So they have to roll wild magic now? So what. Might as well change it again.
I have made it clear to the party that no one is allowed to change their character completely without asking me first. And that can sometimes work. In my first ever D&D campaign I played, one of the other players, the fighter, had grown to worship the god that my character, the cleric, worshiped. So he asked the DM, and he changed his class from fighter to paladin. My problem here is that this player I have didn't ask for permission, and didn't even provide a story reason as to why his character changed.
The title of this thread is also deceptive. I don't want to "punish" him in the traditional sense, I just want him to know that actions like that have consequences. I want this to be a learning experience. I'm not a person who can really speak up for myself. I'm a total pushover. So the way I suggested is basically the only way I know how. I feel like I should also clarify a few things:
I did have a conversation with him during the session, where he kept insisting that because other DMs let him do it, that I would let him do it as well. He also brought up the point of the character change previously in the campaign, mentioned in post #9 of this thread. I didn't want to drag on the argument too long because it was in the middle of a session.
We don't see each other outside of D&D, so I can't talk to him one-on-one that way.
He doesn't like to give out his email, and he doesn't have a way to text him since he uses a flip phone that can only make calls. To contact him, I have to go through a friend of mine that's also a friend of his.
So they have to roll wild magic now? So what. Might as well change it again.
The title of this thread is also deceptive. I don't want to "punish" him in the traditional sense, I just want him to know that actions like that have consequences. I want this to be a learning experience
Right there.
He did something Out of Game that you can't abide by at your table. Therefore the consequence should be Out of Game and between you and the player. If he can't come around to the idea that you're the DM and the one putting the time into run the game, then he shouldn't be at your table. Simple as that.
That is a real life consequence to the real life decision to not follow the rules of the game that everyone else is following.
What I don't like with this scenario is that you're looking for a way within the game to create a consequence for something that happened away from the game. It's like making a rogue roll stealth at disadvantage because the player is chewing loudly and you've asked them to stop. Taking OOC stuff into the game is a fast track to ruin the game for everyone else at the table.
At the very least, talk about it as a group. If the group agrees that this was cool, and you can live with that, then move on. If the group doesnt' agree that it was cool, then you can confront the player with that. If they can't live with it, they can leave. No one HAS to play DND with any given group. And if he doesn't like your rules as DM he can always step behind the screen...
you've doubled down on character development and even customized a quest for this guy which, i assume, is intended to pull them in to more fully. the hope being that they'll come to enjoy their character rather than treat it like a remote controlled goblin euthanizer, right? well, great! if the wild magic spills out and annoys the other characters, well, all the better to give them an excuse to interact and build rapport with the dry mechanisms guy. but maybe self examine some of the language you're using: "punish" and "behind my back" and such? it kinda makes you sound like that one petty assistant manager at the store who gives serious talkings-to about being a team player that only lower moral. be careful not to take upon yourself too much of a supervisory role or this will become work and you may begin to experience turnover in your low wage workers.
This is the interpretation I'm going for. The reason I used harsh language in the title was because this whole situation makes me a little mad. The player in question shattered the trust between DM and player. Instead of a hand-holding guide, I want to be more of a signpost, if you get my drift. If the players come to a fork in the metaphorical road, I want to point out the options and let them decide. It's my world, but it's their story.
The point of sending the party on this quest instead of having a one-on-one talk like most people are suggesting in this thread is I want him to enjoy his character. I want him to develop his character into an actual living organism, instead of the tool he treats him like now. And if he still treats his character like a "remote controlled goblin euthanizer," then so be it. That's how he wants to play his character.
maybe the NPCs begin to notice and the character starts to get a reputation. not becoming the leader over night and definitely not the center of most every quest. but definitely not a disposable husk, either. it's a thought.
I was actually thinking this. If he becomes the primary source of damage for the party, as well as the tank he is already, I was thinking that the organization that they're going up against could develop more methods to counter him. Maybe they could learn entanglement spells to keep him in place, or spells like Bane, Enfeeblement, and Bestow Curse to make him not as effective.
I was actually thinking this. If he becomes the primary source of damage for the party, as well as the tank he is already, I was thinking that the organization that they're going up against could develop more methods to counter him. Maybe they could learn entanglement spells to keep him in place, or spells like Bane, Enfeeblement, and Bestow Curse to make him not as effective.
No, just simply tell the player no. Tell him he has to go back to the original or to leave the table.
I was actually thinking this. If he becomes the primary source of damage for the party, as well as the tank he is already, I was thinking that the organization that they're going up against could develop more methods to counter him. Maybe they could learn entanglement spells to keep him in place, or spells like Bane, Enfeeblement, and Bestow Curse to make him not as effective.
No, just simply tell the player no. Tell him he has to go back to the original or to leave the table.
if they're not actively disrupting the table and the dm is already having some fun thinking up ways to bring them to baseline in a way that's not disruptive to plot... why the iron fist?
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No, just simply tell the player no. Tell him he has to go back to the original or to leave the table.
That's too final. I want to give him a second chance. The way I see it is not just black and white. He doesn't need to go just because of one infringement, one break of trust. He's not a bad person, we just don't share a playstyle. I'm more of a story guy, he's more of a mechanics guy. That's alright. We just need to find a balance that works while setting up strict boundaries about what can and cannot be done.
So they have to roll wild magic now? So what. Might as well change it again.
I have made it clear to the party that no one is allowed to change their character completely without asking me first. And that can sometimes work. In my first ever D&D campaign I played, one of the other players, the fighter, had grown to worship the god that my character, the cleric, worshiped. So he asked the DM, and he changed his class from fighter to paladin. My problem here is that this player I have didn't ask for permission, and didn't even provide a story reason as to why his character changed.
The title of this thread is also deceptive. I don't want to "punish" him in the traditional sense, I just want him to know that actions like that have consequences. I want this to be a learning experience. I'm not a person who can really speak up for myself. I'm a total pushover. So the way I suggested is basically the only way I know how. I feel like I should also clarify a few things:
I did have a conversation with him during the session, where he kept insisting that because other DMs let him do it, that I would let him do it as well. He also brought up the point of the character change previously in the campaign, mentioned in post #9 of this thread. I didn't want to drag on the argument too long because it was in the middle of a session.
We don't see each other outside of D&D, so I can't talk to him one-on-one that way.
He doesn't like to give out his email, and he doesn't have a way to text him since he uses a flip phone that can only make calls. To contact him, I have to go through a friend of mine that's also a friend of his.
Here's the problem though - you already mentioned in point #1 - "Other DMs let him do it." Fine, but if you already told them that you can't - and they did - they're already showing a lack of respect for you, your players, at the table. I agree about not stopping during the session when it happened. But after, would be ideal.
And the fact that they don't like to give out their email - is... fine. Whatever. But why don't they have a second "junk" email that they use? Not everyone does that sure. But add to the fact that he has a flip phone so can't even be texted?
This player sounds entirely too difficult to be dealing with - and as someone else said - this is going to end up going down in flames.
I'd lay down the ground rules once again - and say if you can't abide by them - you're not fit for my game.
So they have to roll wild magic now? So what. Might as well change it again.
I have made it clear to the party that no one is allowed to change their character completely without asking me first. And that can sometimes work. In my first ever D&D campaign I played, one of the other players, the fighter, had grown to worship the god that my character, the cleric, worshiped. So he asked the DM, and he changed his class from fighter to paladin. My problem here is that this player I have didn't ask for permission, and didn't even provide a story reason as to why his character changed.
The title of this thread is also deceptive. I don't want to "punish" him in the traditional sense, I just want him to know that actions like that have consequences. I want this to be a learning experience. I'm not a person who can really speak up for myself. I'm a total pushover. So the way I suggested is basically the only way I know how. I feel like I should also clarify a few things:
I did have a conversation with him during the session, where he kept insisting that because other DMs let him do it, that I would let him do it as well. He also brought up the point of the character change previously in the campaign, mentioned in post #9 of this thread. I didn't want to drag on the argument too long because it was in the middle of a session.
We don't see each other outside of D&D, so I can't talk to him one-on-one that way.
He doesn't like to give out his email, and he doesn't have a way to text him since he uses a flip phone that can only make calls. To contact him, I have to go through a friend of mine that's also a friend of his.
Okay with these 3 bullet points it is time to show him the door.
Sounds like the player is trying to introduce a different character but keep all the money and goodies their previous character had which is kind of cheeky. If they want to have a new character that's fine then just start them but at the same level of the other characters (min. xp if that's your thing). The previous character just heads off into the sunset and they start with the new one.
This is a really complicated situation, since you would normally have to talk with a problem player (and perhaps the whole party depending on how things went), but it appears that it won't be easy to due this in a situation like this one.
Honestly, as others have said, punishing the characters for something the players did is never a good idea. It would be preferable if you could tell the player who is doing these things to knock it off somehow, but that isn't easy now. You might eventually have to tell this player to leave the group, but I don't think we're near that step just yet. For now, I would just tell your players that suddenly changing everything about your character without consulting your DM is uncommon and usually not allowed.
All the actions of this player indicate that they might be problematic, but you need to remind them that Rule Zero dictates that the Dungeon Master decides what is and isn't permitted under the rules. Anyways, I would just let this person change their character without any consequences. Gently tell him and the party not to do things like this without consulting you in future, but this situation has already escalated so badly so that making it worse and elongating it is not helpful or necessary.
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I would have the talk out of game - as others have said, this is an out-of-game problem and needs out-of-game solutions.
It sounds like they thought it was ok, and you need to iterate to them that 1: It is not ok, the whole reason you have the stats is to tell the story, and you cannot change them on a whim, and 2: the biggest problem is not the change, but the fact that they did not discuss it with you.
Then you need to decide if, assuming they apologise and get the message that all changes are to be discussed with the DM, you are happy to keep the change. At level 3, the playtime is likely low, so it's not going to overly disrupt things. I would be inclined to put it down as a learning curve and move on - presumably, there's a lot of game left ahead of you!
Tell them that if they want to change their previous choices, such as classes, then this will need discussion and will not be a given thing. If they want to change stats, they will need to make a new character, and that character will need to be vetted (so it's not just bob, the otherwise identical character) and then introduced whilst the other character is outroduced. (huh. Turns out that's actually a word. Learn something new every day).
Make this the last warning. Further infractions mean you take control of their character sheet, or outright kick them from the game.
I personally have little tolerance for min-maxers so make it quite clear if it becomes obvious that this is what someone is doing that I am not the DM for them. I don't push the issue, I simply invite them to leave the table because I am not the DM who is going to create the best game for them. They should seek out a different table. If they question it, I'll make it clear why, but on the whole I tend to end up explaining that I find such players very tiresome and they often double if not triple my workload. Due to this one or both of us is going to get frustrated with the campaign or each other again in the future because their playstyle and my playstyle are at odds and are radically different. It's no one person at fault, just an incompatibility.
This may seem radical but to contextualise, I've tried a load of different approaches and they all have had the same result. I've tried the open communication method off the table. Invariably it doesn't resolve the issue if that is the player's playstyle. Likewise in my very early days as a GM I tried planning encounters specifically designed to kill the character I believed to be the problem. I've tried being explicit at the session zero and pre-session zero introductions about my playstyles. Sadly, the answer for me has just been that if I see it in play, I'll immediately now jump to saying 'look, as a DM I find your playstyle to be difficult to adapt to I'm in it for collaborative story-telling and tactical combat our playstyles might not work well together'. If the conversation from there doesn't seem like it'll be fruitful or uncover that it wasn't an attempt at min-maxing, then the conversation will usually progress to explain what and why I find some styles hard to plan for. Usually though, if your gut is telling you it's a bad character or bad player I find it's down to incompatibility and it saves a lot of hurt feelings to simple ask the player in question to leave the group.
I have made it clear to the party that no one is allowed to change their character completely without asking me first. And that can sometimes work. In my first ever D&D campaign I played, one of the other players, the fighter, had grown to worship the god that my character, the cleric, worshiped. So he asked the DM, and he changed his class from fighter to paladin. My problem here is that this player I have didn't ask for permission, and didn't even provide a story reason as to why his character changed.
The title of this thread is also deceptive. I don't want to "punish" him in the traditional sense, I just want him to know that actions like that have consequences. I want this to be a learning experience. I'm not a person who can really speak up for myself. I'm a total pushover. So the way I suggested is basically the only way I know how. I feel like I should also clarify a few things:
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Right there.
He did something Out of Game that you can't abide by at your table. Therefore the consequence should be Out of Game and between you and the player. If he can't come around to the idea that you're the DM and the one putting the time into run the game, then he shouldn't be at your table. Simple as that.
That is a real life consequence to the real life decision to not follow the rules of the game that everyone else is following.
What I don't like with this scenario is that you're looking for a way within the game to create a consequence for something that happened away from the game. It's like making a rogue roll stealth at disadvantage because the player is chewing loudly and you've asked them to stop. Taking OOC stuff into the game is a fast track to ruin the game for everyone else at the table.
At the very least, talk about it as a group. If the group agrees that this was cool, and you can live with that, then move on. If the group doesnt' agree that it was cool, then you can confront the player with that. If they can't live with it, they can leave. No one HAS to play DND with any given group. And if he doesn't like your rules as DM he can always step behind the screen...
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I was actually thinking this. If he becomes the primary source of damage for the party, as well as the tank he is already, I was thinking that the organization that they're going up against could develop more methods to counter him. Maybe they could learn entanglement spells to keep him in place, or spells like Bane, Enfeeblement, and Bestow Curse to make him not as effective.
NOCTURNE OP55N1
🛈 Meet Hanako at Embers.
No, just simply tell the player no. Tell him he has to go back to the original or to leave the table.
if they're not actively disrupting the table and the dm is already having some fun thinking up ways to bring them to baseline in a way that's not disruptive to plot... why the iron fist?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
That's too final. I want to give him a second chance. The way I see it is not just black and white. He doesn't need to go just because of one infringement, one break of trust. He's not a bad person, we just don't share a playstyle. I'm more of a story guy, he's more of a mechanics guy. That's alright. We just need to find a balance that works while setting up strict boundaries about what can and cannot be done.
NOCTURNE OP55N1
🛈 Meet Hanako at Embers.
Here's the problem though - you already mentioned in point #1 - "Other DMs let him do it." Fine, but if you already told them that you can't - and they did - they're already showing a lack of respect for you, your players, at the table. I agree about not stopping during the session when it happened. But after, would be ideal.
And the fact that they don't like to give out their email - is... fine. Whatever. But why don't they have a second "junk" email that they use? Not everyone does that sure. But add to the fact that he has a flip phone so can't even be texted?
This player sounds entirely too difficult to be dealing with - and as someone else said - this is going to end up going down in flames.
I'd lay down the ground rules once again - and say if you can't abide by them - you're not fit for my game.
Simple. As. That.
Really.
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Okay with these 3 bullet points it is time to show him the door.
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Sounds like the player is trying to introduce a different character but keep all the money and goodies their previous character had which is kind of cheeky. If they want to have a new character that's fine then just start them but at the same level of the other characters (min. xp if that's your thing). The previous character just heads off into the sunset and they start with the new one.
This is a really complicated situation, since you would normally have to talk with a problem player (and perhaps the whole party depending on how things went), but it appears that it won't be easy to due this in a situation like this one.
Honestly, as others have said, punishing the characters for something the players did is never a good idea. It would be preferable if you could tell the player who is doing these things to knock it off somehow, but that isn't easy now. You might eventually have to tell this player to leave the group, but I don't think we're near that step just yet. For now, I would just tell your players that suddenly changing everything about your character without consulting your DM is uncommon and usually not allowed.
All the actions of this player indicate that they might be problematic, but you need to remind them that Rule Zero dictates that the Dungeon Master decides what is and isn't permitted under the rules. Anyways, I would just let this person change their character without any consequences. Gently tell him and the party not to do things like this without consulting you in future, but this situation has already escalated so badly so that making it worse and elongating it is not helpful or necessary.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I thought in AL you can change classes up to level 5, but stats had to remain the same. Am I mistaken?
I would have the talk out of game - as others have said, this is an out-of-game problem and needs out-of-game solutions.
It sounds like they thought it was ok, and you need to iterate to them that 1: It is not ok, the whole reason you have the stats is to tell the story, and you cannot change them on a whim, and 2: the biggest problem is not the change, but the fact that they did not discuss it with you.
Then you need to decide if, assuming they apologise and get the message that all changes are to be discussed with the DM, you are happy to keep the change. At level 3, the playtime is likely low, so it's not going to overly disrupt things. I would be inclined to put it down as a learning curve and move on - presumably, there's a lot of game left ahead of you!
Tell them that if they want to change their previous choices, such as classes, then this will need discussion and will not be a given thing. If they want to change stats, they will need to make a new character, and that character will need to be vetted (so it's not just bob, the otherwise identical character) and then introduced whilst the other character is outroduced. (huh. Turns out that's actually a word. Learn something new every day).
Make this the last warning. Further infractions mean you take control of their character sheet, or outright kick them from the game.
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I personally have little tolerance for min-maxers so make it quite clear if it becomes obvious that this is what someone is doing that I am not the DM for them. I don't push the issue, I simply invite them to leave the table because I am not the DM who is going to create the best game for them. They should seek out a different table. If they question it, I'll make it clear why, but on the whole I tend to end up explaining that I find such players very tiresome and they often double if not triple my workload. Due to this one or both of us is going to get frustrated with the campaign or each other again in the future because their playstyle and my playstyle are at odds and are radically different. It's no one person at fault, just an incompatibility.
This may seem radical but to contextualise, I've tried a load of different approaches and they all have had the same result. I've tried the open communication method off the table. Invariably it doesn't resolve the issue if that is the player's playstyle. Likewise in my very early days as a GM I tried planning encounters specifically designed to kill the character I believed to be the problem. I've tried being explicit at the session zero and pre-session zero introductions about my playstyles. Sadly, the answer for me has just been that if I see it in play, I'll immediately now jump to saying 'look, as a DM I find your playstyle to be difficult to adapt to I'm in it for collaborative story-telling and tactical combat our playstyles might not work well together'. If the conversation from there doesn't seem like it'll be fruitful or uncover that it wasn't an attempt at min-maxing, then the conversation will usually progress to explain what and why I find some styles hard to plan for. Usually though, if your gut is telling you it's a bad character or bad player I find it's down to incompatibility and it saves a lot of hurt feelings to simple ask the player in question to leave the group.
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