends it will pursue...eventually the party will run out of spell slots to delay it.
I echo Memnosyne in saying that you shouldn't punish players for using the spell if they are using it well, but using minions and lair actions to force concentration checks are a common way to counter any spell; you don't have to have a specific counter for this spell on hand every time.
If any game content ruins the game for the DM when used as intended, it's up to the DM to address that issue directly. Getting passive aggressive about it to "make a point" is unhealthy behavior.
Players rely on the DM to establish clear rules about what they are allowed to do.
I do want to make clear, I’m not trying to punish my players, I’m wanting to make it challenging for them. A little more perspective here is that the VBBEG is scrying and watching the players tactics-and this is one of my players favorite moves. So I, thinking as the VBBEG, am trying to figure out counter measures he would funnel down to his apprentices and minions. My players like to challenge me as much as I like to challenge them (we have a great time)- I’m just running out of ideas lol.
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Spells that don't need to pass through the wall would still work against the players. In the case of dragons this might not be helpful, but if they "trap" a caster, it might backfire on the player.
As a bit of home brew I think it's reasonable to extend mechanics like legendary resistance to things like wall of force . Spells like wall of force dominate over save spells because of their low probability of failure, extending the legendary resistance mechanic to it balances it out a little. Of course there's no save for this spell so it doesn't translate directly but legendary resistance is a bit of annoying mechanic any way so I treat it more like a dispel magic than an instant save any way.
I also think that sometimes certain creatures have abilities that conceptually would counter other abilities. For example I often let dragons use their breath weapon as a counter spell or dispel if they have it charged and it makes sense because it's a cool moment when the dragon uses it's breath to push back a magic laser shot at it by a wizard. It's better than just giving every boss counterspell as many DM's often do and when it burns a creatures resource it lets the casters be useful even when spells fail.
Mix that up with things that other people said like minions, environmental effects that attack concentration, strategies like hit and run tactics as well as the classic immunities and special abilities; and you'll have a fairly varied bosses which wont be able to be countered the same way every time.
Looking throught the red dragon spell list in Fizbans, they got some spell that could help. Suggestion being a quick fix, also heat metal, hypnotic pattern, all spells I would rule the wall of force wouldn't stop.
Looking throught the red dragon spell list in Fizbans, they got some spell that could help. Suggestion being a quick fix, also heat metal, hypnotic pattern, all spells I would rule the wall of force wouldn't stop.
The line of sight requirement of spells is actually really strange. I agree with you that intuitively it makes sense that these spells would go through a wall of force. However, spells are commonly interpreted as requiring an unobstructed line to the target which a wall of force and other transparent barriers like glass can obstruct.
Looking throught the red dragon spell list in Fizbans, they got some spell that could help. Suggestion being a quick fix, also heat metal, hypnotic pattern, all spells I would rule the wall of force wouldn't stop.
The line of sight requirement of spells is actually really strange. I agree with you that intuitively it makes sense that these spells would go through a wall of force. However, spells are commonly interpreted as requiring an unobstructed line to the target which a wall of force and other transparent barriers like glass can obstruct.
Fair point. It's how you decide to interpret magic.
In my ruling a fireball or lightning bolt spell wouldn't pass through a wall of force, cause the spell description basically says you shoot, so it flows from you. Other magic like suggestion or mind spike just happen in the targets mind.
It's how I would deal with wall of force, given a adult red dragon.
Actually rather surprised I haven't dealt with wall of force problems more.
As DM you can also rule that a large creature such as an adult dragon, is too big for the 10-foot-radius hemisphere/sphere casting of Wall of Force. While the various "adult dragon" stat blocks give them a size of "huge" (15x15ft), that's referring to their fighting space when using a battle grid, not their actual size. A Storm Giant, similarly, is marked as "huge" size but according to a quick Google search they stand about 26 feet tall. Wall of Force has text to indicate that if the wall cuts through a creature's space when it's cast, the caster chooses which side of the wall the creature is pushed to... but I wouldn't take that to mean you can force a creature into a space smaller than it's currently taking up. "Pushing" and "squishing" are not the same thing, and if you allow Wall of Force to "squish" creatures into tiny spaces, you've created a 1-hit-kill spell with no saving throw. Personally, I'd rule that the spell fails to cast if you try to use it to trap something bigger than the enclosed space you're creating, although I'd probably also warn the player in advance that they're about to try something the spell wasn't intended for.
Now, if these were some of the "young dragons" in the encounters you mentioned, then I suppose a 10-foot-radius sphere would be big enough to contain them, for as long as they could maintain concentration. But as other people have already pointed out, you only get a few minutes of a head start before a very angry dragon is chasing you down and bombarding you from the air (just because the stat block doesn't list it, there's no reason a flying dragon can't be dropping boulders on people from safely outside of spell range).
One additional option, would be to take the "automatically disintegrates objects made of magical force" text from the Disintegrate spell, and add it to a dragon's breath weapon (maybe only for "adult" or "ancient" dragons, though). Dragons are legendarily powerful magical creatures, and there's absolutely no reason you'd have to be limited to the abilities in their stat blocks. Also, any player who builds their whole strategy around reading the Monster Manual deserves some unpleasant surprises for metagaming. I suppose that option doesn't always work well for other creatures, though.
Honestly don't worry about it to much your their to have fun so are they . If you spend all your time trying to get around the wizard they will not have any fun nor will you I speak from experience .
Homebrew a Wand of Disintegration. 2-3 charges maybe? On encounters with "boss" types, a minion has one and uses it to destroy the wall. Why are minions suddenly carrying around these freakin' wands? Well, the BBEG HAS been watching and knows how to get rid of them. Sometimes the minion will get to fire the wand and clear the wall, other times the party kills said minion before the wand gets used. In either case, the group could find the wand while looting and now understand their enemies are wise to their trick and thus it might not be the "easy win" they had hoped for.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
So your saying the dm has no fun unless they can put the players through long encounters that exhaust both the players & them that wizard was designed to prevent that leave no opportunity for rp or anything else that session besides a single combat? I know I'm not having any fun behind the screen if all I'm doing is running combat for 4 hours and I know I have no fun infront of the screen when all I'm doing is fighting to stay alive for 4 hours.
1) You can decide that a wall of force doesn't provide total cover for magic that doesn't say it has a physical representation. Wall of force blocks physical objects, the only reason it blocks magical effects that don't have a physical representation is because the DM decides it provides total cover. Forcecage has wording specifically blocking spells which wall of force does not. If some spells can pass through a wall of force that helps with certain types of encounters and makes wall of force still useful since it blocks the physical but not spell effects.
2) Give the creature the Misty Step spell. This can work if you use the spell casting variant for the older dragons. Misty Step would be a really high priority item if I was a dragon. Misty Step has a range of self and only requires a space you can see within 30'. Since the spell has a range of self it is not blocked in terms of line of effect by total cover and since the spell only requires a target you can see, you should be able to Misty Step through a Wall of Force. A ring of Misty Step with limited charges, requiring attunement would also work.
3) Have more balanced encounters. The reason players use Wall of Force is to put the challenging creature on one side to deal with later while mopping up minions. If the battle has two difficult targets with minions some distance apart then the party might be able to split the opponents and make the fight easier but they might end up with two consecutive hard fights rather than one deadly one.
4) Set up the terrain for the encounter that may not be as favorable for wall of force. Wall of force works outside in a 10' radius sphere. If the creature is large enough it won't fit - so using really big creatures can prevent the tactic. Also, used outdoors it only allows one opponent to be taken out of the fight - so have fights with several challenging opponents instead of one particularly powerful one that the spell can neutralize. The wall version of wall of force is only useful outside when dealing with creatures with no ability to fly. However, you are running Mad Mage which means dungeons.
5) Counterspell and Anti-magic fields/zones - even an anti-magic level might prove interesting and a different kind of challenge.
One of the levels of DoMM has a statue that counterspells. Halaster statue p 290. There might be another - so you could toss in something like this once in a while.
Wall of force doesn't state that it's full cover nor qualifies as such. It does not offer concealment as well you are very easily seen. Tiny hut does for example, wall of force doesn't. Spells that don't rely on line of effect to reach the target are your friend for wall of force.
My suggestion if you want a dragons to be a true challenge? Have it be a spellcaster, have it know the spell antimagic field or the lesser known spell globe of invulnerability. Magic is the only reliable source mortal beings have to combat a dragon. Have it know greater invisibility so it can't be targeted by spells combine this with the misty step suggestion from earlier. Things like that. The one weakness of dragons is that the default dragon is treated like a flying fire breathing lizard when some older editions traditionally gave them spellcasting, especially at older ages. Adjust spells known for age and adjust for power. It'll make the dragons with legendary actions a real threat. Greater than out of the box tiamat anyway.
Wall of force doesn't state that it's full cover nor qualifies as such.
While a Wall of Force doesn't explicitly says it provide total cover, it certainly qualify as such since nothing can physically pass through the wall and cover be walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles. The Dev also offer an opinion in that sense.
Wall of force doesn't state that it's full cover nor qualifies as such.
While a Wall of Force doesn't explicitly says it provide total cover, it certainly qualify as such since nothing can physically pass through the wall and cover be walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles. The Dev also offer an opinion in that sense.
I wouldn't see the reason to mention that nothing physically can pass through the wall when that's all walls that are physical. Total cover isn't talking about something like wall of force in its example and if it's considered so it ends up with windows providing it. Total cover requires complete concealment, it's required. Another requirement for total cover is not being able to be targeted by a spell. As in not seen. Seeing the target is required for almost every spell, so is having a line of effect like say fireball if it's completely around you. The fact that you can be being targeted behind a wall of force with a spell that doesn't physically pass through means it isn't total cover because you can see them. The weave doesn't suddenly disappear inside a wall of force. The dev would be wrong by the games own admission and lore unless said dev thought every spell had a physical line of connection and that brings many more problems than wall of force itself would present.
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell," Doesn't qualify, many spells specify if you see the target and target directly. Hideous Laughter would still qualify for affecting the target. "although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect." Wall of force qualifies for this since it blocks anything physical. Fireball physically goes around corners as an example. The problem is that it can be 360 meaning it can't do that. "A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle." Something you blatantly not are since you're out in the open, albeit behind an invisible force. To be concealed is to be hidden away, the stealth skill defines it as such. Would you say the rogue can stealth (Conceal themselves or are already concealed) because they're behind a wall of force? No. It fails every definition of full cover because it isn't a normal wall, just like wall of fire isn't a normal wall and you can attack through it physically. There is a reason it isn't in the sage advice compendium.
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I am running dungeon of the mad mage, and I just threw two red dragons at my players (two separate encounters). Both times wall of force was used to take the dragons out of combat. One encounter, I was prepared and had a wizard there with disintegrate prepared. However, the next encounter they completely took the red dragon out of play and finished the encounter in about three rounds. How do you guys handle wall of force? I have thought about having a wizard in every encounter just to counterspell and disintegrate, however that can get boring and predictable. Just looking for some other ideas. Thanks in advance. In the case of dragons, I thought about giving them magic abilities or even items that would allow teleport-but again, trying not to be predictable or over saturate magic items.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Against the right opponents, and in the right terrain, Wall of Force is a very potent spell. If the player is using it well, then you shouldn't go out of your way to defeat it. However, you should make the encounter dynamic enough to make it less overwhelming. Lair actions and minions can be used to force concentration checks. If you're underground, take advantage of cave-ins, rivers, hidden tunnels, and burrowing creatures.
Wall of Force only ends encounters when you stack all of the danger in a confined area.
Adult Red Dragons have an INT of 16, and are familiar with conflict. They should have no problem making a few arrangements to protect their lairs.
Wall of Force has a duration of 10 minutes, so how is your party using it for any purpose other than delaying the inevitable? Basically if they cast it, and run away, a dragon isn't going to just sit there and go "oh well", as soon as the spell ends it will pursue...eventually the party will run out of spell slots to delay it.
I echo Memnosyne in saying that you shouldn't punish players for using the spell if they are using it well, but using minions and lair actions to force concentration checks are a common way to counter any spell; you don't have to have a specific counter for this spell on hand every time.
If any game content ruins the game for the DM when used as intended, it's up to the DM to address that issue directly. Getting passive aggressive about it to "make a point" is unhealthy behavior.
Players rely on the DM to establish clear rules about what they are allowed to do.
I do want to make clear, I’m not trying to punish my players, I’m wanting to make it challenging for them. A little more perspective here is that the VBBEG is scrying and watching the players tactics-and this is one of my players favorite moves. So I, thinking as the VBBEG, am trying to figure out counter measures he would funnel down to his apprentices and minions. My players like to challenge me as much as I like to challenge them (we have a great time)- I’m just running out of ideas lol.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
I like it.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Spells that don't need to pass through the wall would still work against the players. In the case of dragons this might not be helpful, but if they "trap" a caster, it might backfire on the player.
As a bit of home brew I think it's reasonable to extend mechanics like legendary resistance to things like wall of force . Spells like wall of force dominate over save spells because of their low probability of failure, extending the legendary resistance mechanic to it balances it out a little. Of course there's no save for this spell so it doesn't translate directly but legendary resistance is a bit of annoying mechanic any way so I treat it more like a dispel magic than an instant save any way.
I also think that sometimes certain creatures have abilities that conceptually would counter other abilities. For example I often let dragons use their breath weapon as a counter spell or dispel if they have it charged and it makes sense because it's a cool moment when the dragon uses it's breath to push back a magic laser shot at it by a wizard. It's better than just giving every boss counterspell as many DM's often do and when it burns a creatures resource it lets the casters be useful even when spells fail.
Mix that up with things that other people said like minions, environmental effects that attack concentration, strategies like hit and run tactics as well as the classic immunities and special abilities; and you'll have a fairly varied bosses which wont be able to be countered the same way every time.
Looking throught the red dragon spell list in Fizbans, they got some spell that could help. Suggestion being a quick fix, also heat metal, hypnotic pattern, all spells I would rule the wall of force wouldn't stop.
The line of sight requirement of spells is actually really strange. I agree with you that intuitively it makes sense that these spells would go through a wall of force. However, spells are commonly interpreted as requiring an unobstructed line to the target which a wall of force and other transparent barriers like glass can obstruct.
Fair point. It's how you decide to interpret magic.
In my ruling a fireball or lightning bolt spell wouldn't pass through a wall of force, cause the spell description basically says you shoot, so it flows from you. Other magic like suggestion or mind spike just happen in the targets mind.
It's how I would deal with wall of force, given a adult red dragon.
Actually rather surprised I haven't dealt with wall of force problems more.
As DM you can also rule that a large creature such as an adult dragon, is too big for the 10-foot-radius hemisphere/sphere casting of Wall of Force. While the various "adult dragon" stat blocks give them a size of "huge" (15x15ft), that's referring to their fighting space when using a battle grid, not their actual size. A Storm Giant, similarly, is marked as "huge" size but according to a quick Google search they stand about 26 feet tall. Wall of Force has text to indicate that if the wall cuts through a creature's space when it's cast, the caster chooses which side of the wall the creature is pushed to... but I wouldn't take that to mean you can force a creature into a space smaller than it's currently taking up. "Pushing" and "squishing" are not the same thing, and if you allow Wall of Force to "squish" creatures into tiny spaces, you've created a 1-hit-kill spell with no saving throw. Personally, I'd rule that the spell fails to cast if you try to use it to trap something bigger than the enclosed space you're creating, although I'd probably also warn the player in advance that they're about to try something the spell wasn't intended for.
Now, if these were some of the "young dragons" in the encounters you mentioned, then I suppose a 10-foot-radius sphere would be big enough to contain them, for as long as they could maintain concentration. But as other people have already pointed out, you only get a few minutes of a head start before a very angry dragon is chasing you down and bombarding you from the air (just because the stat block doesn't list it, there's no reason a flying dragon can't be dropping boulders on people from safely outside of spell range).
One additional option, would be to take the "automatically disintegrates objects made of magical force" text from the Disintegrate spell, and add it to a dragon's breath weapon (maybe only for "adult" or "ancient" dragons, though). Dragons are legendarily powerful magical creatures, and there's absolutely no reason you'd have to be limited to the abilities in their stat blocks. Also, any player who builds their whole strategy around reading the Monster Manual deserves some unpleasant surprises for metagaming. I suppose that option doesn't always work well for other creatures, though.
Honestly don't worry about it to much your their to have fun so are they . If you spend all your time trying to get around the wizard they will not have any fun nor will you I speak from experience .
Homebrew a Wand of Disintegration. 2-3 charges maybe? On encounters with "boss" types, a minion has one and uses it to destroy the wall. Why are minions suddenly carrying around these freakin' wands? Well, the BBEG HAS been watching and knows how to get rid of them. Sometimes the minion will get to fire the wand and clear the wall, other times the party kills said minion before the wand gets used. In either case, the group could find the wand while looting and now understand their enemies are wise to their trick and thus it might not be the "easy win" they had hoped for.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
So your saying the dm has no fun unless they can put the players through long encounters that exhaust both the players & them that wizard was designed to prevent that leave no opportunity for rp or anything else that session besides a single combat? I know I'm not having any fun behind the screen if all I'm doing is running combat for 4 hours and I know I have no fun infront of the screen when all I'm doing is fighting to stay alive for 4 hours.
Blade of disaster last for 10 rounds can pass through any barrier including wall of force having some guy use a scroll of blade of disaster.
A couple suggestions.
1) You can decide that a wall of force doesn't provide total cover for magic that doesn't say it has a physical representation. Wall of force blocks physical objects, the only reason it blocks magical effects that don't have a physical representation is because the DM decides it provides total cover. Forcecage has wording specifically blocking spells which wall of force does not. If some spells can pass through a wall of force that helps with certain types of encounters and makes wall of force still useful since it blocks the physical but not spell effects.
2) Give the creature the Misty Step spell. This can work if you use the spell casting variant for the older dragons. Misty Step would be a really high priority item if I was a dragon. Misty Step has a range of self and only requires a space you can see within 30'. Since the spell has a range of self it is not blocked in terms of line of effect by total cover and since the spell only requires a target you can see, you should be able to Misty Step through a Wall of Force. A ring of Misty Step with limited charges, requiring attunement would also work.
3) Have more balanced encounters. The reason players use Wall of Force is to put the challenging creature on one side to deal with later while mopping up minions. If the battle has two difficult targets with minions some distance apart then the party might be able to split the opponents and make the fight easier but they might end up with two consecutive hard fights rather than one deadly one.
4) Set up the terrain for the encounter that may not be as favorable for wall of force. Wall of force works outside in a 10' radius sphere. If the creature is large enough it won't fit - so using really big creatures can prevent the tactic. Also, used outdoors it only allows one opponent to be taken out of the fight - so have fights with several challenging opponents instead of one particularly powerful one that the spell can neutralize. The wall version of wall of force is only useful outside when dealing with creatures with no ability to fly. However, you are running Mad Mage which means dungeons.
5) Counterspell and Anti-magic fields/zones - even an anti-magic level might prove interesting and a different kind of challenge.
One of the levels of DoMM has a statue that counterspells. Halaster statue p 290. There might be another - so you could toss in something like this once in a while.
Wall of force doesn't state that it's full cover nor qualifies as such. It does not offer concealment as well you are very easily seen. Tiny hut does for example, wall of force doesn't. Spells that don't rely on line of effect to reach the target are your friend for wall of force.
My suggestion if you want a dragons to be a true challenge? Have it be a spellcaster, have it know the spell antimagic field or the lesser known spell globe of invulnerability. Magic is the only reliable source mortal beings have to combat a dragon. Have it know greater invisibility so it can't be targeted by spells combine this with the misty step suggestion from earlier. Things like that. The one weakness of dragons is that the default dragon is treated like a flying fire breathing lizard when some older editions traditionally gave them spellcasting, especially at older ages. Adjust spells known for age and adjust for power. It'll make the dragons with legendary actions a real threat. Greater than out of the box tiamat anyway.
While a Wall of Force doesn't explicitly says it provide total cover, it certainly qualify as such since nothing can physically pass through the wall and cover be walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles. The Dev also offer an opinion in that sense.
I wouldn't see the reason to mention that nothing physically can pass through the wall when that's all walls that are physical. Total cover isn't talking about something like wall of force in its example and if it's considered so it ends up with windows providing it. Total cover requires complete concealment, it's required. Another requirement for total cover is not being able to be targeted by a spell. As in not seen. Seeing the target is required for almost every spell, so is having a line of effect like say fireball if it's completely around you. The fact that you can be being targeted behind a wall of force with a spell that doesn't physically pass through means it isn't total cover because you can see them. The weave doesn't suddenly disappear inside a wall of force. The dev would be wrong by the games own admission and lore unless said dev thought every spell had a physical line of connection and that brings many more problems than wall of force itself would present.
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell," Doesn't qualify, many spells specify if you see the target and target directly. Hideous Laughter would still qualify for affecting the target.
"although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect." Wall of force qualifies for this since it blocks anything physical. Fireball physically goes around corners as an example. The problem is that it can be 360 meaning it can't do that.
"A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle." Something you blatantly not are since you're out in the open, albeit behind an invisible force.
To be concealed is to be hidden away, the stealth skill defines it as such. Would you say the rogue can stealth (Conceal themselves or are already concealed) because they're behind a wall of force? No.
It fails every definition of full cover because it isn't a normal wall, just like wall of fire isn't a normal wall and you can attack through it physically. There is a reason it isn't in the sage advice compendium.