I want to give my Emerald Dragon more of a selection of spells, using the wizard guideline, compared to just simple set of spells that's listed in Fizban. What level of a wizard spells would a Adult Dragon have. The only source that I have found through my research said, level 9 spells as dragons live 100s of years, allowing them plenty of time to learn. But, I would be afraid that might be too powerful if the party wants to fight the dragon, they are lower level of 5, but there's 8 players.
Look up the Variant: Dragons as Spellcasters box in the Monster Manual. You can add stuff beyond that, but you're now getting into custom monster territory.
If you are referring to the actual lores and also materials from older generations, you will be surprised to find out most dragons (famous and named ones) have learnt spells beyond level 10......
Consider the fact that Level 9 spells are already near the PEAK of all humanity, giving one to an adult dragon is not an issue. You are the DM after all. What you have to reconsider is:
1. Are your players expecting a challenge of that difficulty?
2. Do you intend to kill your players as the climax?
3. Have you considered adjusting the HP, AC & dmg etc. accordingly to your players' party?
4. Have you playtested how Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistance affect the outcome of the encounter?
5. Are there any ways for the party to get out if they choose not to confront via force?
6. Do the party have enough dmg and tools in hands to battle such powerful foe?
If you have considered everything, and every question has a reasonable and sounded answer, then go ahead and make the final call.
Just in case, if most of your players can survive a 12d8 Breath attack (96 HP at max and I kid you not, I have seen a DM rolled above 90 twice in a row), do throw a dragon at them. If not...yeah, the end point is wiping them out, right? SEND IN THE DRAGON. If nope, then you can throw something else in for the party. There are tons of choices.
(Before the worst case scenario, dragons are smart, so they will line up the breath attack against as many people as possible; OFC, they can fly as well...and 2d6+6//2d8+6 might seem like small numbers per turn, but they have Legendary Actions too; 19 AC is considered to be really high and unless your players are rolling high...; Frightened is a terrible condition against a foe that has to be taken down fast, if many players get Frightened, it's gonna get rough)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Personal Signature should be creative and original:
Game: DD 5e
Group preferred: On the line
Experience: 4 yrs or so.
Location/Timezone: Iseikai Time//EMT (Emilia-tan), but not MIT.
Availability: When I sign up, I know I should be free.
Preferred role: Player. But honestly, I am into serious relationship.
Current Edition Dragon’s got screwed out of their prior role of jointly being powerful sorcerers, probably for the best though. The one exception I have to that is the Green Dragon, with their depressingly weak and easily reduced breath weapon. I think my own idea had been to have the Dragon’s I gave spellcaster classes to have levels one or two beneath their CR and it honestly worked out for me. If you don’t go that way, the official material basically grants them a very few spells three times per day max, as per the dragon variety in question. It’s really next to useless.
I'd recommend go looking up dragon types in the (online) forgotten realms wiki, there is a section of abilities for each, that give you an idea which spells dragons could cast. It's mostly older editions stuff, some might not have an equivalent in 5e, but for inspiration, it's great. And it's free.
One thing to keep in mind is that any dragon without at least Misty Step or some other teleport spell will die to low level adventurers. Sickening Radiance (4th level spell - 7th level caster) + Wall of Force (5th level spell - 9th level caster) creates a situation where the dragon is very likely to die if they can't teleport to escape.
Lore wise, every dragon would know about this vulnerability and since dragons are all extremely intelligent, one would expect them to have developed some counter measure to prevent even weak adventurers from killing them off for ingredients even if it is just developing a minimal spell casting ability.
As a result, in any world I run, every adult dragon is very likely to have access to some sort of teleportation magic either via a spell or a magic item.
One thing to keep in mind is that any dragon without at least Misty Step or some other teleport spell will die to low level adventurers. Sickening Radiance (4th level spell - 7th level caster) + Wall of Force (5th level spell - 9th level caster) creates a situation where the dragon is very likely to die if they can't teleport to escape.
Lore wise, every dragon would know about this vulnerability and since dragons are all extremely intelligent, one would expect them to have developed some counter measure to prevent even weak adventurers from killing them off for ingredients even if it is just developing a minimal spell casting ability.
As a result, in any world I run, every adult dragon is very likely to have access to some sort of teleportation magic either via a spell or a magic item.
True, but to be honest, Sickening Radiance from XGtE is totally imbalanced and overpowered, especially for a 4th level spell. Damage over Time for 10 minutes (any other 4th level DoT Spell has a max. of 1 minute) with 30 ft. radius + Exhaustion + Faerie Fire...
I'd either ban this Spell from play, or, as you suggested, give a Dragon a countermeasure against a combo like this. But rather the former than the latter, to still give players the joy of potentially DoT-trapping a Dragon, but not the option to just go nuclear and cheese it to death.
True, but to be honest, Sickening Radiance from XGtE is totally imbalanced and overpowered, especially for a 4th level spell.
Eh, the problem isn't really sickening radiance, the problem is wall of force; it should either have hit points or be severely limited in the shapes it can have.
That Wall of Force can form a hemispherical dome/sphere makes the existence of the level 7 Forcecage Spell pretty much obsolete, and is in comparison dirt-cheap to cast. I'd agree with alternatively limiting the shape (to a flat surface, size xyz?)
It is still my opinion, that Sickening Radiance is OP, but no hill to die on.
That Wall of Force can form a hemispherical dome/sphere makes the existence of the level 7 Forcecage Spell pretty much obsolete, and is in comparison dirt-cheap to cast. I'd agree with alternatively with limiting the shape (to a flat surface, size xyz?)
Forcecage is also a problem spell, though it's main benefit over wall of force is that it doesn't require concentration.
That Wall of Force can form a hemispherical dome/sphere makes the existence of the level 7 Forcecage Spell pretty much obsolete, and is in comparison dirt-cheap to cast. I'd agree with alternatively with limiting the shape (to a flat surface, size xyz?)
Forcecage is also a problem spell, though it's main benefit over wall of force is that it doesn't require concentration.
It can also form a cage twice the radius of the hemisphere/sphere that Wall of Force can, enabling it to trap more or larger enemies.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It can also form a cage twice the radius of the hemisphere/sphere that Wall of Force can, enabling it to trap more or larger enemies.
No it can't. It's a 20' cube, not a 20' radius, so only marginally larger than the 10' radius. The fact that you can shoot arrows through the cage is usually a benefit but probably a hindrance in this particular use case.
A dragon doesn't really need to follow player rules when it comes to spell casting. Doing a full set of slots leads to allot of spells you won't use and having inconsistent damage/ effects as you do different level slots. You also often end up with thematically incoherent creatures that spit out random things because it's the best spell of that level. My advice would be to simply give it a DC equivalent to it's breath weapon for simplicity and some thematic spells that are either at will, once a day or 2/3 times a day.
Once a day spells are like limit breaks there should bet at most one or two and they should be big game changers. Terrain changing spells, major heals, different forms, escape spells.
multiple times a day spells are things you want players to be able to exhaust so typically defenses. counterspell, dispel magic, heals, summons, teleports etc... 2 or 3 uses is typically a fair amount
At will spells are core to the creatures identity. They are a basic part of their attack, movement or defences. For example a particularly quick enemy may be able to teleport once a turn, a defensive enemy may always have an effect like warding wind kept up constantly
Also ask yourself if it should be a spell or spell like ability. The point of making things spells is to allow for vulnerabilities to be created with things like counterspell, dispel magic and breaking concentration. If you don't want those mechanics in play you should make it an ability instead. Often you won't want players to wast their ammo on at will abilities or you won't want a big moment prevented so easily, in those cases don't treat the spell like a spell just take its mechanics and use it like an ability.
Finally keep in mind that spells change the challenge of a monster like any other ability.
If you are worried about things like wall of force my advice is to let the dragon expend a resource to escape whether it be a legendary resistance, use of their breath weapon or a spell that makes sense it doesn't matter. You don't need to always add spell casting just to deal with that.
IMO you can give the dragon whatever spells cast at whatever level you want. Just use the written sources as a guideline. And a dragon certainly should fight intelligently, making the best use of their offensive and defensive abilities.
BUT from what you are saying, this may be a newer party/players. Killing a dragon is what most people see as the ultimate D&D adventure. Is this too early of a point to reach a climax? How do you go on from this adventure? Also, if you do go through with it, a dragon battle should be truly epic and death for at least one character should be very likely. If it isn't difficult and fraught with peril, it is not exciting. If it is easy and victory is a foregone conclusion, why doesn't every villager attack the dragon and take the horde? I certainly would not nerf the dragon just so the party can easily kill it.
Just my two cents.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Velstitzen
I am a 40 something year old physician who DMs for a group of 40 something year old doctors. We play a hybrid game, mostly based on 2nd edition rules with some homebrew and 5E components.
Thank you all for the response that I have been given. From what I have inquired I shall make give the dragon a spells, and a number of spell slots that would be appropriate for what I feel just for this dragon. The players have aligned themselves with the dragon, rather than against it, so I don't have to worry about the fighting him any more
I want to give my Emerald Dragon more of a selection of spells, using the wizard guideline, compared to just simple set of spells that's listed in Fizban. What level of a wizard spells would a Adult Dragon have. The only source that I have found through my research said, level 9 spells as dragons live 100s of years, allowing them plenty of time to learn. But, I would be afraid that might be too powerful if the party wants to fight the dragon, they are lower level of 5, but there's 8 players.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I want to give my Emerald Dragon more of a selection of spells, using the wizard guideline, compared to just simple set of spells that's listed in Fizban. What level of a wizard spells would a Adult Dragon have. The only source that I have found through my research said, level 9 spells as dragons live 100s of years, allowing them plenty of time to learn. But, I would be afraid that might be too powerful if the party wants to fight the dragon, they are lower level of 5, but there's 8 players.
IIRC, there are rules for variant dragons that can cast spells.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Look up the Variant: Dragons as Spellcasters box in the Monster Manual. You can add stuff beyond that, but you're now getting into custom monster territory.
If you are referring to the actual lores and also materials from older generations, you will be surprised to find out most dragons (famous and named ones) have learnt spells beyond level 10......
Consider the fact that Level 9 spells are already near the PEAK of all humanity, giving one to an adult dragon is not an issue. You are the DM after all. What you have to reconsider is:
1. Are your players expecting a challenge of that difficulty?
2. Do you intend to kill your players as the climax?
3. Have you considered adjusting the HP, AC & dmg etc. accordingly to your players' party?
4. Have you playtested how Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistance affect the outcome of the encounter?
5. Are there any ways for the party to get out if they choose not to confront via force?
6. Do the party have enough dmg and tools in hands to battle such powerful foe?
If you have considered everything, and every question has a reasonable and sounded answer, then go ahead and make the final call.
Just in case, if most of your players can survive a 12d8 Breath attack (96 HP at max and I kid you not, I have seen a DM rolled above 90 twice in a row), do throw a dragon at them. If not...yeah, the end point is wiping them out, right? SEND IN THE DRAGON. If nope, then you can throw something else in for the party. There are tons of choices.
(Before the worst case scenario, dragons are smart, so they will line up the breath attack against as many people as possible; OFC, they can fly as well...and 2d6+6//2d8+6 might seem like small numbers per turn, but they have Legendary Actions too; 19 AC is considered to be really high and unless your players are rolling high...; Frightened is a terrible condition against a foe that has to be taken down fast, if many players get Frightened, it's gonna get rough)
Personal Signature should be creative and original:
Game: DD 5e
Group preferred: On the line
Experience: 4 yrs or so.
Location/Timezone: Iseikai Time//EMT (Emilia-tan), but not MIT.
Availability: When I sign up, I know I should be free.
Preferred role: Player. But honestly, I am into serious relationship.
Game style: I don't fill the chat with ooc.
Current Edition Dragon’s got screwed out of their prior role of jointly being powerful sorcerers, probably for the best though. The one exception I have to that is the Green Dragon, with their depressingly weak and easily reduced breath weapon. I think my own idea had been to have the Dragon’s I gave spellcaster classes to have levels one or two beneath their CR and it honestly worked out for me. If you don’t go that way, the official material basically grants them a very few spells three times per day max, as per the dragon variety in question. It’s really next to useless.
I'd recommend go looking up dragon types in the (online) forgotten realms wiki, there is a section of abilities for each, that give you an idea which spells dragons could cast. It's mostly older editions stuff, some might not have an equivalent in 5e, but for inspiration, it's great. And it's free.
One thing to keep in mind is that any dragon without at least Misty Step or some other teleport spell will die to low level adventurers. Sickening Radiance (4th level spell - 7th level caster) + Wall of Force (5th level spell - 9th level caster) creates a situation where the dragon is very likely to die if they can't teleport to escape.
Lore wise, every dragon would know about this vulnerability and since dragons are all extremely intelligent, one would expect them to have developed some counter measure to prevent even weak adventurers from killing them off for ingredients even if it is just developing a minimal spell casting ability.
As a result, in any world I run, every adult dragon is very likely to have access to some sort of teleportation magic either via a spell or a magic item.
True, but to be honest, Sickening Radiance from XGtE is totally imbalanced and overpowered, especially for a 4th level spell. Damage over Time for 10 minutes (any other 4th level DoT Spell has a max. of 1 minute) with 30 ft. radius + Exhaustion + Faerie Fire...
I'd either ban this Spell from play, or, as you suggested, give a Dragon a countermeasure against a combo like this. But rather the former than the latter, to still give players the joy of potentially DoT-trapping a Dragon, but not the option to just go nuclear and cheese it to death.
Eh, the problem isn't really sickening radiance, the problem is wall of force; it should either have hit points or be severely limited in the shapes it can have.
That Wall of Force can form a hemispherical dome/sphere makes the existence of the level 7 Forcecage Spell pretty much obsolete, and is in comparison dirt-cheap to cast. I'd agree with alternatively limiting the shape (to a flat surface, size xyz?)
It is still my opinion, that Sickening Radiance is OP, but no hill to die on.
Forcecage is also a problem spell, though it's main benefit over wall of force is that it doesn't require concentration.
It can also form a cage twice the radius of the hemisphere/sphere that Wall of Force can, enabling it to trap more or larger enemies.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
No it can't. It's a 20' cube, not a 20' radius, so only marginally larger than the 10' radius. The fact that you can shoot arrows through the cage is usually a benefit but probably a hindrance in this particular use case.
Okay, guess just having six times the duration and not requiring concentration are Forcecage's only benefits, then.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If it wasn't going to die in ten minutes it wasn't going to die in an hour either. The fact that it can block teleportation is a benefit, though.
The longer duration is useful if you're not look to kill the target. But that's not relevant to the current discussion.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
A dragon doesn't really need to follow player rules when it comes to spell casting. Doing a full set of slots leads to allot of spells you won't use and having inconsistent damage/ effects as you do different level slots. You also often end up with thematically incoherent creatures that spit out random things because it's the best spell of that level. My advice would be to simply give it a DC equivalent to it's breath weapon for simplicity and some thematic spells that are either at will, once a day or 2/3 times a day.
Also ask yourself if it should be a spell or spell like ability. The point of making things spells is to allow for vulnerabilities to be created with things like counterspell, dispel magic and breaking concentration. If you don't want those mechanics in play you should make it an ability instead. Often you won't want players to wast their ammo on at will abilities or you won't want a big moment prevented so easily, in those cases don't treat the spell like a spell just take its mechanics and use it like an ability.
Finally keep in mind that spells change the challenge of a monster like any other ability.
If you are worried about things like wall of force my advice is to let the dragon expend a resource to escape whether it be a legendary resistance, use of their breath weapon or a spell that makes sense it doesn't matter. You don't need to always add spell casting just to deal with that.
IMO you can give the dragon whatever spells cast at whatever level you want. Just use the written sources as a guideline. And a dragon certainly should fight intelligently, making the best use of their offensive and defensive abilities.
BUT from what you are saying, this may be a newer party/players. Killing a dragon is what most people see as the ultimate D&D adventure. Is this too early of a point to reach a climax? How do you go on from this adventure? Also, if you do go through with it, a dragon battle should be truly epic and death for at least one character should be very likely. If it isn't difficult and fraught with peril, it is not exciting. If it is easy and victory is a foregone conclusion, why doesn't every villager attack the dragon and take the horde? I certainly would not nerf the dragon just so the party can easily kill it.
Just my two cents.
Velstitzen
I am a 40 something year old physician who DMs for a group of 40 something year old doctors. We play a hybrid game, mostly based on 2nd edition rules with some homebrew and 5E components.
Thank you all for the response that I have been given. From what I have inquired I shall make give the dragon a spells, and a number of spell slots that would be appropriate for what I feel just for this dragon. The players have aligned themselves with the dragon, rather than against it, so I don't have to worry about the fighting him any more