Hey Fellow DM's How do you guys avoid railroading the players while making sure you are able to be prepared and not improvising terribly? I am sure there is a simple solution but I haven't found it :/
Sometimes you should have a backup plan. If your players are in a village in a forest and you've prepared lots of buildings and taverns in the village, that's great! But sometimes your players can do unexpected things, like go foraging in the forest. In that case, you should have a basic idea of the setting the session is in so you can prepare for unexpected shenanigans. If you struggle with improvising, try and find a balance between complete preparation and on-the-spot ideas - shopping sessions or roleplay and travel sessions don't need too much planning, but the BBEG encounter needs lots. It really depends on your situation. Also, ask your players and see if they think you're railroading. If they're fine with your current style, then you don't need to change anything. If they want a bit more freedom in terms of choices, then place them in an open environment where you have planned some things but not everything, so it's up to their interpretation. Players shape your story. I also highly suggest making a session-planning template and customising it to the way your players interact with your story. Maybe they often ask for NPC names, so write down a short list of them. These are just ideas to make yourself more prepared for if your players do something you didn't prepare for.
Hey Fellow DM's How do you guys avoid railroading the players while making sure you are able to be prepared and not improvising terribly? I am sure there is a simple solution but I haven't found it :/
Ask the players at the end of each session what they're doing next session. Prepare that. You'll still do a fair amount of improvising, but it makes it easier.
Also, remember that railroading is a continuum. You can limit the range of options without forcing a single course of action.
I avoid rairoading by making my own adventure instead of published material, and try to offer choices, different venues, options for things to doand alternate ending for adventure depending on choice made and route taken.
Think of it like this...you are the person who designs a race. You place down the obstacles, you place down the start and finish points, and you make sure people follow the rules. The story though happens when the participants begin the race. So thinking Around the World in 80 Days. The start and finish points are set, the time limit is set, but the story was what happened between the start and finish and how the characters stumbled, overcame obstacles, or otherwise got from A to B. That old cliche...it's about the journey not the destination.
That said, sometimes you'll still have to find yourself railroading players for their own good. There are times when I have just outright said that they get up and head back to town to resupply and rest up. Or dropped a travelling merchant down in front of them so they can resupply.
If the players might go in any number of directions, don't try to plan every direction fully in advance. Think in terms of session time. Plan about a session's worth of content in any direction and then flesh them out between sessions once the players commit to a path. That way you can present your party with meaningful choices without burning yourself out trying to prep it all.
a list of NPCs with names and generic backstories. never leave home without one!
oh, they're walking right past the friendly farmer to talk to the background kid peeling potatoes? yeah, that's (lets see, the third name down is...) Jed Wassot the miller's boy. he seems a little sweaty and distracted with his stool in the sun but you might notice his furtive looks at the barn. there occasionally you see a figure whisk by the doors, skirts tied up at her knees for ease of movement. oh, and now you're going over there to meddle as well? well, your shadow in the doorway startles (doot doot doot, seventh name down is...) raven haired Marissa but she hasn't got time for you. it appears she's been doing all the work that would take her busily back and forth across the yawning barn entrance and now that you're here she's beginning on the neglected stalls further in. in that same direction two big farm dogs sit up and quietly take notice of you. your wandering about like a tax collector has begun to worry the farmer. vaguely you recall hearing something about how perilous a job tax collecting is out at the forest's edge. maybe it's time to get to the point...
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Hey Fellow DM's How do you guys avoid railroading the players while making sure you are able to be prepared and not improvising terribly? I am sure there is a simple solution but I haven't found it :/
Thanks for the help!
Here's what I think:
Some groups of players are like bloodhounds: You throw them a clue, and they'll chase until the merry end, never stopping, never looking to the sides, just dragging on their leash until they finally sink their teeth in ... whatever it is.
And some groups are like multiple headless chickens: Whatever you do, they just run about randomly, and if two of them run in the same direction at the same time, it's pure random chance.
Either is bad. So you really want like one player from each group, and 2-3 more who are just normal people. So you get both some improvisation, some goal driven focus, and some normal people to work with.
Edit: Oh, I should add - finding normal people who play RPG's is the challenge =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Hey Fellow DM's How do you guys avoid railroading the players while making sure you are able to be prepared and not improvising terribly? I am sure there is a simple solution but I haven't found it :/
Ask the players at the end of each session what they're doing next session. Prepare that. You'll still do a fair amount of improvising, but it makes it easier.
Also, remember that railroading is a continuum. You can limit the range of options without forcing a single course of action.
+1. Have them decide at the end so you can prep. I’m usually even pretty transparent about it, to the point where they feel guilty if next week comes and they say they actually want to go a different direction. Now, there’s always going to be some unexpected twists and turns, but this usually gives me enough to work with when I have to improv.
Also, keep a list of names handy. So when the party chats up bartender No. 2 or guard No. 16, you can have something ready other than everyone being Bob or Sarah.
Also, keep a list of names handy. So when the party chats up bartender No. 2 or guard No. 16, you can have something ready other than everyone being Bob or Sarah.
But having every bartender be named Bob would be funny.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I just build the world. Every npc has a basic stat block. But they all have a life and a tiny backstory. Some are more elaborate than others. Hundreds of them. I'll have maps ready and encounters available at all times in every area.
I pretty much make up everything as the players go on from the top of my imagination from there. The players create the campaign. I just craft the living, breathing world around them.
Perhaps I should elaborate a little bit more and explain a slightly seperate problem,
So let’s say there is an assassin who has been killing only people who live in barns right, so they see a shadow flashing around in the barn. And they decide to do the only logical choice and go to the forest to sacrifice a cow… obviously.
so how do I get them back to the murder mystery, cus having the sacrifice of a cow summoning a god who says go to the barn and solve a murder mystery, isn’t great. And having a session where the players wander around the forest is worse.
Perhaps I should elaborate a little bit more and explain a slightly seperate problem,
So let’s say there is an assassin who has been killing only people who live in barns right, so they see a shadow flashing around in the barn. And they decide to do the only logical choice and go to the forest to sacrifice a cow… obviously.
so how do I get them back to the murder mystery, cus having the sacrifice of a cow summoning a god who says go to the barn and solve a murder mystery, isn’t great. And having a session where the players wander around the forest is worse.
so what do I do?
Honestly, I would take that as a signal that the players just aren't interested in chasing down an assassin. I don't know that we GMs talk about it enough, but sometimes we come up with what we think is an interesting hook, but the players reject it.
Every so often I send an anonymous google form to get feedback on sessions and what they enjoyed/didn't enjoy. That way I can get a clear picture on things. Some people do stars and wishes to gain the same info. The point is that not every hook we dangle in front of the players is going to be of interest. If I'd had that rejection of a clear quest/adventure hook I'd abandon that storyline to be honest. I've done it before where I've just ripped up what I had in mind. That's where building the world really comes in. Do you know what else lives in the forest?
Is there a hermit druid who is going to try and save the cow? Is there a pack of dire wolves that have taken up residence? Perhaps there's a cursed Dryad living nearby?
If you know what else is in the forest (by building the world), you're a bit more free to improvise an alternative quest hook for the party if they reject the first one you dangle.
Perhaps I should elaborate a little bit more and explain a slightly seperate problem,
So let’s say there is an assassin who has been killing only people who live in barns right, so they see a shadow flashing around in the barn. And they decide to do the only logical choice and go to the forest to sacrifice a cow… obviously.
so how do I get them back to the murder mystery, cus having the sacrifice of a cow summoning a god who says go to the barn and solve a murder mystery, isn’t great. And having a session where the players wander around the forest is worse.
so what do I do?
You don't get them back into the mystery. They have moved on and opened up a new thread. If you really need them to go and deal with that assassin then have a survivor hiding in the forest nearby that tell the players about what they had seen. With enough info from the NPC they may go back to figure it out when there are further consequences for leaving the assassin alone and delving off into a new thread of their story.
If they are wandering around the forest they could find the assassins campsite with info about some future plans. Say a list of targets. Which may lead the players to cut off the assassin during a part of it. Or warning some of the targets ultimately leading to an encounter with the assassin.
Perhaps I should elaborate a little bit more and explain a slightly seperate problem,
So let’s say there is an assassin who has been killing only people who live in barns right, so they see a shadow flashing around in the barn. And they decide to do the only logical choice and go to the forest to sacrifice a cow… obviously.
so how do I get them back to the murder mystery, cus having the sacrifice of a cow summoning a god who says go to the barn and solve a murder mystery, isn’t great. And having a session where the players wander around the forest is worse.
so what do I do?
Think about the plot from the bad guy's perspective. If the players are off playing in the woods, then the assassin is free to keep killing. So they'll keep killing, pursuing their own goals, and eventually something bad comes back to the players.
You might still need to backburner this plot as long as the players aren't interested, but next few times they're in the area, drop details about how the murders have gotten worse, how things are escalating, and with all the dead farmers cities are facing a food shortage, etc. Eventually it comes back to the players deciding they should get back involved.
In the mean time, I always recommend presenting your players with multiple plot hooks and seeing which ones the players go for, that way, when it's player directed, you don't need to worry about railroading players to follow your specific plot hook.
Perhaps I should elaborate a little bit more and explain a slightly seperate problem,
So let’s say there is an assassin who has been killing only people who live in barns right, so they see a shadow flashing around in the barn. And they decide to do the only logical choice and go to the forest to sacrifice a cow… obviously.
so how do I get them back to the murder mystery, cus having the sacrifice of a cow summoning a god who says go to the barn and solve a murder mystery, isn’t great. And having a session where the players wander around the forest is worse.
so what do I do?
Think about the plot from the bad guy's perspective. If the players are off playing in the woods, then the assassin is free to keep killing. So they'll keep killing, pursuing their own goals, and eventually something bad comes back to the players.
You might still need to backburner this plot as long as the players aren't interested, but next few times they're in the area, drop details about how the murders have gotten worse, how things are escalating, and with all the dead farmers cities are facing a food shortage, etc. Eventually it comes back to the players deciding they should get back involved.
In the mean time, I always recommend presenting your players with multiple plot hooks and seeing which ones the players go for, that way, when it's player directed, you don't need to worry about railroading players to follow your specific plot hook.
Best thing I have heard yet. Thank you all very much!
there's always the option of (falsely) imprisoning them at the end of one session and then picking it back up next session with peon #3 running into the gaol yelling "there's been another murder! i guess it can't be these guys! gosh, but who will save us?"
just a little light railroading, you know?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Think not in terms of story, but in terms of people, situations, and locations. Let the story write itself, even if it goes against whatever you had in mind.
In my experience, groups and level of experience also tends to influence this. e.g. experienced players might actually tend to follow the path of a story because they instinctively recognise the clues or events as signposts of the adventure. Newer players with less exposure might be more likely to go off the track in that sense. Either are fine, as they both create opportunities and unexpected moments.
Having said that, I generally try to have some kind of mental or written prep in the form of
1. What's the big, overarching direction of events? It may or may not progress in this session, depending on how the chips fall.
2. Likely sidequests/events - Given the situation from last session - what are fairly plausible interactions - good to prepare a little bit more for these - especially if you are looking towards having vtt maps ready and the like.
3. As others have suggested, lists of names of NPC's, taverns, shops, etc. at the ready for if/when things go off the rails.
Finally - I have previously found myself struggling with the sense that I am railroading when I am dropping a big hint. But it is really important to also remember that as DMs we have all the knowledge, and what makes things obvious to us, might not always be as obvious to the group - so dropping a hint with a bit less subtlety sometimes is actually a good way to give the player a nudge - and that isn't railroading unless you lock down their options or actions.
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Hey Fellow DM's
How do you guys avoid railroading the players while making sure you are able to be prepared and not improvising terribly? I am sure there is a simple solution but I haven't found it :/
Thanks for the help!
Sometimes you should have a backup plan. If your players are in a village in a forest and you've prepared lots of buildings and taverns in the village, that's great! But sometimes your players can do unexpected things, like go foraging in the forest. In that case, you should have a basic idea of the setting the session is in so you can prepare for unexpected shenanigans. If you struggle with improvising, try and find a balance between complete preparation and on-the-spot ideas - shopping sessions or roleplay and travel sessions don't need too much planning, but the BBEG encounter needs lots. It really depends on your situation. Also, ask your players and see if they think you're railroading. If they're fine with your current style, then you don't need to change anything. If they want a bit more freedom in terms of choices, then place them in an open environment where you have planned some things but not everything, so it's up to their interpretation. Players shape your story. I also highly suggest making a session-planning template and customising it to the way your players interact with your story. Maybe they often ask for NPC names, so write down a short list of them. These are just ideas to make yourself more prepared for if your players do something you didn't prepare for.
If anybody would like my GMing playlists
battles: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2mRp57MBAz9ZsVpw895IzZ?si=243bee43442a4703
exploration: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0qk0aKm5yI4K6VrlcaKrDj?si=81057bef509043f3
town/tavern: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/49JSv1kK0bUyQ9LVpKmZlr?si=a88b1dd9bab54111
character deaths: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6k7WhylJEjSqWC0pBuAtFD?si=3e897fa2a2dd469e
I usually have the main campaign with a bunch of side encounters.
Goblins have kidnapped the miller's daughter! - main campaign hook.
If the PCs don't jump at that then there will be consequences - the villagers will not look kindly at people that don't help.
The PCs can freely choose to do something else - prepare 2 or 3 other things they will encounter in the surrounding forest or in the village itself.
It is possible, the side encounters can change into the main campaign.
Gotta be flexible, players will do the craziest and least expected things.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Ask the players at the end of each session what they're doing next session. Prepare that. You'll still do a fair amount of improvising, but it makes it easier.
Also, remember that railroading is a continuum. You can limit the range of options without forcing a single course of action.
I avoid rairoading by making my own adventure instead of published material, and try to offer choices, different venues, options for things to doand alternate ending for adventure depending on choice made and route taken.
Build the world not the story.
Think of it like this...you are the person who designs a race. You place down the obstacles, you place down the start and finish points, and you make sure people follow the rules. The story though happens when the participants begin the race. So thinking Around the World in 80 Days. The start and finish points are set, the time limit is set, but the story was what happened between the start and finish and how the characters stumbled, overcame obstacles, or otherwise got from A to B. That old cliche...it's about the journey not the destination.
That said, sometimes you'll still have to find yourself railroading players for their own good. There are times when I have just outright said that they get up and head back to town to resupply and rest up. Or dropped a travelling merchant down in front of them so they can resupply.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
If the players might go in any number of directions, don't try to plan every direction fully in advance. Think in terms of session time. Plan about a session's worth of content in any direction and then flesh them out between sessions once the players commit to a path. That way you can present your party with meaningful choices without burning yourself out trying to prep it all.
a list of NPCs with names and generic backstories. never leave home without one!
oh, they're walking right past the friendly farmer to talk to the background kid peeling potatoes? yeah, that's (lets see, the third name down is...) Jed Wassot the miller's boy. he seems a little sweaty and distracted with his stool in the sun but you might notice his furtive looks at the barn. there occasionally you see a figure whisk by the doors, skirts tied up at her knees for ease of movement. oh, and now you're going over there to meddle as well? well, your shadow in the doorway startles (doot doot doot, seventh name down is...) raven haired Marissa but she hasn't got time for you. it appears she's been doing all the work that would take her busily back and forth across the yawning barn entrance and now that you're here she's beginning on the neglected stalls further in. in that same direction two big farm dogs sit up and quietly take notice of you. your wandering about like a tax collector has begun to worry the farmer. vaguely you recall hearing something about how perilous a job tax collecting is out at the forest's edge. maybe it's time to get to the point...
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Here's what I think:
Some groups of players are like bloodhounds: You throw them a clue, and they'll chase until the merry end, never stopping, never looking to the sides, just dragging on their leash until they finally sink their teeth in ... whatever it is.
And some groups are like multiple headless chickens: Whatever you do, they just run about randomly, and if two of them run in the same direction at the same time, it's pure random chance.
Either is bad. So you really want like one player from each group, and 2-3 more who are just normal people. So you get both some improvisation, some goal driven focus, and some normal people to work with.
Edit: Oh, I should add - finding normal people who play RPG's is the challenge =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
+1. Have them decide at the end so you can prep.
I’m usually even pretty transparent about it, to the point where they feel guilty if next week comes and they say they actually want to go a different direction. Now, there’s always going to be some unexpected twists and turns, but this usually gives me enough to work with when I have to improv.
Also, keep a list of names handy. So when the party chats up bartender No. 2 or guard No. 16, you can have something ready other than everyone being Bob or Sarah.
But having every bartender be named Bob would be funny.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I just build the world. Every npc has a basic stat block. But they all have a life and a tiny backstory. Some are more elaborate than others. Hundreds of them. I'll have maps ready and encounters available at all times in every area.
I pretty much make up everything as the players go on from the top of my imagination from there. The players create the campaign. I just craft the living, breathing world around them.
Thanks for the help so far guys!
Perhaps I should elaborate a little bit more and explain a slightly seperate problem,
So let’s say there is an assassin who has been killing only people who live in barns right, so they see a shadow flashing around in the barn. And they decide to do the only logical choice and go to the forest to sacrifice a cow… obviously.
so how do I get them back to the murder mystery, cus having the sacrifice of a cow summoning a god who says go to the barn and solve a murder mystery, isn’t great. And having a session where the players wander around the forest is worse.
so what do I do?
Honestly, I would take that as a signal that the players just aren't interested in chasing down an assassin. I don't know that we GMs talk about it enough, but sometimes we come up with what we think is an interesting hook, but the players reject it.
Every so often I send an anonymous google form to get feedback on sessions and what they enjoyed/didn't enjoy. That way I can get a clear picture on things. Some people do stars and wishes to gain the same info. The point is that not every hook we dangle in front of the players is going to be of interest. If I'd had that rejection of a clear quest/adventure hook I'd abandon that storyline to be honest. I've done it before where I've just ripped up what I had in mind. That's where building the world really comes in. Do you know what else lives in the forest?
Is there a hermit druid who is going to try and save the cow? Is there a pack of dire wolves that have taken up residence? Perhaps there's a cursed Dryad living nearby?
If you know what else is in the forest (by building the world), you're a bit more free to improvise an alternative quest hook for the party if they reject the first one you dangle.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
You don't get them back into the mystery. They have moved on and opened up a new thread. If you really need them to go and deal with that assassin then have a survivor hiding in the forest nearby that tell the players about what they had seen. With enough info from the NPC they may go back to figure it out when there are further consequences for leaving the assassin alone and delving off into a new thread of their story.
If they are wandering around the forest they could find the assassins campsite with info about some future plans. Say a list of targets. Which may lead the players to cut off the assassin during a part of it. Or warning some of the targets ultimately leading to an encounter with the assassin.
Think about the plot from the bad guy's perspective. If the players are off playing in the woods, then the assassin is free to keep killing. So they'll keep killing, pursuing their own goals, and eventually something bad comes back to the players.
You might still need to backburner this plot as long as the players aren't interested, but next few times they're in the area, drop details about how the murders have gotten worse, how things are escalating, and with all the dead farmers cities are facing a food shortage, etc. Eventually it comes back to the players deciding they should get back involved.
In the mean time, I always recommend presenting your players with multiple plot hooks and seeing which ones the players go for, that way, when it's player directed, you don't need to worry about railroading players to follow your specific plot hook.
Best thing I have heard yet. Thank you all very much!
there's always the option of (falsely) imprisoning them at the end of one session and then picking it back up next session with peon #3 running into the gaol yelling "there's been another murder! i guess it can't be these guys! gosh, but who will save us?"
just a little light railroading, you know?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Think not in terms of story, but in terms of people, situations, and locations. Let the story write itself, even if it goes against whatever you had in mind.
In my experience, groups and level of experience also tends to influence this. e.g. experienced players might actually tend to follow the path of a story because they instinctively recognise the clues or events as signposts of the adventure. Newer players with less exposure might be more likely to go off the track in that sense. Either are fine, as they both create opportunities and unexpected moments.
Having said that, I generally try to have some kind of mental or written prep in the form of
1. What's the big, overarching direction of events? It may or may not progress in this session, depending on how the chips fall.
2. Likely sidequests/events - Given the situation from last session - what are fairly plausible interactions - good to prepare a little bit more for these - especially if you are looking towards having vtt maps ready and the like.
3. As others have suggested, lists of names of NPC's, taverns, shops, etc. at the ready for if/when things go off the rails.
Finally - I have previously found myself struggling with the sense that I am railroading when I am dropping a big hint. But it is really important to also remember that as DMs we have all the knowledge, and what makes things obvious to us, might not always be as obvious to the group - so dropping a hint with a bit less subtlety sometimes is actually a good way to give the player a nudge - and that isn't railroading unless you lock down their options or actions.