New DM - ran second night of Dragon of Ice Spear campaign. We have done 3 of the quests in the campaign as well as time in a bar doing gambling and drinking games. They loved the games and we laughed considerably. What I planned for 45 minutes took close to 90.
Anyway - my problem is they want to negotiate for everything and it is dragging the quests to a standstill. 50 gp is the payment for completing a quest, but they want 70, and won't accept 50 - period. I have raised the amount some, but every encounter with a NPC they want more and more. We did dwarven excavation quest from Ice Spear. I had to offer 75 gp each to entice them, and then they wouldn't go into the temple unless guaranteed additional gold and any riches found in the temple. Game play basically stopped as they simple were not going in without more payment. Their view - why should I put myself in danger?
How do you move the game along when the players don't want to do the quests for the fees/amounts listed? How do you hook them? My thought for the next session is to have a thief steal all they coins at night, then they won't have any funds and must take a job.
If adventurers are only in it for the money, they'll soon discover they have more money than they need and will quit adventuring. Money is useful as a way to encourage them to go on one adventure over a different one, but they would likely end up going out adventuring anyway.
If a potential customer keeps trying to haggle after the shop keeper tells them the price is final, the shop keeper will just tell them to get out, because it's a store, not a charity, and their business isn't worth the hastle.
Or, you could sideline roleplay for shopping, have the player roll a Persuasion Check against a DC for the Store... with the store having bonuses depending on how little they're likely to negotiate... and depending on the player's roll, you just tell them what the best price they can get after haggling is, and the players decide to either pay it, on not engage in business.
Example: So if something has a base price of 100gp, and the store has it marked at 125gp, and the players want to haggle, they roll a Persuasion Check, and if they fail to meet the DC, the item has the shopkeeper's marked price, if the party matches the DC, they can get it for a 10% discount (112gp 5sp). If the party exceeds the DC by 5, they get it for the base price (100gp), and if they exceed the DC by 10, they get a 5% discount off of the base price (95gp).
Example: So if something has a base price of 100gp, and the store has it marked at 125gp, and the players want to haggle, they roll a Persuasion Check, and if they fail to meet the DC, the item has the shopkeeper's marked price, if the party matches the DC, they can get it for a 10% discount (112gp 5sp). If the party exceeds the DC by 5, they get it for the base price (100gp), and if they exceed the DC by 10, they get a 5% discount off of the base price (95gp).
Add to that, within 5 of the DC, get it for list price. Miss by more than 5 and the shopkeeper is offended and won't do business with you.
Because they're adventurers. The PCs are obligated to play characters that are, or can be, motivated to go on quests or adventures without extended wooing. This is a requirement of the game. They're certainly free to turn down a particular hook, or even play hardball when negotiating, but if they're just being intransigent and refusing anything then those characters should retire from the adventuring life and find safer occupations. The players can then generate new characters that want to go on adventures.
Talk to your players. Tell them that it is slowing down the game, and talk about what story they are trying to make with these characters so that you can better present situations in ways that will be enticing to them without giving away to much gold/items. Is it fame they want? Play up the way the townspeople react to their adventures. If it's just the money? If they can just deal with these people and their poor offers for long enough - they may get enough power to raid a dragon's hoard. That is the end goal, after all. The dragon. Everyone else also has good ideas, you should pick a few to try. Make sure to talk to your players about any changes though. If all your NPCs have been relative pushovers up to this point, they may get upset if you change this suddenly without warning. Likewise with any other changes. It's their game to, make sure to involve them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
Don't know the module, but is there time sensitive stuff involved? Dragon gonna attack the town unless situation X is resolved? I'd look for a way for their greed to complicate their lives and cost them for being overly greedy. Enemy sacks nearby village maybe because the "heroes" (said with a derisive snort, by the speaker) were too busy trying to extort the townspeople.
Maybe on their next quest-giver visit, have the person openly challenge them on it. "Oh, the local coin grubbers are here! Well I hope they aren't expecting THIS merchant to kiss their jeweled arses and start showering them with gold I don't have. Got me work I need done and got me a budget for it. Take it or leave it!" Also have the person send them packing, NO negotiation if/when they start trying to haggle. If they press, have the person get angry and forcibly chase them from his property. Let them know THAT line is now closed and they won't be able to see/attain the rewards that were intended. If they ask why, explain their greedy nature has earned them a bad reputation around town. Folks are looking for pretty much anyone BUT the group to help them out. Also inflated prices at local shops now, as people see how the party is. Even as much as having the merchants say "I know you can afford it with how you've strongarmed my fellows for more gold!"
Group I run doesn't do this (dig for more reward) likely because they know it likely won't go well and they understand true heroes don't extort.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I’d say start having the NPC’s say no way and push back. At some point they are going to get bored doing nothing and making 0 gp and be willing to compromise and negotiate in good faith, like in real life.
I'd suggest a dose of Out of Character discussion is called for here.
At the beginning of your next session take some time out to explain the following:
Not every merchant is going to be able to haggle. Why? Well just like your characters they all have different backgrounds. One merchant may be just about feeding their family by skipping meals twice a week. Another might be extremely greedy and will flat out try and get the most profit possible. Much like a Natural 20 doesn't guarantee success, just because your character wants to haggle doesn't mean all the NPCs are willing to. The constant haggling has me worried for what lays ahead in future adventures. What if your party come across a town that use different currency? What if your party end up somewhere that silver pieces are more valuable than gold pieces? To create a varied and most vivid world for you all I need you as players, and thus your characters to understand that constantly haggling and refusing to settle for the stated reward is making that much more difficult for me.
The other tactic is out and out consequences of actions. Have the town guard confront the party because they are wanted for coersion, shaking people down, and threats of voilence.
If your players do not understand this explaination, or refuse to accept it, then it is quite likley that they are not the right fit for you as a DM. Honestly, it's kind of essential sometimes to just be honest and frank with your players. If they are being problematic, or causing you fatigue as a DM tell them that. I've always been clear with my players if something is fatiguing me as a DM. Frankly, if a player drops out of a game due to irritations of player quirks they can easily be replaced. If a DM drops out for the same reason...that's more often than not the end of the line for that adventure. My players fortunately understand that and are wonderfully understanding of themselves, their fellow players, and me as DM.
What if your party end up somewhere that silver pieces are more valuable than gold pieces? What if your party come across a town that use different currency? What if your party end up somewhere that silver pieces are more valuable than gold pieces?
Gold and silver aren't currencies, they're rare metals. You could melt a gold coin and it would still retain the same value. What we use in real life has no intrinsic value. A $100 bill is no different from a $1 one in terms of material cost. The value we give them is symbolic. They're just certificates that proves you own a fraction of the gold stored in bank vaults. They're also affected by inflation and deflation. Print or mint too much certificates and they'll be worth a lesser share of that gold. Metals used to mint coins in D&D, i.e. copper, silver, gold, and platinum, are always valuable. They don't rust and they are limited in supply. No matter which country or planet you go to, your coins remain valuable. It doesn't matter if the face of a monarch from a different realm figures on your coin, it still has the same value in weight. The only way for those metals to lose value is if we manage to create an unlimited supply of them by transforming iron, a readily available metal, into more valuable metals. This process is called alchemy and it has long been proven impossible.
The only way I can see someplace in D&D giving more value to silver is if they have a werewolf problem and don't have easy access to a bank to convert their gold coins to silver ones. Something like a settlement completely cut off from the rest of the world apart from adventurers strong and brave enough to venture there. If traveling to the nearest settlement that can convert gold to silver is too arduous for the people living there, then it makes sense for them to only accept silver coins when doing business with adventurers. Besides, if it was easy to leave their home, they wouldn't be there anymore.
Back on topic, plenty of good advice has been given already. I do have one piece that wasn't mentioned yet. While your players are haggling for a better quest reward, have another group of adventurers come in and accept the quest for the stated reward. That way, you're not only teaching them that actions have consequences, in this case losing the opportunity to do the quest and getting the reward, but also introducing a rival group of adventurers. Call of the Netherdeep has a great chapter on how to make compelling Rivals.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
What if your party end up somewhere that silver pieces are more valuable than gold pieces? What if your party come across a town that use different currency? What if your party end up somewhere that silver pieces are more valuable than gold pieces?
Gold and silver aren't currencies, they're rare metals. You could melt a gold coin and it would still retain the same value. What we use in real life has no intrinsic value. A $100 bill is no different from a $1 one in terms of material cost. The value we give them is symbolic. They're just certificates that proves you own a fraction of the gold stored in bank vaults. They're also affected by inflation and deflation. Print or mint too much certificates and they'll be worth a lesser share of that gold. Metals used to mint coins in D&D, i.e. copper, silver, gold, and platinum, are always valuable. They don't rust and they are limited in supply. No matter which country or planet you go to, your coins remain valuable. It doesn't matter if the face of a monarch from a different realm figures on your coin, it still has the same value in weight. The only way for those metals to lose value is if we manage to create an unlimited supply of them by transforming iron, a readily available metal, into more valuable metals. This process is called alchemy and it has long been proven impossible.
The only way I can see someplace in D&D giving more value to silver is if they have a werewolf problem and don't have easy access to a bank to convert their gold coins to silver ones. Something like a settlement completely cut off from the rest of the world apart from adventurers strong and brave enough to venture there. If traveling to the nearest settlement that can convert gold to silver is too arduous for the people living there, then it makes sense for them to only accept silver coins when doing business with adventurers. Besides, if it was easy to leave their home, they wouldn't be there anymore.
Back on topic, plenty of good advice has been given already. I do have one piece that wasn't mentioned yet. While your players are haggling for a better quest reward, have another group of adventurers come in and accept the quest for the stated reward. That way, you're not only teaching them that actions have consequences, in this case losing the opportunity to do the quest and getting the reward, but also introducing a rival group of adventurers. Call of the Netherdeep has a great chapter on how to make compelling Rivals
The only reason anything metal, gem, or whatever, has value beyond its utility is because we have decided to say it does because it is slightly rarer than some other substance. Using the silver vs gold example, while gold is rarer than silver (though not nearly as rare as people think), compared to silver, outside jewelery gold has very limited uses compared to silver. Over half of silver mined is used for commercial applications. Based on that alone, silver has more applicable value than gold. But, as a society, because it is a bit scarcer and we have decided it is prettier, we have decided gold is more valuable. It is very realistic for a culture, particularly in a fantasy setting with magic changing the equation, to decide along the way that the scarcity of gold compared to silver is irrelevant and value silver more than gold. There are even real world examples. Inscriptions and writing left behind from ancient egypt indicate that for much of ancient egypt's history silver was valued and prized much more highly than gold.
Or, you could sideline roleplay for shopping, have the player roll a Persuasion Check against a DC for the Store... with the store having bonuses depending on how little they're likely to negotiate... and depending on the player's roll, you just tell them what the best price they can get after haggling is, and the players decide to either pay it, on not engage in business.
Also, once the die is rolled and the success determined, the negotiation is over.
If the players continue to push the issue then bluntly tell them, "This interaction is over, your characters have already negotiated, move on please."
How do you move the game along when the players don't want to do the quests for the fees/amounts listed? How do you hook them? My thought for the next session is to have a thief steal all they coins at night, then they won't have any funds and must take a job.
thoughts?
If they're trying to negotiate with shopkeepers then it's easy, you just say no and move on. It gets more tricky though when you have a quest planned, and the players don't want to do the quest but you don't want to make it obvious that the story is a railroad thru this quest.
If the planned reward was 50 and they want 70, that's barely any different so I'd just say yes and move on. Demanding treasure found also sounds pretty reasonable - that's definitely a standard offer I would always have the NPCs throw in. If they start getting more and more greedy (which is typical), then I'd advise trying to limit things to a point but generally cave in the interest of keeping the game going. You can always just give them bigger quest rewards but then balance things behind the scenes by reducing the treasure found or increasing shop prices. Or maybe just let them go crazy collecting a bunch of gold and magic items, then just throw harder creatures at them, etc. The key is to keep the game moving along, you can always balance things out as you go
There are several ways to deal with this but the best is probably chatting to the players outside of the game.
D&D is a role playing game and the party is a group of adventurers looking to earn some coin, fame, fortune, treasure etc. The players need to ask themselves why are their characters out there adventuring if they don't want to adventure? If they ask why they should accept 50gp for a mission then explain to them that there are other adventurers who will step up and try to earn the funds. If they don't want to adventure then why are they playing the game?
Also, perhaps point out that the police, when they offer a reward, don't increase it when someone walks in demanding more money. Contracts are often issued either with a fixed value or through competitive bidding. The person offering the contract doesn't just increase the money they pay because the person doing the work says "pay me more".
These are new adventurers with little experience and probably little chance of success (at least from the point of view of the person offering the reward). There is no basis for them to demand more or expect to receive more except the players apparently deciding that the characters deserve more with an implicit threat of "give us more or we won't play". If that is what they really want then I'd lean towards the "do not play" honestly. On the other hand, maybe the players really don't understand how the whole concept of bargaining works and when it is applicable and when it isn't. Maybe they don't really understand role playing either or have given any thought as to why their characters are actually out adventuring in the first place. Adventuring is dangerous, and 50gp is a fortune from the perspective of a local farmer or most local workers - 50gp is also likely a small fortune from the perspective of the town or individual offering the reward.
Anyway, the NPCs should probably just say "Take it or leave it, this is the reward we can afford to offer for this task. If you don't want it, you don't have to, another group of adventurers will likely be along that isn't so demanding."
Using the silver vs gold example, while gold is rarer than silver (though not nearly as rare as people think), compared to silver, outside jewelery gold has very limited uses compared to silver.
When it comes to utility alone, gold is generally more useful than silver. Please do your research before making such a a claim.
Using the silver vs gold example, while gold is rarer than silver (though not nearly as rare as people think), compared to silver, outside jewelery gold has very limited uses compared to silver.
When it comes to utility alone, gold is generally more useful than silver. Please do your research before making such a a claim.
Take for example an island where Gold is naturally found, but Silver, Iron and the likes are not found. Such a place is entirely possible within the worlds created by GMs for this game. It is after all fictional. Gold used for decoration might be everywhere, and without access to copper, iron, tin or alloys such as bronze said population might come to value Iron or Bronze more highly for it's properties in developing weaponry. This in fact happened to several historical populations particularly several tribes in the area that is now know as Wales. It can also be argued that it happened to with the Spanish visiting Meso America.
Such a situation could lead to traders valuing say copper and tin for it's abilities to create bronze from at a higher rate that the native and abundant gold. Because the item they value higher is in shorter supply, and the item they value less is in higher supply. This is supposed to be the way a free market economy works...of course no country in the real world has a free market economy.
What you miss is that while yes, gold has many uses, it's value in our real world is based on it's perceieved rarity. So too, are all trade models. They are based on the values to which we assign them.
Stretching this idea. Stinging Nettles, Wild Primrose, and Dog Rose are all considered common and pest plants with little value in garden centres and among circles where garden lovers value decoration over substance as a result they cost next to nothing compared to other plants. To me as a veg grower, I value these plants far more highly because of their ability to lure in beneficial insects and predators (ladybirds, butterflies, bees, parasitic wasps). They are native plants to my region as well meaning that they grow extremely well in my climate. Two have actual nutirional and culinary purposes making them, to me, valueable plants to have. Yet the world does not agree.
What you missed here is that uses do not equal value. Concensus agrees value.
In most trade economies (and we have to look at pre-corporate history for this) values would have been roughly equivelent in trade. 'I've got these spare eggs, do you want to take them off my hands for something of equal value?' This is the very basics of how specialisations grew from agrarian cultures. The Roman and Hellenic empires are great examples of this, so too is the silk road.
So, before you go leaping to geology to support what are pretty thin and weak opinions, I'd suggest taking a moment to consider these things. Trade is far more complicated an issue than I think you've realised and even I having touched on a few small areas have probably not gone into enough depth to satisfy the true complexity of even basic issues. (Historians and Economists I sincerely apologise).
Returning then to the topic, as I said previously players every so often need a lesson in not being able to do everything. I phrase this as the obstacle course. My job as a GM is to build an obstacle course. The purpose of which is to provide challenge that gives players a sense of accomplishment when overcoming said challenge. Being clear that part of that challenge is NPCs who will refuse to negotiate in a discussion out of character can be extremely valuable. So, if the OP doesn't like my original examples, perhaps this phrasing makes more sense.
I have this one player who's always grumbling about motivation.
A long time ago, I tried to tell him that his character has to want to be a hero - that, for anyone to go out and risk their lives, there has to be a smidgen of heroism. He disagreed, said his character just wants to get rich or die trying.
Eventually, I told him instead that the payment is just icing on the cake. What makes you rich if the loot, not the reward. We still revisit this sometimes.
In future, I think I'll try another approach: NPC's will offer to tell the PC's where the villains are, in return for 10% of the loot. Negotiate that, you goons! :p
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'd definitely have a talk out of game. Are the players not interested, ie. maybe they'd rather be playing a dark gothic setting, or a space campaign? Or are they being meta, thinking they're the only adventuring party in town, or the DM needs us to do these quests to advance the game?
I'm running Icespire for my kids at the moment, the quests really don't seem to drive any plot. I think I'd introduce a competing NPC party of adventures, you don't even need them to actually show up. Just have the quest giver reply "You don't want to do it for 50 gp? Ok Bregan Stonebite's party will" and take it off the quest board next time the players check. You could skip a few and the only downside I can see is it might mess with the level progression (just make up reasons to do a couple of the side quests.) You could even make that a hook for the party to approach the dragon. "Bregan's party went out to investigate the dragon's den and hasn't come back."
Just thought of this.. have everyone in town commenting on how Bregan is so handsome, such a stand up guy, great tipper, etc. etc. But the characters always just miss him. Then a hilarious twist at the end, the whole town made him up to goad the characters into completing the jobs! =D
Hi
New DM - ran second night of Dragon of Ice Spear campaign. We have done 3 of the quests in the campaign as well as time in a bar doing gambling and drinking games. They loved the games and we laughed considerably. What I planned for 45 minutes took close to 90.
Anyway - my problem is they want to negotiate for everything and it is dragging the quests to a standstill. 50 gp is the payment for completing a quest, but they want 70, and won't accept 50 - period. I have raised the amount some, but every encounter with a NPC they want more and more. We did dwarven excavation quest from Ice Spear. I had to offer 75 gp each to entice them, and then they wouldn't go into the temple unless guaranteed additional gold and any riches found in the temple. Game play basically stopped as they simple were not going in without more payment. Their view - why should I put myself in danger?
How do you move the game along when the players don't want to do the quests for the fees/amounts listed? How do you hook them? My thought for the next session is to have a thief steal all they coins at night, then they won't have any funds and must take a job.
thoughts?
Let them not do the adventure.
If adventurers are only in it for the money, they'll soon discover they have more money than they need and will quit adventuring. Money is useful as a way to encourage them to go on one adventure over a different one, but they would likely end up going out adventuring anyway.
If a potential customer keeps trying to haggle after the shop keeper tells them the price is final, the shop keeper will just tell them to get out, because it's a store, not a charity, and their business isn't worth the hastle.
Or, you could sideline roleplay for shopping, have the player roll a Persuasion Check against a DC for the Store... with the store having bonuses depending on how little they're likely to negotiate... and depending on the player's roll, you just tell them what the best price they can get after haggling is, and the players decide to either pay it, on not engage in business.
Example: So if something has a base price of 100gp, and the store has it marked at 125gp, and the players want to haggle, they roll a Persuasion Check, and if they fail to meet the DC, the item has the shopkeeper's marked price, if the party matches the DC, they can get it for a 10% discount (112gp 5sp). If the party exceeds the DC by 5, they get it for the base price (100gp), and if they exceed the DC by 10, they get a 5% discount off of the base price (95gp).
Add to that, within 5 of the DC, get it for list price. Miss by more than 5 and the shopkeeper is offended and won't do business with you.
Because they're adventurers. The PCs are obligated to play characters that are, or can be, motivated to go on quests or adventures without extended wooing. This is a requirement of the game. They're certainly free to turn down a particular hook, or even play hardball when negotiating, but if they're just being intransigent and refusing anything then those characters should retire from the adventuring life and find safer occupations. The players can then generate new characters that want to go on adventures.
Talk to your players. Tell them that it is slowing down the game, and talk about what story they are trying to make with these characters so that you can better present situations in ways that will be enticing to them without giving away to much gold/items. Is it fame they want? Play up the way the townspeople react to their adventures. If it's just the money? If they can just deal with these people and their poor offers for long enough - they may get enough power to raid a dragon's hoard. That is the end goal, after all. The dragon. Everyone else also has good ideas, you should pick a few to try. Make sure to talk to your players about any changes though. If all your NPCs have been relative pushovers up to this point, they may get upset if you change this suddenly without warning. Likewise with any other changes. It's their game to, make sure to involve them.
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
Don't know the module, but is there time sensitive stuff involved? Dragon gonna attack the town unless situation X is resolved? I'd look for a way for their greed to complicate their lives and cost them for being overly greedy. Enemy sacks nearby village maybe because the "heroes" (said with a derisive snort, by the speaker) were too busy trying to extort the townspeople.
Maybe on their next quest-giver visit, have the person openly challenge them on it. "Oh, the local coin grubbers are here! Well I hope they aren't expecting THIS merchant to kiss their jeweled arses and start showering them with gold I don't have. Got me work I need done and got me a budget for it. Take it or leave it!" Also have the person send them packing, NO negotiation if/when they start trying to haggle. If they press, have the person get angry and forcibly chase them from his property. Let them know THAT line is now closed and they won't be able to see/attain the rewards that were intended. If they ask why, explain their greedy nature has earned them a bad reputation around town. Folks are looking for pretty much anyone BUT the group to help them out. Also inflated prices at local shops now, as people see how the party is. Even as much as having the merchants say "I know you can afford it with how you've strongarmed my fellows for more gold!"
Group I run doesn't do this (dig for more reward) likely because they know it likely won't go well and they understand true heroes don't extort.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I’d say start having the NPC’s say no way and push back. At some point they are going to get bored doing nothing and making 0 gp and be willing to compromise and negotiate in good faith, like in real life.
I'd suggest a dose of Out of Character discussion is called for here.
At the beginning of your next session take some time out to explain the following:
Not every merchant is going to be able to haggle. Why? Well just like your characters they all have different backgrounds. One merchant may be just about feeding their family by skipping meals twice a week. Another might be extremely greedy and will flat out try and get the most profit possible. Much like a Natural 20 doesn't guarantee success, just because your character wants to haggle doesn't mean all the NPCs are willing to. The constant haggling has me worried for what lays ahead in future adventures. What if your party come across a town that use different currency? What if your party end up somewhere that silver pieces are more valuable than gold pieces? To create a varied and most vivid world for you all I need you as players, and thus your characters to understand that constantly haggling and refusing to settle for the stated reward is making that much more difficult for me.
The other tactic is out and out consequences of actions. Have the town guard confront the party because they are wanted for coersion, shaking people down, and threats of voilence.
If your players do not understand this explaination, or refuse to accept it, then it is quite likley that they are not the right fit for you as a DM. Honestly, it's kind of essential sometimes to just be honest and frank with your players. If they are being problematic, or causing you fatigue as a DM tell them that. I've always been clear with my players if something is fatiguing me as a DM. Frankly, if a player drops out of a game due to irritations of player quirks they can easily be replaced. If a DM drops out for the same reason...that's more often than not the end of the line for that adventure. My players fortunately understand that and are wonderfully understanding of themselves, their fellow players, and me as DM.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Gold and silver aren't currencies, they're rare metals. You could melt a gold coin and it would still retain the same value. What we use in real life has no intrinsic value. A $100 bill is no different from a $1 one in terms of material cost. The value we give them is symbolic. They're just certificates that proves you own a fraction of the gold stored in bank vaults. They're also affected by inflation and deflation. Print or mint too much certificates and they'll be worth a lesser share of that gold. Metals used to mint coins in D&D, i.e. copper, silver, gold, and platinum, are always valuable. They don't rust and they are limited in supply. No matter which country or planet you go to, your coins remain valuable. It doesn't matter if the face of a monarch from a different realm figures on your coin, it still has the same value in weight. The only way for those metals to lose value is if we manage to create an unlimited supply of them by transforming iron, a readily available metal, into more valuable metals. This process is called alchemy and it has long been proven impossible.
The only way I can see someplace in D&D giving more value to silver is if they have a werewolf problem and don't have easy access to a bank to convert their gold coins to silver ones. Something like a settlement completely cut off from the rest of the world apart from adventurers strong and brave enough to venture there. If traveling to the nearest settlement that can convert gold to silver is too arduous for the people living there, then it makes sense for them to only accept silver coins when doing business with adventurers. Besides, if it was easy to leave their home, they wouldn't be there anymore.
Back on topic, plenty of good advice has been given already. I do have one piece that wasn't mentioned yet. While your players are haggling for a better quest reward, have another group of adventurers come in and accept the quest for the stated reward. That way, you're not only teaching them that actions have consequences, in this case losing the opportunity to do the quest and getting the reward, but also introducing a rival group of adventurers. Call of the Netherdeep has a great chapter on how to make compelling Rivals.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
The only reason anything metal, gem, or whatever, has value beyond its utility is because we have decided to say it does because it is slightly rarer than some other substance. Using the silver vs gold example, while gold is rarer than silver (though not nearly as rare as people think), compared to silver, outside jewelery gold has very limited uses compared to silver. Over half of silver mined is used for commercial applications. Based on that alone, silver has more applicable value than gold. But, as a society, because it is a bit scarcer and we have decided it is prettier, we have decided gold is more valuable. It is very realistic for a culture, particularly in a fantasy setting with magic changing the equation, to decide along the way that the scarcity of gold compared to silver is irrelevant and value silver more than gold. There are even real world examples. Inscriptions and writing left behind from ancient egypt indicate that for much of ancient egypt's history silver was valued and prized much more highly than gold.
Also, once the die is rolled and the success determined, the negotiation is over.
If the players continue to push the issue then bluntly tell them, "This interaction is over, your characters have already negotiated, move on please."
If they're trying to negotiate with shopkeepers then it's easy, you just say no and move on. It gets more tricky though when you have a quest planned, and the players don't want to do the quest but you don't want to make it obvious that the story is a railroad thru this quest.
If the planned reward was 50 and they want 70, that's barely any different so I'd just say yes and move on. Demanding treasure found also sounds pretty reasonable - that's definitely a standard offer I would always have the NPCs throw in. If they start getting more and more greedy (which is typical), then I'd advise trying to limit things to a point but generally cave in the interest of keeping the game going. You can always just give them bigger quest rewards but then balance things behind the scenes by reducing the treasure found or increasing shop prices. Or maybe just let them go crazy collecting a bunch of gold and magic items, then just throw harder creatures at them, etc. The key is to keep the game moving along, you can always balance things out as you go
Great thoughts - thanks so much. We will chat before play about goals and the like.
There are several ways to deal with this but the best is probably chatting to the players outside of the game.
D&D is a role playing game and the party is a group of adventurers looking to earn some coin, fame, fortune, treasure etc. The players need to ask themselves why are their characters out there adventuring if they don't want to adventure? If they ask why they should accept 50gp for a mission then explain to them that there are other adventurers who will step up and try to earn the funds. If they don't want to adventure then why are they playing the game?
Also, perhaps point out that the police, when they offer a reward, don't increase it when someone walks in demanding more money. Contracts are often issued either with a fixed value or through competitive bidding. The person offering the contract doesn't just increase the money they pay because the person doing the work says "pay me more".
These are new adventurers with little experience and probably little chance of success (at least from the point of view of the person offering the reward). There is no basis for them to demand more or expect to receive more except the players apparently deciding that the characters deserve more with an implicit threat of "give us more or we won't play". If that is what they really want then I'd lean towards the "do not play" honestly. On the other hand, maybe the players really don't understand how the whole concept of bargaining works and when it is applicable and when it isn't. Maybe they don't really understand role playing either or have given any thought as to why their characters are actually out adventuring in the first place. Adventuring is dangerous, and 50gp is a fortune from the perspective of a local farmer or most local workers - 50gp is also likely a small fortune from the perspective of the town or individual offering the reward.
Anyway, the NPCs should probably just say "Take it or leave it, this is the reward we can afford to offer for this task. If you don't want it, you don't have to, another group of adventurers will likely be along that isn't so demanding."
When it comes to utility alone, gold is generally more useful than silver. Please do your research before making such a a claim.
https://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml
https://geology.com/articles/uses-of-silver/
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
You entirely missed the point I made Flaxo.
Take for example an island where Gold is naturally found, but Silver, Iron and the likes are not found. Such a place is entirely possible within the worlds created by GMs for this game. It is after all fictional. Gold used for decoration might be everywhere, and without access to copper, iron, tin or alloys such as bronze said population might come to value Iron or Bronze more highly for it's properties in developing weaponry. This in fact happened to several historical populations particularly several tribes in the area that is now know as Wales. It can also be argued that it happened to with the Spanish visiting Meso America.
Such a situation could lead to traders valuing say copper and tin for it's abilities to create bronze from at a higher rate that the native and abundant gold. Because the item they value higher is in shorter supply, and the item they value less is in higher supply. This is supposed to be the way a free market economy works...of course no country in the real world has a free market economy.
What you miss is that while yes, gold has many uses, it's value in our real world is based on it's perceieved rarity. So too, are all trade models. They are based on the values to which we assign them.
Stretching this idea. Stinging Nettles, Wild Primrose, and Dog Rose are all considered common and pest plants with little value in garden centres and among circles where garden lovers value decoration over substance as a result they cost next to nothing compared to other plants. To me as a veg grower, I value these plants far more highly because of their ability to lure in beneficial insects and predators (ladybirds, butterflies, bees, parasitic wasps). They are native plants to my region as well meaning that they grow extremely well in my climate. Two have actual nutirional and culinary purposes making them, to me, valueable plants to have. Yet the world does not agree.
What you missed here is that uses do not equal value. Concensus agrees value.
In most trade economies (and we have to look at pre-corporate history for this) values would have been roughly equivelent in trade. 'I've got these spare eggs, do you want to take them off my hands for something of equal value?' This is the very basics of how specialisations grew from agrarian cultures. The Roman and Hellenic empires are great examples of this, so too is the silk road.
So, before you go leaping to geology to support what are pretty thin and weak opinions, I'd suggest taking a moment to consider these things. Trade is far more complicated an issue than I think you've realised and even I having touched on a few small areas have probably not gone into enough depth to satisfy the true complexity of even basic issues. (Historians and Economists I sincerely apologise).
Returning then to the topic, as I said previously players every so often need a lesson in not being able to do everything. I phrase this as the obstacle course. My job as a GM is to build an obstacle course. The purpose of which is to provide challenge that gives players a sense of accomplishment when overcoming said challenge. Being clear that part of that challenge is NPCs who will refuse to negotiate in a discussion out of character can be extremely valuable. So, if the OP doesn't like my original examples, perhaps this phrasing makes more sense.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
I have this one player who's always grumbling about motivation.
A long time ago, I tried to tell him that his character has to want to be a hero - that, for anyone to go out and risk their lives, there has to be a smidgen of heroism. He disagreed, said his character just wants to get rich or die trying.
Eventually, I told him instead that the payment is just icing on the cake. What makes you rich if the loot, not the reward. We still revisit this sometimes.
In future, I think I'll try another approach: NPC's will offer to tell the PC's where the villains are, in return for 10% of the loot. Negotiate that, you goons! :p
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'd definitely have a talk out of game. Are the players not interested, ie. maybe they'd rather be playing a dark gothic setting, or a space campaign? Or are they being meta, thinking they're the only adventuring party in town, or the DM needs us to do these quests to advance the game?
I'm running Icespire for my kids at the moment, the quests really don't seem to drive any plot. I think I'd introduce a competing NPC party of adventures, you don't even need them to actually show up. Just have the quest giver reply "You don't want to do it for 50 gp? Ok Bregan Stonebite's party will" and take it off the quest board next time the players check. You could skip a few and the only downside I can see is it might mess with the level progression (just make up reasons to do a couple of the side quests.) You could even make that a hook for the party to approach the dragon. "Bregan's party went out to investigate the dragon's den and hasn't come back."
Just thought of this.. have everyone in town commenting on how Bregan is so handsome, such a stand up guy, great tipper, etc. etc. But the characters always just miss him. Then a hilarious twist at the end, the whole town made him up to goad the characters into completing the jobs! =D