Members of the Kalashtar Campaign (Bin CHKN, Sidra Aiken, Cobarn, Leiver) Stop reading :D
Hello DMs of the DMing, I want to make sure my party is nice and balanced, so I came here to get some advice from you guys and make sure that we've got all the bases covered. Here is the team!
Star Elf (Homebrew SubRace) Elequence Bard
Aaracokra (No Fly Though) Ancestral Guardian Barbarian
Yuan-Ti Genie Warlock / Rouge (Soon to be a Divine Soul Sorcerer)
Kobold Armorer Artificer (I have nothing to put in this Bracket)
At the moment it looks like a lot of tanking (Ancestral Guardian, Armorer) but our spellcasting is weak, same with support, that's why we're swapping to the Divine Soul Sorcerer, so I hope that covers it all, but I fear I might be missing something?
Seems sorta fine but one character I at least have an issue with is the Artificer. That class is weak enough I give a warning to the player in question and the group as a whole before signing off. It honestly feels like 1/2 of a character, and better suited to being a sidekick or an NPC.
Seems sorta fine but one character I at least have an issue with is the Artificer. That class is weak enough I give a warning to the player in question and the group as a whole before signing off. It honestly feels like 1/2 of a character, and better suited to being a sidekick or an NPC.
Yeah I feel that too, we're at Level 5 at the moment, any good multiclass reccomendations out of artificer from here?
If you’re committed to Artificer remaining part of the character, maybe Rogue or Wizard? Both benefit from a high intelligence and we can hope the dexterity is average at least. Full admission I am not good for awesome multiclassing. I only hop on the bandwagons of those that are :p
If you’re committed to Artificer remaining part of the character, maybe Rogue or Wizard? Both benefit from a high intelligence and we can hope the dexterity is average at least. Full admission I am not good for awesome multiclassing. I only hop on the bandwagons of those that are :p
Members of the Kalashtar Campaign (Bin CHKN, Sidra Aiken, Cobarn, Leiver) Stop reading :D
Hello DMs of the DMing, I want to make sure my party is nice and balanced, so I came here to get some advice from you guys and make sure that we've got all the bases covered. Here is the team!
Star Elf (Homebrew SubRace) Elequence Bard
Aaracokra (No Fly Though) Ancestral Guardian Barbarian
Yuan-Ti Genie Warlock / Rouge (Soon to be a Divine Soul Sorcerer)
Kobold Armorer Artificer (I have nothing to put in this Bracket)
At the moment it looks like a lot of tanking (Ancestral Guardian, Armorer) but our spellcasting is weak, same with support, that's why we're swapping to the Divine Soul Sorcerer, so I hope that covers it all, but I fear I might be missing something?
Thanks for the help!
I think you definitely have enough bases covered there!
Bard is a great and versatile full spellcaster. They have a limited amount of spells to choose, but they are a great caster class with healing, crowd control and buffs. They are also great at skill related checks / situations.
Artificer depends a lot on the subclass. They don't get a ton of damage, but they are well rounded. Armorer is very versatile and useful if the player doesn't mind that there are very limited ways to increase damage output. The damage is OK, but not massive compared to many other classes. Artificer is especially useful if played/allowed to be played creatively. Support, healing, utility, problem solving. High Intelligence and quite SAD. Multiclassing with wizard if you want that extra Pew Pew at the expense of fewer Artificer features. I would recommend using the Spell point variant when multiclassing two casters if allowed. Allows for a more satisfying experience. With slots, you get those bigger slots that you don't have spells for. With spell points you can divide those extra points for low level spells instead.
Barbarian is always strong. You get a lot of strength for your party too. Weak ranged, but that's not really a problem in this party. Artificer can deal solid ranged attacks and you have a Sorlock for insane ranged attacks.
Warlock/rogue/sorcerer - That's a bit widespread. Looks like the player is probably going for a very specific damage build. This or that, a Sorlock will get your party some sick ranged spell damage. The Rogue is surprising and probably quite unnecessary. I know some solid Roguelock builds with pact of the blade and assassin. But they are also going with Sorcerer, so I don't know what they are going for. Of course Rogue is one of the best dip classes out there. You get a lot of value for just 1 level. But here they are also going Sorcerer. Warlock and sorcerer use a different source of spell resources, so they don't stack. For example a Bard and a Sorcerer combo would get you pretty much the same amount of slots as a single class caster, but with lower level spells. Sorlock gets you those Pact slots that refresh with a short rest and those spellcasting slots that refresh on a long rest. Sorlocks are insanely strong when built right, but they are very widespread already. So the rogue seems a bit of a stretch in that regard. But it might be some super optimized build that I've just never heard of. :) If the player is new, then I'd warn them that such comboes can be quite tiring/boring to level up until they reach that sweet spot. A lot of their progress is delayed, so they'll be stuck in Groundhog day, going through those low level features over and over again. And if you are new as a DM and looking for that balance, then I'd look into this build specifically.
Warlocks get the Eldritch Blast cantrip, which shoots separate Force beams. These are all considered separate attacks. So with the right Invocation, you add your Cha modifier to each. You can combine this with Hex for an additional d8 for each beam. As a sorcerer you get Quickened Spell for double Eldritch Blast. So with an 18 charisma, at level 5 you could do 4d10+4d8+16 damage in one turn. Not going further into detail, but there are even more options for insane damage optimization here. :)
This reply turned out longer than I thought. But to sum up:
Your party is very strong IMO. But it doesn't have to be. DnD is very forgiving in this sense, depending a lot on the DM. You will probably end up having to make some modifications to the difficulty anyways. In this case you might have to increase the difficulty, I don't know the campaign in question. But if you almost always have to slide the difficulty slider anyways, then it's also ok to reduce the difficulty if your party wants to play a less optimized group. This is of course up to the DM. You can go by the book 100% if you want to. But parties are so dramatically different in terms of power that it's oftentimes easier IMO to just take a few sessions to calibrate and then make slight changes to the difficulty based on how strong/weak the party is, so that the encounters will offer a proper challenge. :)
If you want to further improve the versatility of the part, then maybe replace one of the Charisma classes (Bard and Warlock) with a Wisdom class. Bard is a utility/support class, so to keep the role the same, maybe replace Bard with a Cleric or a Druid.
Members of the Kalashtar Campaign (Bin CHKN, Sidra Aiken, Cobarn, Leiver) Stop reading :D
Hello DMs of the DMing, I want to make sure my party is nice and balanced, so I came here to get some advice from you guys and make sure that we've got all the bases covered. Here is the team!
Star Elf (Homebrew SubRace) Elequence Bard
Aaracokra (No Fly Though) Ancestral Guardian Barbarian
Yuan-Ti Genie Warlock / Rouge (Soon to be a Divine Soul Sorcerer)
Kobold Armorer Artificer (I have nothing to put in this Bracket)
At the moment it looks like a lot of tanking (Ancestral Guardian, Armorer) but our spellcasting is weak, same with support, that's why we're swapping to the Divine Soul Sorcerer, so I hope that covers it all, but I fear I might be missing something?
Thanks for the help!
I think you definitely have enough bases covered there!
Bard is a great and versatile full spellcaster. They have a limited amount of spells to choose, but they are a great caster class with healing, crowd control and buffs. They are also great at skill related checks / situations.
Artificer depends a lot on the subclass. They don't get a ton of damage, but they are well rounded. Armorer is very versatile and useful if the player doesn't mind that there are very limited ways to increase damage output. The damage is OK, but not massive compared to many other classes. Artificer is especially useful if played/allowed to be played creatively. Support, healing, utility, problem solving. High Intelligence and quite SAD. Multiclassing with wizard if you want that extra Pew Pew at the expense of fewer Artificer features. I would recommend using the Spell point variant when multiclassing two casters if allowed. Allows for a more satisfying experience. With slots, you get those bigger slots that you don't have spells for. With spell points you can divide those extra points for low level spells instead.
Barbarian is always strong. You get a lot of strength for your party too. Weak ranged, but that's not really a problem in this party. Artificer can deal solid ranged attacks and you have a Sorlock for insane ranged attacks.
Warlock/rogue/sorcerer - That's a bit widespread. Looks like the player is probably going for a very specific damage build. This or that, a Sorlock will get your party some sick ranged spell damage. The Rogue is surprising and probably quite unnecessary. I know some solid Roguelock builds with pact of the blade and assassin. But they are also going with Sorcerer, so I don't know what they are going for. Of course Rogue is one of the best dip classes out there. You get a lot of value for just 1 level. But here they are also going Sorcerer. Warlock and sorcerer use a different source of spell resources, so they don't stack. For example a Bard and a Sorcerer combo would get you pretty much the same amount of slots as a single class caster, but with lower level spells. Sorlock gets you those Pact slots that refresh with a short rest and those spellcasting slots that refresh on a long rest. Sorlocks are insanely strong when built right, but they are very widespread already. So the rogue seems a bit of a stretch in that regard. But it might be some super optimized build that I've just never heard of. :) If the player is new, then I'd warn them that such comboes can be quite tiring/boring to level up until they reach that sweet spot. A lot of their progress is delayed, so they'll be stuck in Groundhog day, going through those low level features over and over again. And if you are new as a DM and looking for that balance, then I'd look into this build specifically.
Warlocks get the Eldritch Blast cantrip, which shoots separate Force beams. These are all considered separate attacks. So with the right Invocation, you add your Cha modifier to each. You can combine this with Hex for an additional d8 for each beam. As a sorcerer you get Quickened Spell for double Eldritch Blast. So with an 18 charisma, at level 5 you could do 4d10+4d8+16 damage in one turn. Not going further into detail, but there are even more options for insane damage optimization here. :)
This reply turned out longer than I thought. But to sum up:
Your party is very strong IMO. But it doesn't have to be. DnD is very forgiving in this sense, depending a lot on the DM. You will probably end up having to make some modifications to the difficulty anyways. In this case you might have to increase the difficulty, I don't know the campaign in question. But if you almost always have to slide the difficulty slider anyways, then it's also ok to reduce the difficulty if your party wants to play a less optimized group. This is of course up to the DM. You can go by the book 100% if you want to. But parties are so dramatically different in terms of power that it's oftentimes easier IMO to just take a few sessions to calibrate and then make slight changes to the difficulty based on how strong/weak the party is, so that the encounters will offer a proper challenge. :)
If you want to further improve the versatility of the part, then maybe replace one of the Charisma classes (Bard and Warlock) with a Wisdom class. Bard is a utility/support class, so to keep the role the same, maybe replace Bard with a Cleric or a Druid.
I hope this was helpful.
Cheers
This is a gorgeous reply thank you very much! Just a quick note (sorry I didn't make it clear); My Rouge/Warlock Player is currently a Rougelock, but isn't having fun and changing over entirely to Divine Soul Sorcerer(erer). And I think that just balances it out a little better. Anyways Thank you so so much!
Well a Divine Soul Sorcerer can be a Spell Damage Cannon like any other Sorcerer build, if it wants to, but also an insanely good combat healer / buffer with Twinned Spell, so even more than before, you have everything covered. :)
Members of the Kalashtar Campaign (Bin CHKN, Sidra Aiken, Cobarn, Leiver) Stop reading :D
Hello DMs of the DMing, I want to make sure my party is nice and balanced, so I came here to get some advice from you guys and make sure that we've got all the bases covered. Here is the team!
Star Elf (Homebrew SubRace) Elequence Bard
Aaracokra (No Fly Though) Ancestral Guardian Barbarian
Yuan-Ti Genie Warlock / Rouge (Soon to be a Divine Soul Sorcerer)
Kobold Armorer Artificer (I have nothing to put in this Bracket)
At the moment it looks like a lot of tanking (Ancestral Guardian, Armorer) but our spellcasting is weak, same with support, that's why we're swapping to the Divine Soul Sorcerer, so I hope that covers it all, but I fear I might be missing something?
Thanks for the help!
5e is very forgiving concerning balance, a party probably want access to healing, but if not the DM can always provide a steady stream of potions, it is nice to have a "face" but you can just not ask for a persuasion check if you want the request to succeed to progress the story and so on.
Having said that 2 1/2 casters in a group of 4 is more than enough, bards are great for support and artificers are pretty good so I don't see a problem their. If their is something missing I would say it is a wis based character, for example the party might get ambushed quite a bit as they fail to notice things but that can be handled. The most important thing is each player has a character they will enjoy playing.
I wouldn't be concerned about the armorer, it is one of the weaker subclasses, at least in a high magic campaign (in a low magic campaign his infusions are likely to be the most powerful items the party has access to) but it is much more effective than an alchemist or a sun soul monk, I am in a campaign with an armorer and we do not have an issue with him being much less effective than the rest of the party. If however you do want to make him a bit more powerful have a look at the UA armorer, this was considered overpowered for example access to the shield spell and unlmited uses of defensive field made the UA armorer very hard to kill. You might want to add one of those.
I think your party balance looks fine. 5e is very forgiving that way.
barbarian, artificer, bard, and either divine soul sorc or rogue/warlock
Armorer artificer really shines in a low magic campaign and when they reach level 9 gaining 2 extra infusions they can apply only to their armor and the haste spell. With con save proficiency and the Mnemonic enhancer infusion it can be more difficult to force them to lose concentration. If they want a high damage focused build they could use the lightning launcher + sharpshooter + haste for three ranged attacks by level 9. They can use the homunculus infusion for a bonus action ranged attack as well. They can also go for more of a tank build with the guardian armor and gauntlets. The gauntlets force the creature hit to attack anyone else at disadvantage. It is one of the few actual "tanking" abilities in 5e that can encourage the target to attack the artificer. Three attacks with haste at level 9 and, depending on DM, combining the thunder gauntlets with the Arcane propulsion armor infusion at level 14 (adding 1d8 force and thrown property to the gauntlets). Opinions vary on whether these stack. Personally, as a DM, I allow it since RAW it seems to work and it is not overpowered considering that a paladin at level 11 gets improved divine smite that adds d8 radiant to every attack - d8 force and thrown property at level 14 isn't a big deal.
Other artificers like the Battlesmith work pretty well too - repeating shot infusion and sharpshooter + steel defender for a bonus action attack.
Artificers also have cure wounds and other healing/support abilities.
College of Elloquence bard is going to dominate any social situations the party encounters plus they have healing spells and a good variety of support spells.
Divine soul sorcerer can have both healing and direct damage/AoE.
However, rogue/warlock can also be a lot of fun though it depends on whether they go mostly rogue or mostly warlock. I have a rogue warlock that went arcane trickster + fey warlock (for story reasons) ... early levels were 3 rogue/2 warlock ... then up to 5 rogue, then they needed a magic bow so went level 3 warlock for blade pact (since he had not yet found a magic bow). The character is now 12 rogue/5 warlock and has been a lot of fun to play even if not the biggest damage dealer. If your player wants to go with sorcerer that's a great idea but if they want to "optimize" a bit, they could consider 3 divine soul sorc/2 hexblade warlock. The armor and weapon proficiencies along with agonizing blast from the warlock are very useful plus it gives them the agonizing blast + quicken agonizing blast option on turns when they want to do a lot of damage.
Thanks for the great answers folks! As a general consensus it appears that my Armorer boy, may be a little bit weaker, especially in a high magic campaign (oops). But we can definitely work around it, I like the idea of the unlimited uses of defensive field (I’ll give it to him at a higher level) and boosting his uses of that at this level. It also appears that we are not the most attentive party with a lack of any Wisdom, so that’s a shame, but it gives me a lot of space to work with, I can do more ambushes and stuff like that.
Members of the Kalashtar Campaign (Bin CHKN, Sidra Aiken, Cobarn, Leiver) Stop reading :D
Hello DMs of the DMing, I want to make sure my party is nice and balanced, so I came here to get some advice from you guys and make sure that we've got all the bases covered. Here is the team!
Star Elf (Homebrew SubRace) Elequence Bard
Aaracokra (No Fly Though) Ancestral Guardian Barbarian
Yuan-Ti Genie Warlock / Rouge (Soon to be a Divine Soul Sorcerer)
Kobold Armorer Artificer (I have nothing to put in this Bracket)
At the moment it looks like a lot of tanking (Ancestral Guardian, Armorer) but our spellcasting is weak, same with support, that's why we're swapping to the Divine Soul Sorcerer, so I hope that covers it all, but I fear I might be missing something?
Thanks for the help!
Seems sorta fine but one character I at least have an issue with is the Artificer. That class is weak enough I give a warning to the player in question and the group as a whole before signing off. It honestly feels like 1/2 of a character, and better suited to being a sidekick or an NPC.
Yeah I feel that too, we're at Level 5 at the moment, any good multiclass reccomendations out of artificer from here?
If you’re committed to Artificer remaining part of the character, maybe Rogue or Wizard? Both benefit from a high intelligence and we can hope the dexterity is average at least. Full admission I am not good for awesome multiclassing. I only hop on the bandwagons of those that are :p
K Thanks!
I think you definitely have enough bases covered there!
Bard is a great and versatile full spellcaster. They have a limited amount of spells to choose, but they are a great caster class with healing, crowd control and buffs. They are also great at skill related checks / situations.
Artificer depends a lot on the subclass. They don't get a ton of damage, but they are well rounded. Armorer is very versatile and useful if the player doesn't mind that there are very limited ways to increase damage output. The damage is OK, but not massive compared to many other classes. Artificer is especially useful if played/allowed to be played creatively. Support, healing, utility, problem solving. High Intelligence and quite SAD. Multiclassing with wizard if you want that extra Pew Pew at the expense of fewer Artificer features. I would recommend using the Spell point variant when multiclassing two casters if allowed. Allows for a more satisfying experience. With slots, you get those bigger slots that you don't have spells for. With spell points you can divide those extra points for low level spells instead.
Barbarian is always strong. You get a lot of strength for your party too. Weak ranged, but that's not really a problem in this party. Artificer can deal solid ranged attacks and you have a Sorlock for insane ranged attacks.
Warlock/rogue/sorcerer - That's a bit widespread. Looks like the player is probably going for a very specific damage build. This or that, a Sorlock will get your party some sick ranged spell damage. The Rogue is surprising and probably quite unnecessary. I know some solid Roguelock builds with pact of the blade and assassin. But they are also going with Sorcerer, so I don't know what they are going for. Of course Rogue is one of the best dip classes out there. You get a lot of value for just 1 level. But here they are also going Sorcerer. Warlock and sorcerer use a different source of spell resources, so they don't stack. For example a Bard and a Sorcerer combo would get you pretty much the same amount of slots as a single class caster, but with lower level spells. Sorlock gets you those Pact slots that refresh with a short rest and those spellcasting slots that refresh on a long rest. Sorlocks are insanely strong when built right, but they are very widespread already. So the rogue seems a bit of a stretch in that regard. But it might be some super optimized build that I've just never heard of. :) If the player is new, then I'd warn them that such comboes can be quite tiring/boring to level up until they reach that sweet spot. A lot of their progress is delayed, so they'll be stuck in Groundhog day, going through those low level features over and over again. And if you are new as a DM and looking for that balance, then I'd look into this build specifically.
Warlocks get the Eldritch Blast cantrip, which shoots separate Force beams. These are all considered separate attacks. So with the right Invocation, you add your Cha modifier to each. You can combine this with Hex for an additional d8 for each beam. As a sorcerer you get Quickened Spell for double Eldritch Blast. So with an 18 charisma, at level 5 you could do 4d10+4d8+16 damage in one turn. Not going further into detail, but there are even more options for insane damage optimization here. :)
This reply turned out longer than I thought. But to sum up:
Your party is very strong IMO. But it doesn't have to be. DnD is very forgiving in this sense, depending a lot on the DM. You will probably end up having to make some modifications to the difficulty anyways. In this case you might have to increase the difficulty, I don't know the campaign in question. But if you almost always have to slide the difficulty slider anyways, then it's also ok to reduce the difficulty if your party wants to play a less optimized group. This is of course up to the DM. You can go by the book 100% if you want to. But parties are so dramatically different in terms of power that it's oftentimes easier IMO to just take a few sessions to calibrate and then make slight changes to the difficulty based on how strong/weak the party is, so that the encounters will offer a proper challenge. :)
If you want to further improve the versatility of the part, then maybe replace one of the Charisma classes (Bard and Warlock) with a Wisdom class. Bard is a utility/support class, so to keep the role the same, maybe replace Bard with a Cleric or a Druid.
I hope this was helpful.
Cheers!
Finland GMT/UTC +2
This is a gorgeous reply thank you very much! Just a quick note (sorry I didn't make it clear); My Rouge/Warlock Player is currently a Rougelock, but isn't having fun and changing over entirely to Divine Soul Sorcerer(erer). And I think that just balances it out a little better. Anyways Thank you so so much!
Ah, that makes sense!
Well a Divine Soul Sorcerer can be a Spell Damage Cannon like any other Sorcerer build, if it wants to, but also an insanely good combat healer / buffer with Twinned Spell, so even more than before, you have everything covered. :)
Finland GMT/UTC +2
5e is very forgiving concerning balance, a party probably want access to healing, but if not the DM can always provide a steady stream of potions, it is nice to have a "face" but you can just not ask for a persuasion check if you want the request to succeed to progress the story and so on.
Having said that 2 1/2 casters in a group of 4 is more than enough, bards are great for support and artificers are pretty good so I don't see a problem their. If their is something missing I would say it is a wis based character, for example the party might get ambushed quite a bit as they fail to notice things but that can be handled. The most important thing is each player has a character they will enjoy playing.
I wouldn't be concerned about the armorer, it is one of the weaker subclasses, at least in a high magic campaign (in a low magic campaign his infusions are likely to be the most powerful items the party has access to) but it is much more effective than an alchemist or a sun soul monk, I am in a campaign with an armorer and we do not have an issue with him being much less effective than the rest of the party. If however you do want to make him a bit more powerful have a look at the UA armorer, this was considered overpowered for example access to the shield spell and unlmited uses of defensive field made the UA armorer very hard to kill. You might want to add one of those.
I think your party balance looks fine. 5e is very forgiving that way.
barbarian, artificer, bard, and either divine soul sorc or rogue/warlock
Armorer artificer really shines in a low magic campaign and when they reach level 9 gaining 2 extra infusions they can apply only to their armor and the haste spell. With con save proficiency and the Mnemonic enhancer infusion it can be more difficult to force them to lose concentration. If they want a high damage focused build they could use the lightning launcher + sharpshooter + haste for three ranged attacks by level 9. They can use the homunculus infusion for a bonus action ranged attack as well. They can also go for more of a tank build with the guardian armor and gauntlets. The gauntlets force the creature hit to attack anyone else at disadvantage. It is one of the few actual "tanking" abilities in 5e that can encourage the target to attack the artificer. Three attacks with haste at level 9 and, depending on DM, combining the thunder gauntlets with the Arcane propulsion armor infusion at level 14 (adding 1d8 force and thrown property to the gauntlets). Opinions vary on whether these stack. Personally, as a DM, I allow it since RAW it seems to work and it is not overpowered considering that a paladin at level 11 gets improved divine smite that adds d8 radiant to every attack - d8 force and thrown property at level 14 isn't a big deal.
Other artificers like the Battlesmith work pretty well too - repeating shot infusion and sharpshooter + steel defender for a bonus action attack.
Artificers also have cure wounds and other healing/support abilities.
College of Elloquence bard is going to dominate any social situations the party encounters plus they have healing spells and a good variety of support spells.
Divine soul sorcerer can have both healing and direct damage/AoE.
However, rogue/warlock can also be a lot of fun though it depends on whether they go mostly rogue or mostly warlock. I have a rogue warlock that went arcane trickster + fey warlock (for story reasons) ... early levels were 3 rogue/2 warlock ... then up to 5 rogue, then they needed a magic bow so went level 3 warlock for blade pact (since he had not yet found a magic bow). The character is now 12 rogue/5 warlock and has been a lot of fun to play even if not the biggest damage dealer. If your player wants to go with sorcerer that's a great idea but if they want to "optimize" a bit, they could consider 3 divine soul sorc/2 hexblade warlock. The armor and weapon proficiencies along with agonizing blast from the warlock are very useful plus it gives them the agonizing blast + quicken agonizing blast option on turns when they want to do a lot of damage.
Thanks for the great answers folks! As a general consensus it appears that my Armorer boy, may be a little bit weaker, especially in a high magic campaign (oops). But we can definitely work around it, I like the idea of the unlimited uses of defensive field (I’ll give it to him at a higher level) and boosting his uses of that at this level. It also appears that we are not the most attentive party with a lack of any Wisdom, so that’s a shame, but it gives me a lot of space to work with, I can do more ambushes and stuff like that.
Thanks again everyone :)
(Edit: I can grammar I swear)