At which level would this be, though? I don't think I've ever seen that.
100 damage rounds (from a single PC) are fairly high level, but at pretty much every level PCs are glass cannons, and 100 damage in a round from multiple PCs is routine by tier 2.
My view: Having PC's fight HP sponges makes combat a dreary, dull slog through endless marshes of despair and desillusion. Bad idea.
There's a long distance between "not a PC build" and "HP sponge".
A coinflip difficulty fight (i.e. the PCs have a 50% chance of losing) between PC builds averages about two rounds.
Most people's preference for a big fight is 3-5 rounds, with the PCs favored to win. That means you need monsters with lower damage (so they won't kill the PCs in two rounds) and higher hit points (so they won't die in two rounds).
Whether it's appropriate for you as the DM to give your monsters or enemy NPC additional hit points really depends on the make-up of the party. It makes sense, IMO, to give a boss monster more hp if you know that the PCs have a Paladin or a someone with Sharpshooter feat in the party, for instance.
Giving class levels to an NPC or Monster does not preclude adding more hp on that creature for the sake of encounter balance. The main questions to ask when adding class levels to an NPC/Monster are: 1) Does this make the augmented creature too cumbersome to run in combat? and 2) Does this make the creature significantly tougher so that you need to rebalance the encounter in other ways?
100 damage rounds (from a single PC) are fairly high level, but at pretty much every level PCs are glass cannons, and 100 damage in a round from multiple PCs is routine by tier 2.
There's a long distance between "not a PC build" and "HP sponge".
A coinflip difficulty fight (i.e. the PCs have a 50% chance of losing) between PC builds averages about two rounds.
Most people's preference for a big fight is 3-5 rounds, with the PCs favored to win. That means you need monsters with lower damage (so they won't kill the PCs in two rounds) and higher hit points (so they won't die in two rounds).
But that's not really what I'm saying, though. If the pc's are doing 100's of points of damage, each, each round, then you - very, very literally - need a boss that's an HP sponge.
But there are several questions: What level, how many PC's, and what else is going on on the map? If my three PC's do around 20 damage each a round, and the boss has 80 HP, but you can't do the 20 damage to her because she's behind a screen of fanatical followers, and she has Shield, and Silvery Barbs, and Mirror Image, and Blur, and her friend the cleric cast Heroism on her (despite the fact the the PC's are the heroes - how ironic) - then, frankly, I do not need her to be a monster, she's perfectly fine being a sorcerer.
Also, I'm sorry, but monster are plain boring. I mean I can go out of my way to make a manticore an exciting character with a sordid background, motivations dreams and ambitions - but those things just really work a lot better for a sorcerer. Or other NPC.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
But that's not really what I'm saying, though. If the pc's are doing 100's of points of damage, each, each round, then you - very, very literally - need a boss that's an HP sponge
The PCs, as a group, will probably do upwards of 100 damage in round 1, and then declining as resources get expended; something like (total party levels)*8-10 hit points will probably get you your 3 round duration encounter (so for 4 PCs at level 6, that's 192-240 hp). That's for an enemy who's inclined to stick around and slug it out; monsters that are inclined to hit and run or otherwise be hard to actually engage should have fewer hit points, though probably not significantly reduced offense.
But that's not really what I'm saying, though. If the pc's are doing 100's of points of damage, each, each round, then you - very, very literally - need a boss that's an HP sponge
The PCs, as a group, will probably do upwards of 100 damage in round 1, and then declining as resources get expended; something like (total party levels)*8-10 hit points will probably get you your 3 round duration encounter (so for 4 PCs at level 6, that's 192-240 hp). That's for an enemy who's inclined to stick around and slug it out; monsters that are inclined to hit and run or otherwise be hard to actually engage should have fewer hit points, though probably not significantly reduced offense.
the problem with this equation, is that it changes everytimes the players gets a power boost... on level 3, thanks to archetypes, on level 5 thanks to extra attacks and the boost to cantrips not to mention first level 3 spells which are uber powerfull. after that, once they reach level 9 spells gets so powerfull they can literally one shot monsters. not to miss the fabled banishment spell at level 7. that's called power creep, meaning power is exponentially making characters stronger then they should be. that's why CR is useless most of the time.
the problem with HP sponges is that the fight gets to be the same thing every rounds. you don't want that to happen... players having to fight the same fight every rounds is something that bores people down. that's also why interactive fights are better... aka we do have an hp sponge boss, but hittign the power generators of the room allows you to power down the boss. so each round now the players have to hit a different switch every rounds to accomplish something. or have a big monster boss that has numerous parts. that can all be attacked separately. thats making the fight more interesting then just the hp sponge. because otherwise you are just making a fight longer then it needs to be.
as for players dealing more then a 100hp each rounds... thats mostly because players kjeeps their biggest spells and their bigest attack patterns for bosses... aka a druid will not use all of its wildshape if he knows he's not getting a short rest soon. warlocks not using spells to keep some in case of problems. barbarians not raging because they wanna make sure they get it if a boss fight happen. if you go into a boss fight too early, those players will not feel the need to play their biggest thing and will simply outpower the boss when they see it. but players who don't use their abilities and hit numerous enemies along the way and traps wilting their lives down, will arriveat the boss and realise quite fast that they are not prepared. and will start thinking about using said big abilities to either do the right thing and save themselves, or retreat and let the boss prepare for them, in all cases they are gonna lose something. these are the decision you want players to think about. you don't want them to just keep their big stuff for the bosses... thats not a video game and you shouldn't play video games with htem. make the world moreliving by giving them time constraint or ressource management problems. without any of these two you are asking players to just bomb nuke your boss to kingdom come !
whatever path you choose to be following, eithe rbe an hp sponge boss with interactive elements or just witled down their ressources, will make things much more enjoyable then just pure beat for 10 rounds until its life goes down. there is also the fact that players are easy destroying if they didn't get their characters up in stats like they should. aka the two paladins i have in my group who have both boosted inteligence and wisdom instead of charisma and strength. and yes i told them, and yes they prefer to play it like that. those players are definitely not gonna survive 10 rounds against your hp boss. 2-3 perhaps, but 10... definitely not. thats the more reason to avoid the hp sponge. because the longer the fight goes, the harder its gonna be on the players who are att he beginning of the fight in a downward spiral, their ressources going away as round progresses...
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100 damage rounds (from a single PC) are fairly high level, but at pretty much every level PCs are glass cannons, and 100 damage in a round from multiple PCs is routine by tier 2.
There's a long distance between "not a PC build" and "HP sponge".
A coinflip difficulty fight (i.e. the PCs have a 50% chance of losing) between PC builds averages about two rounds.
Most people's preference for a big fight is 3-5 rounds, with the PCs favored to win. That means you need monsters with lower damage (so they won't kill the PCs in two rounds) and higher hit points (so they won't die in two rounds).
But that's not really what I'm saying, though. If the pc's are doing 100's of points of damage, each, each round, then you - very, very literally - need a boss that's an HP sponge.
But there are several questions: What level, how many PC's, and what else is going on on the map? If my three PC's do around 20 damage each a round, and the boss has 80 HP, but you can't do the 20 damage to her because she's behind a screen of fanatical followers, and she has Shield, and Silvery Barbs, and Mirror Image, and Blur, and her friend the cleric cast Heroism on her (despite the fact the the PC's are the heroes - how ironic) - then, frankly, I do not need her to be a monster, she's perfectly fine being a sorcerer.
Also, I'm sorry, but monster are plain boring. I mean I can go out of my way to make a manticore an exciting character with a sordid background, motivations dreams and ambitions - but those things just really work a lot better for a sorcerer. Or other NPC.
except the players will forget about the minions who only have a mesely +3 attack power and will probably need a 17+ on the dice to hit, then your sorcerer who can literally two shot them. now your sorcerer suddently has to without 5 players attacking it relentlessly. as they focus their fire and ignore the minions. unless you literally block the passage by having so many minions in the room that they cannot get to the boss... that sorceress, won't be living to tell the tale. she'll be gone in the first round. unless the players are very unlucky which can happen. i give you that. as for her defensive spells...
shield, silvery barb both are reactions, she got only 1 of those per round. so she cannot do both at the same time. meaning that if she uses shiled, she can't use silvery barb for the rest of the round. basically until it gets back to her. her stats also means to be important. if she has 20 dex... it means with mage armor, she is at 18. if you are adding shield she's at 23... thats still very much reachable by any players with a 15+ on the dice at level 5 and maxed stats. without that shield she's down to 18. which is reachable by anyone with a 10+ on the dice. again players at level 5, can easily fight that and attacker her... mirror image and blur helps... sure... mirror image against level 5 players will probably be down to 1 image after the fighter or barbarian attack it twice. meaning the next warlock hitting her or any other attack by anyone really. is gonna be destroying that mirror image. meaning the remaining 3 players gets free reings over her. in the same round. again, do you think she'll survive first round still ? blur helps... but at this point, its concentration... if anyone hits her, there is a chance it gets destroyed right away. even more if its a rogue with sneak attack or a paladin with smites on. let alone be a human variant paladin with great weapon fighting... again, really depends on your players builds. but the problem remains that all 4 defensive mechanism can be avoided easily by level 5 players. not to mention by level 5, any sorcerer or caster can just outright cast dispel magic to get rid of blur or any other spells she has to defend herself.
now you got 5 players who just nuked, with the right numbers, your sorceress... no minions were ever hit, they were simply ignored. sure the players lost life, sure they lost to some hits, but its never gonna be anything they can't manage while putting pressure on that sorceress will be more important because if she gets to fire, they will be done for.
the argument for players is always... AC versus NOT getting hit. with AC and HP i have chances of dieing... while not getting hit makes sure i am still alive at the end of the battle. killing the biggest damage dealer offers a solution to the second condition. not getting hit. while the minions have to bypass your AC. their chances of hitting you is definitely much less then the sorceress. so the sorceress becomes the number 1 priority.
again all of this is just assumptions, but thats a very good assumption that your players will ignore the minions and hit boss. that sorceress with everything you just told me, will only survive if the enemies aren't level 5. if they are, that sorceress will die in first or second round. you know your group, so you know how they play, so plan for that, thats what i was saying in the beginning, you can do fights based on knowledge of your players, but you can't on knowledge of a system that uses arbitrary numbers to make a case.
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its not that it can't be done... it is with the fact that player characters don't have much Hit points and player charcaters can pretty much dish out 100 points of damage in a single round.
if you count those things, then yes... usinga PC as a monster is a bad idea.
At which level would this be, though? I don't think I've ever seen that.
My view: Having PC's fight HP sponges makes combat a dreary, dull slog through endless marshes of despair and desillusion. Bad idea.
And I'm not trying to be a jerk, here - I'm trying to show that either argument works for different contexts, and I've never, ever seen a 5e character above level ... 7, maybe 8.
then you have never completed any adventures or campaigns. my players in my two groups are at their 3rd campaigns from level 1 to 20.
if you ever played campaigns of premade adventures, they all grants you from level 1 to about 15. i really hope you one day experience the thrill of high level fighting which is much much more brutal then the first two tiers of play.
as for which level players do 100+ point of damage... at level 13... 6 players against a beholder 1 shotted him because paladin was sucessfull with hypnotic pattern. which led all players to take the full minute to prepare their biggest spells against the beholder... beholder has 180 hit point average which i gave since he wasn't a boss fight.
paladin hit, triggering everyone else attacks that were all readied... - wizard cast desintegrate upcast to level 7 on beholder... hitting for about 80 points... - druid cast his own desintegrate, which is blight, upcast from 4 to 7 for about 80 points of damage. - cleric cast blight as well, upcast from 4 to 7, thats another 80 point of damage on average. - rogue sneak attack, creature surprised with advantage gets a crit... thats about 100+ damage right there... he rolled really high i will say.
i don't really remember the other combattants... oh yeah the other druid, right there was two. so thats blight from her as well, upcast too. and paladin hitting with great weapon master, the feat as well and full on smite as he hit...
they all totalled about 400 points of damage, they massively outright killed the beholder in 1 single round and the beholder couldn'T do a thing about it. all that cause i changed the cone from paladin to the wizard and cleric.
you'll say that this is at level 13... but heres a rundown of level 5 for you... paladin hits with smites and great weapon master deals about 30 damage points on his own. druid at level 5 both have moonbeams that can be upcasted which cannot really be avoided, or call lightning or stuff of the sort. meaning they do hit for about 20-30 damage a round too. the cleric has guiding bolt which can be upcast to level 3 for the same amount of damage. the wizard has a ton of spells that can be upcasted to make that kind of damage too. the rogue hitself with sneak attack does the same amount of damage out of a shortsword.
those numbers are basically just regular stuff, not even built for it. if they are built to maximise damage those numbers can go up by a lot depending on the build. calculated for 6 players, we're well over 100 damage a round.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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then you have never completed any adventures or campaigns.
Please don't do that. You have no idea who I am, what I have or haven't done - you don't know anything about me that I haven't told you, and I haven't told you a single thing.
Here's one though: I don't ever touch official campaigns. Also, I find high level play to be intensely boring.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
its not that it can't be done... it is with the fact that player characters don't have much Hit points and player charcaters can pretty much dish out 100 points of damage in a single round.
if you count those things, then yes... usinga PC as a monster is a bad idea.
At which level would this be, though? I don't think I've ever seen that.
then you have never completed any adventures or campaigns. my players in my two groups are at their 3rd campaigns from level 1 to 20.
if you ever played campaigns of premade adventures, they all grants you from level 1 to about 15. i really hope you one day experience the thrill of high level fighting which is much much more brutal then the first two tiers of play.
You are the one who said you never seen any player do above 100+ damage. the only reason for one to not have ever seen that was to have never played high level campaigns. i'm not assuming to know you, nor did i say anything about that. i only assumed you have never played a campaign to high level before. but as i mentionned... even level 5 players can dish out more then 100+ hit points of damage in 1 single round of combat so it might just be that you never realised it before. whatever the reason... even at level 5 which i gave explications of. can dish out more then any opponents right out of the gates.
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You are the one who said you never seen any player do above 100+ damage. the only reason for one to not have ever seen that was to have never played high level campaigns. i'm not assuming to know you, nor did i say anything about that. i only assumed you have never played a campaign to high level before. but as i mentionned... even level 5 players can dish out more then 100+ hit points of damage in 1 single round of combat so it might just be that you never realised it before. whatever the reason... even at level 5 which i gave explications of. can dish out more then any opponents right out of the gates.
I've stated - plainly - that I yet to play much beyond level 8 or 9 or so. You said nothing about levels, you said I've never played an adventure or campaign to completion.
That's inane! You have absolutely no clue what so ever.
I've played literally dozens upon dozens of adventures and campaigns to completion. Basically all of them have been homebrew, and unsurprisingly, not been to levels much above 8 or 9 - although, to be fair, back in 3.5 we rutinely reached ... eh, maybe 11 to 14. But in 5e, I've played no higher than level 8.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
all of what you just said seems contradicting to me... and as i said... 5e campaigns goes all the way up to 15. i wonder how your DM simply downplayed every campaigns he used in 5E for you to always be level 8-9... but hey, to each its own... i fairly think level 9 is the best level to play in.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Official ones do. Unofficial campaigns can end wherever!
Regarding the question of how to build the boss fight, I thoroughly recommend giving the boss a goal other than killing the PCs. Not only does this relax a little of the "do I or don't I kill their character?", but it also means that both sides can lose, which means that the boss can recurr!
EG:
Basic (boring) premise: "Ah, heroes, you have entered the circular chamber of automatic locking! Boss music is playing - now we fight to the death!". If the PCs win, the boss dies. If the boss wins, the PCs die. In either case, this arc of story ends.
More Interesting premise: "No! The heroes have made it to my inner sanctum! Minions, keep them from me while I finish the ritual!". The BBEG is in a shield powered by obelisks which are defended by minions, and is opening a portal to steal everyone's left sock. The party needs to get past the minions, deactivate the obelisks (break 'em, remove a crystal, or dispel magic), and then fight the BBEG. The BBEG has one goal - to complete the ritual. If the obelisks are broken, the BBEG flips to the goal of "Escape". If the BBEG wins, the world awakens with one cold foot on the morrow. If neither win, then the BBEG escapes. If the PCs win, everyone's toes stay toasty and the BBEG is captured or killed, to never steal a stocking again.
I have a boss in my game who will have a means to escape easily, and can do it as a legendary action. This ability is granted by somethign they carry, allowing the players to try and work out the way to fight them - because after a character has their turn, they can just teleport to a different plane.
Regarding the question in the title of "When" you should have the fight - I recommend stalling until near the start of the session, and put some filler in behind it so that the party can continue and stop whenever. It seems like a cool climax to the session to fight the BBEG, but the last thing you want is the epic battle being interrupted with "I need to leave in half an hour, just so everyone knows", and people packing up as you describe their final moments, because they killed her and need to catch the bus.
all of what you just said seems contradicting to me... and as i said... 5e campaigns goes all the way up to 15. i wonder how your DM simply downplayed every campaigns he used in 5E for you to always be level 8-9... but hey, to each its own... i fairly think level 9 is the best level to play in.
There's no great mystery. Level slowly, never play published campaigns.
I'll add, for the sake of completeness, at the moment our Discord group are playing tomb of annihilation. Currently, we're level 5, I think.
I doubt we'll finish it. At a guess, we'll lose interest around level .. 8 or 9 maybe.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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100 damage rounds (from a single PC) are fairly high level, but at pretty much every level PCs are glass cannons, and 100 damage in a round from multiple PCs is routine by tier 2.
There's a long distance between "not a PC build" and "HP sponge".
A coinflip difficulty fight (i.e. the PCs have a 50% chance of losing) between PC builds averages about two rounds.
Most people's preference for a big fight is 3-5 rounds, with the PCs favored to win. That means you need monsters with lower damage (so they won't kill the PCs in two rounds) and higher hit points (so they won't die in two rounds).
Whether it's appropriate for you as the DM to give your monsters or enemy NPC additional hit points really depends on the make-up of the party. It makes sense, IMO, to give a boss monster more hp if you know that the PCs have a Paladin or a someone with Sharpshooter feat in the party, for instance.
Giving class levels to an NPC or Monster does not preclude adding more hp on that creature for the sake of encounter balance. The main questions to ask when adding class levels to an NPC/Monster are: 1) Does this make the augmented creature too cumbersome to run in combat? and 2) Does this make the creature significantly tougher so that you need to rebalance the encounter in other ways?
But that's not really what I'm saying, though. If the pc's are doing 100's of points of damage, each, each round, then you - very, very literally - need a boss that's an HP sponge.
But there are several questions: What level, how many PC's, and what else is going on on the map? If my three PC's do around 20 damage each a round, and the boss has 80 HP, but you can't do the 20 damage to her because she's behind a screen of fanatical followers, and she has Shield, and Silvery Barbs, and Mirror Image, and Blur, and her friend the cleric cast Heroism on her (despite the fact the the PC's are the heroes - how ironic) - then, frankly, I do not need her to be a monster, she's perfectly fine being a sorcerer.
Also, I'm sorry, but monster are plain boring. I mean I can go out of my way to make a manticore an exciting character with a sordid background, motivations dreams and ambitions - but those things just really work a lot better for a sorcerer. Or other NPC.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The PCs, as a group, will probably do upwards of 100 damage in round 1, and then declining as resources get expended; something like (total party levels)*8-10 hit points will probably get you your 3 round duration encounter (so for 4 PCs at level 6, that's 192-240 hp). That's for an enemy who's inclined to stick around and slug it out; monsters that are inclined to hit and run or otherwise be hard to actually engage should have fewer hit points, though probably not significantly reduced offense.
the problem with this equation, is that it changes everytimes the players gets a power boost...
on level 3, thanks to archetypes, on level 5 thanks to extra attacks and the boost to cantrips not to mention first level 3 spells which are uber powerfull.
after that, once they reach level 9 spells gets so powerfull they can literally one shot monsters. not to miss the fabled banishment spell at level 7.
that's called power creep, meaning power is exponentially making characters stronger then they should be. that's why CR is useless most of the time.
the problem with HP sponges is that the fight gets to be the same thing every rounds. you don't want that to happen... players having to fight the same fight every rounds is something that bores people down. that's also why interactive fights are better... aka we do have an hp sponge boss, but hittign the power generators of the room allows you to power down the boss. so each round now the players have to hit a different switch every rounds to accomplish something. or have a big monster boss that has numerous parts. that can all be attacked separately. thats making the fight more interesting then just the hp sponge. because otherwise you are just making a fight longer then it needs to be.
as for players dealing more then a 100hp each rounds...
thats mostly because players kjeeps their biggest spells and their bigest attack patterns for bosses...
aka a druid will not use all of its wildshape if he knows he's not getting a short rest soon. warlocks not using spells to keep some in case of problems. barbarians not raging because they wanna make sure they get it if a boss fight happen. if you go into a boss fight too early, those players will not feel the need to play their biggest thing and will simply outpower the boss when they see it. but players who don't use their abilities and hit numerous enemies along the way and traps wilting their lives down, will arriveat the boss and realise quite fast that they are not prepared. and will start thinking about using said big abilities to either do the right thing and save themselves, or retreat and let the boss prepare for them, in all cases they are gonna lose something. these are the decision you want players to think about. you don't want them to just keep their big stuff for the bosses... thats not a video game and you shouldn't play video games with htem. make the world moreliving by giving them time constraint or ressource management problems. without any of these two you are asking players to just bomb nuke your boss to kingdom come !
whatever path you choose to be following, eithe rbe an hp sponge boss with interactive elements or just witled down their ressources, will make things much more enjoyable then just pure beat for 10 rounds until its life goes down. there is also the fact that players are easy destroying if they didn't get their characters up in stats like they should. aka the two paladins i have in my group who have both boosted inteligence and wisdom instead of charisma and strength. and yes i told them, and yes they prefer to play it like that. those players are definitely not gonna survive 10 rounds against your hp boss. 2-3 perhaps, but 10... definitely not. thats the more reason to avoid the hp sponge. because the longer the fight goes, the harder its gonna be on the players who are att he beginning of the fight in a downward spiral, their ressources going away as round progresses...
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except the players will forget about the minions who only have a mesely +3 attack power and will probably need a 17+ on the dice to hit, then your sorcerer who can literally two shot them. now your sorcerer suddently has to without 5 players attacking it relentlessly. as they focus their fire and ignore the minions. unless you literally block the passage by having so many minions in the room that they cannot get to the boss... that sorceress, won't be living to tell the tale. she'll be gone in the first round. unless the players are very unlucky which can happen. i give you that. as for her defensive spells...
shield, silvery barb both are reactions, she got only 1 of those per round. so she cannot do both at the same time. meaning that if she uses shiled, she can't use silvery barb for the rest of the round. basically until it gets back to her. her stats also means to be important. if she has 20 dex... it means with mage armor, she is at 18. if you are adding shield she's at 23... thats still very much reachable by any players with a 15+ on the dice at level 5 and maxed stats. without that shield she's down to 18. which is reachable by anyone with a 10+ on the dice. again players at level 5, can easily fight that and attacker her... mirror image and blur helps... sure... mirror image against level 5 players will probably be down to 1 image after the fighter or barbarian attack it twice. meaning the next warlock hitting her or any other attack by anyone really. is gonna be destroying that mirror image. meaning the remaining 3 players gets free reings over her. in the same round. again, do you think she'll survive first round still ? blur helps... but at this point, its concentration... if anyone hits her, there is a chance it gets destroyed right away. even more if its a rogue with sneak attack or a paladin with smites on. let alone be a human variant paladin with great weapon fighting... again, really depends on your players builds. but the problem remains that all 4 defensive mechanism can be avoided easily by level 5 players. not to mention by level 5, any sorcerer or caster can just outright cast dispel magic to get rid of blur or any other spells she has to defend herself.
now you got 5 players who just nuked, with the right numbers, your sorceress... no minions were ever hit, they were simply ignored. sure the players lost life, sure they lost to some hits, but its never gonna be anything they can't manage while putting pressure on that sorceress will be more important because if she gets to fire, they will be done for.
the argument for players is always... AC versus NOT getting hit.
with AC and HP i have chances of dieing... while not getting hit makes sure i am still alive at the end of the battle.
killing the biggest damage dealer offers a solution to the second condition. not getting hit. while the minions have to bypass your AC. their chances of hitting you is definitely much less then the sorceress. so the sorceress becomes the number 1 priority.
again all of this is just assumptions, but thats a very good assumption that your players will ignore the minions and hit boss. that sorceress with everything you just told me, will only survive if the enemies aren't level 5. if they are, that sorceress will die in first or second round. you know your group, so you know how they play, so plan for that, thats what i was saying in the beginning, you can do fights based on knowledge of your players, but you can't on knowledge of a system that uses arbitrary numbers to make a case.
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then you have never completed any adventures or campaigns.
my players in my two groups are at their 3rd campaigns from level 1 to 20.
if you ever played campaigns of premade adventures, they all grants you from level 1 to about 15.
i really hope you one day experience the thrill of high level fighting which is much much more brutal then the first two tiers of play.
as for which level players do 100+ point of damage...
at level 13... 6 players against a beholder 1 shotted him because paladin was sucessfull with hypnotic pattern. which led all players to take the full minute to prepare their biggest spells against the beholder... beholder has 180 hit point average which i gave since he wasn't a boss fight.
paladin hit, triggering everyone else attacks that were all readied...
- wizard cast desintegrate upcast to level 7 on beholder... hitting for about 80 points...
- druid cast his own desintegrate, which is blight, upcast from 4 to 7 for about 80 points of damage.
- cleric cast blight as well, upcast from 4 to 7, thats another 80 point of damage on average.
- rogue sneak attack, creature surprised with advantage gets a crit... thats about 100+ damage right there... he rolled really high i will say.
i don't really remember the other combattants... oh yeah the other druid, right there was two. so thats blight from her as well, upcast too.
and paladin hitting with great weapon master, the feat as well and full on smite as he hit...
they all totalled about 400 points of damage, they massively outright killed the beholder in 1 single round and the beholder couldn'T do a thing about it. all that cause i changed the cone from paladin to the wizard and cleric.
you'll say that this is at level 13...
but heres a rundown of level 5 for you...
paladin hits with smites and great weapon master deals about 30 damage points on his own.
druid at level 5 both have moonbeams that can be upcasted which cannot really be avoided, or call lightning or stuff of the sort. meaning they do hit for about 20-30 damage a round too.
the cleric has guiding bolt which can be upcast to level 3 for the same amount of damage.
the wizard has a ton of spells that can be upcasted to make that kind of damage too.
the rogue hitself with sneak attack does the same amount of damage out of a shortsword.
those numbers are basically just regular stuff, not even built for it. if they are built to maximise damage those numbers can go up by a lot depending on the build. calculated for 6 players, we're well over 100 damage a round.
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Please don't do that. You have no idea who I am, what I have or haven't done - you don't know anything about me that I haven't told you, and I haven't told you a single thing.
Here's one though: I don't ever touch official campaigns. Also, I find high level play to be intensely boring.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You are the one who said you never seen any player do above 100+ damage. the only reason for one to not have ever seen that was to have never played high level campaigns.
i'm not assuming to know you, nor did i say anything about that. i only assumed you have never played a campaign to high level before. but as i mentionned... even level 5 players can dish out more then 100+ hit points of damage in 1 single round of combat so it might just be that you never realised it before. whatever the reason... even at level 5 which i gave explications of. can dish out more then any opponents right out of the gates.
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I've stated - plainly - that I yet to play much beyond level 8 or 9 or so. You said nothing about levels, you said I've never played an adventure or campaign to completion.
That's inane! You have absolutely no clue what so ever.
I've played literally dozens upon dozens of adventures and campaigns to completion. Basically all of them have been homebrew, and unsurprisingly, not been to levels much above 8 or 9 - although, to be fair, back in 3.5 we rutinely reached ... eh, maybe 11 to 14. But in 5e, I've played no higher than level 8.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
all of what you just said seems contradicting to me...
and as i said... 5e campaigns goes all the way up to 15. i wonder how your DM simply downplayed every campaigns he used in 5E for you to always be level 8-9... but hey, to each its own... i fairly think level 9 is the best level to play in.
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Official ones do. Unofficial campaigns can end wherever!
Regarding the question of how to build the boss fight, I thoroughly recommend giving the boss a goal other than killing the PCs. Not only does this relax a little of the "do I or don't I kill their character?", but it also means that both sides can lose, which means that the boss can recurr!
EG:
Basic (boring) premise: "Ah, heroes, you have entered the circular chamber of automatic locking! Boss music is playing - now we fight to the death!". If the PCs win, the boss dies. If the boss wins, the PCs die. In either case, this arc of story ends.
More Interesting premise: "No! The heroes have made it to my inner sanctum! Minions, keep them from me while I finish the ritual!". The BBEG is in a shield powered by obelisks which are defended by minions, and is opening a portal to steal everyone's left sock. The party needs to get past the minions, deactivate the obelisks (break 'em, remove a crystal, or dispel magic), and then fight the BBEG. The BBEG has one goal - to complete the ritual. If the obelisks are broken, the BBEG flips to the goal of "Escape". If the BBEG wins, the world awakens with one cold foot on the morrow. If neither win, then the BBEG escapes. If the PCs win, everyone's toes stay toasty and the BBEG is captured or killed, to never steal a stocking again.
I have a boss in my game who will have a means to escape easily, and can do it as a legendary action. This ability is granted by somethign they carry, allowing the players to try and work out the way to fight them - because after a character has their turn, they can just teleport to a different plane.
Regarding the question in the title of "When" you should have the fight - I recommend stalling until near the start of the session, and put some filler in behind it so that the party can continue and stop whenever. It seems like a cool climax to the session to fight the BBEG, but the last thing you want is the epic battle being interrupted with "I need to leave in half an hour, just so everyone knows", and people packing up as you describe their final moments, because they killed her and need to catch the bus.
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Keep the players guessing.
From videogames we expect to have a few minion battles, then maybe a couple of lieutenant battles, then a boss battle. Then repeat.
So, have the boss fight the PCs at the begining of a dungeon sometimes.
Ocasionally have the boss just missing. The PCs get to the final room, it's a grand atmospheric place for a fight, and there is… no-one there.
There's no great mystery. Level slowly, never play published campaigns.
I'll add, for the sake of completeness, at the moment our Discord group are playing tomb of annihilation. Currently, we're level 5, I think.
I doubt we'll finish it. At a guess, we'll lose interest around level .. 8 or 9 maybe.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.