I've got an idea that I'd like to get help resolving, because I think this is beyond my abilities. My goal here is to get the player's character to kill his wife that died "a little over a year ago."
Here is his backstory that he provided me... abridged for brevity: Parents are (mother) high elf and (father) drow. He inherited drow features. This was a huge nono and so Yuli (my player's character) grew up, disguised by magic, in the surface world, with those that knew of the affair being told Yuli died at birth. He survived and grew up. Fell in love with a drow female. They were careless in the Underdark and were discovered. All of the secrets were discovered. Before their execution (mother, Yuli, and lover) they were able to escape. The mother died during the escape, sacrificing herself. They ran until they felt they were safe. When they finally stopped, Yuli discovered his lover had been shot at some point, and so she died in his arms.
He's a chaotic-neutral highelf (looks like drow) gloomstalker ranger. Through some method I will give him (and or the party) the power to go back in time.
My thoughts so far are to have him kill himself because somehow he finds out he's the one that shot her, or perhaps to kill Rinna (his lover) because he finds out she was resurrected and turned into some abomination for her transgressions, living a prolonged tortured existence.
While I think I could have a version of him do it while the player version watches, I think the "holy poo" factor would be more significant if I could somehow guarantee that HE is the one to do it. And so I turn to the hive mind that is interwebs.
One easy way to do it would be to have the party fighting something else in the woods nearby at the time. Not all shots that a player takes hit, and most of the time we just assume that a stray arrow or whatnot goes...somewhere? Well, this time you could narrate how the shot goes wide, flying off into the woods. Maybe allow a Perception check to notice that it didn't make the normal thunk, or that there is a gasp/scream in the distance.
Alternatively there are spells, like Enemies Abound, Suggestion, Command, etc. that could force the shot to occur as well.
I can understand you wanting a dramatic moment, and I agree that the scene you've envisioned is dramatic.
However, you're attempting to force the player-character to do something. What you seem to want is a outcome to happen no matter what the player does.
That's not an role-playing game, that's a novel you've written, and the players are just ( kind of ) acting it out for you.
That's taking away player agency.
Honestly, if I was the player, and the DM told me "your shot missed, and it flies off into the woods, and kills your mother" ( or lover, or self ), it would not be particularly dramatic moment. I would recognize that I wasn't responsible - it literally was the DM who was responsible for the death. Likewise for magic which forces the Player to act.
And I'd be pissed off.
I think what you can do, is set up a dramatic situation / question : "can the player figure out what is going on before they do something unfortunate, or will there be a tragic outcome"?
Layer on complications and reversals, make it clear that certain choices come with dramatic or situational costs ( not hard to do with time travel ), let the player choose the outcome - then you as the DM have to figure out how to make each outcome dramatically satisfying.
Maybe you can envision a situation where the player can find a non-dramatically satisfying solution ( "I'll just unlock this door, and the fleeing captives get out here, and bypass the guards, and we all get to live happily ever after"), in which case you need to alter circumstances to give that path dramatic tension ( the gate is barred, as it leads to the Vale of Sighs, which is haunted by undead creatures ). But do not overdo this to block off every dramatic choice other than they one you think should happen.
When the players have - or feel they have - complete free will to choose their path, and they find no matter what they do is dramatic and exciting, they think you're running a great game, and are being a great DM.
When the players have - or feel they have - no way to influence the outcome of events, then they don't care if the path they're being shoved down is dramatically interesting; they just think you're being a dick.
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Thanks, Vedexant, for the lesson. I'm not trying to make him do it. I'm hoping to get the advice to fill in the blanks that leads him to making that decision. His wife is dead, she died a year ago, and there's nothing that will change that. If he goes back in time to save her, she will just die some other way So, then it IS by the DM that she died, but originally the player already killed her in his story.
While I appreciate the idea, Bbeards, the "stray arrow flies off and kills your wife" isn't the path I was hoping for, but I appreciate the contribution.
What I'm hoping you can all help with is providing ideas and situations to get the party to the scenario as Vedexant more elegantly explained than I originally did. I'm not trying to take away agency, but I want to find the best possible path for everyone involved to try to get here. If I can't do it, then I won't. Either way, she's dead.
Ok, that changes things then. If that is the case, what about this then. He and the party have accomplished some major things, helped people, saved things, etc. While back in time, he somehow stops her from getting shot, perhaps by distracting the previous enemy, killing them, whatever. After doing this though, he begins to have visions of a new life. One in which she didn't die at this time, and that puts him on a different path and choices. He doesn't meet up with the party, doesn't do the good that he has done. In order to keep what is current, and the major good that has been done, he has to take the shot to keep time on its correct path. You could even have other party members experience similar visions at the same time of where they would currently be without the character.
It puts a lot more emotion into it, but it also runs the risk of what happens if he doesn't take the choice. Is it "then end" of everything, or is there some sort of temporal shielding. You know, normal time travel risks and all.
Parents are (mother) high elf and (father) drow. He inherited drow features. This was a huge nono and so Yuli (my player's character) grew up, disguised by magic, in the surface world, with those that knew of the affair being told Yuli died at birth.
He survived and grew up. Fell in love with a drow female. They were careless in the Underdark and were discovered. All of the secrets were discovered.
Before their execution (mother, Yuli, and lover) they were able to escape. The mother died during the escape, sacrificing herself. They ran until they felt they were safe. When they finally stopped, Yuli discovered his lover had been shot at some point, and so she died in his arms.
One easy way to do it would be to have the party fighting something else in the woods nearby at the time. Not all shots that a player takes hit, and most of the time we just assume that a stray arrow or whatnot goes...somewhere? Well, this time you could narrate how the shot goes wide, flying off into the woods. Maybe allow a Perception check to notice that it didn't make the normal thunk, or that there is a gasp/scream in the distance.
Alternatively there are spells, like Enemies Abound, Suggestion, Command, etc. that could force the shot to occur as well.
I can understand you wanting a dramatic moment, and I agree that the scene you've envisioned is dramatic.
However, you're attempting to force the player-character to do something. What you seem to want is a outcome to happen no matter what the player does.
That's not an role-playing game, that's a novel you've written, and the players are just ( kind of ) acting it out for you.
That's taking away player agency.
Honestly, if I was the player, and the DM told me "your shot missed, and it flies off into the woods, and kills your mother" ( or lover, or self ), it would not be particularly dramatic moment. I would recognize that I wasn't responsible - it literally was the DM who was responsible for the death. Likewise for magic which forces the Player to act.
And I'd be pissed off.
I think what you can do, is set up a dramatic situation / question : "can the player figure out what is going on before they do something unfortunate, or will there be a tragic outcome"?
Layer on complications and reversals, make it clear that certain choices come with dramatic or situational costs ( not hard to do with time travel ), let the player choose the outcome - then you as the DM have to figure out how to make each outcome dramatically satisfying.
Maybe you can envision a situation where the player can find a non-dramatically satisfying solution ( "I'll just unlock this door, and the fleeing captives get out here, and bypass the guards, and we all get to live happily ever after"), in which case you need to alter circumstances to give that path dramatic tension ( the gate is barred, as it leads to the Vale of Sighs, which is haunted by undead creatures ). But do not overdo this to block off every dramatic choice other than they one you think should happen.
When the players have - or feel they have - complete free will to choose their path, and they find no matter what they do is dramatic and exciting, they think you're running a great game, and are being a great DM.
When the players have - or feel they have - no way to influence the outcome of events, then they don't care if the path they're being shoved down is dramatically interesting; they just think you're being a dick.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Thanks, Vedexant, for the lesson. I'm not trying to make him do it. I'm hoping to get the advice to fill in the blanks that leads him to making that decision. His wife is dead, she died a year ago, and there's nothing that will change that. If he goes back in time to save her, she will just die some other way So, then it IS by the DM that she died, but originally the player already killed her in his story.
While I appreciate the idea, Bbeards, the "stray arrow flies off and kills your wife" isn't the path I was hoping for, but I appreciate the contribution.
What I'm hoping you can all help with is providing ideas and situations to get the party to the scenario as Vedexant more elegantly explained than I originally did. I'm not trying to take away agency, but I want to find the best possible path for everyone involved to try to get here. If I can't do it, then I won't. Either way, she's dead.
Ok, that changes things then. If that is the case, what about this then. He and the party have accomplished some major things, helped people, saved things, etc. While back in time, he somehow stops her from getting shot, perhaps by distracting the previous enemy, killing them, whatever. After doing this though, he begins to have visions of a new life. One in which she didn't die at this time, and that puts him on a different path and choices. He doesn't meet up with the party, doesn't do the good that he has done. In order to keep what is current, and the major good that has been done, he has to take the shot to keep time on its correct path. You could even have other party members experience similar visions at the same time of where they would currently be without the character.
It puts a lot more emotion into it, but it also runs the risk of what happens if he doesn't take the choice. Is it "then end" of everything, or is there some sort of temporal shielding. You know, normal time travel risks and all.
I like this, it's a good alternative path if he avoids killing her. Instead of a time paradox, it's a decent moral dilemma. Kudos.