Hello I'm a dm that's considering ending a game and I want to know if I'm overreacting or not.I've been running this game for about six months and about two months ago we added a couple after two of our other pcs left. It started out well enough but over the last few weeks they have begun to have more and more issues with the campaign. A brief overview:
They accused me of showing favoritism towards one player and making it the "[player name] show" I feel like I've made an effort to share the focus equally during the game but its true that that one players backstory big bad is shaping up to be a the overall campaign's big bad so I get why they feel that way.
They routinely ask for explanations of my rules over discord during play distracting me from dming.
They objected to my no pvp rule and said that because I allow players to cast aoe spells that hit enemies and allies that that's breaking the pvp rule.
They routinely make jokes about how I'm a "killer dm" (I admit I did find these jokes funny at first and participated in them but now its every week and I find it really frustrating.)
I realize ending a six person group over the actions of just two people is extreme but honestly my interactions with them have completely drained any fun or joy I found in the game and just made the whole experience really anxiety-inducing for me. And even if I just kicked out those two I don't know if I'd have the energy or desire to keep the group going. What should I do?
This is my advice. Others may have a different approach. And, it is advice. Take what seems useful to you from it.
Tell the whole group that you're taking a break for a couple weeks (or even a month). Sit back and think about what you want to do.
Engage with the other four players (out of game obviously) as far their attitude and feelings of the campaign and the problem players.
After talking with four original pcs, make a decision about kicking the two new pcs out. The other option would be to have a conversation with them, and let them know if the bad behavior continues, they'll be removed.
Maybe see if one of remaining four is willing to run a one-shot or short adventure with you as a pc during this break in the campaign.
At the end of the break, make your decision about whether to continue the campaign.
Ultimately, if you're not having fun as the DM then it is not worth continuing the campaign.
1. Seems they cant enjoy or be happy for an other PC in the spotlight, as you also stated you try to give everyone their focus every once in a while. (No x hour long soloplay while the rest fiddles with their mobiles.)
2. Do they not know the general rules or house rules, or do they question your decisions? If you don't jump between results for the same rule(s), tell them, that ruleslawyering is not welcome, you're the DM, it's yours to decide and that is not open for discussion, especially not while the game is running.
3. Thats plainly trying to find a hair in the soup, if all pcs generally try to avoid having other pcs inside of aoe if possible. Friendly fire/collateral damage is not PvP. roleplay wise it could lead to confrontation, which still can be resolved without PvP.
4. I just assume you told them to stop. If you did, it's not trying to be funny, its straight up bullying.
I see many red flags here, take a step back and a deep breath. Nobody is entitled to your time and mental health. If kicking the two disruptive players to the curb isn't enough, because you're just fed up and done with the campaign, it's totally your right to just drop the mic and leave.
Only thing i don't understand is where the rest of your players stand, no support whatever? Just playing Switzerland? Also no reason to continue, imho.
I'm talking with the rest of the group now. It turns out they've been saying worse stuff about me to the rest of the group behind my back which made my mind up to kick them.
I'll do as you say and take a break. I don't know how long before I start up again but its good to finally have some resolution.
CrumbsnBreadly Sorry to hear about your experience, it's not cool to find out they've been talking in your back, such disrespect is no fun.
Talking to your players was the solution, now you can take some time for you away from the game, and let it cool down then make a decision if you give it another try to see if things get better.
So sorry to hear about this, and I'd say you definitely aren't over-reacting but there are some areas that I have picked up on that might offer some extra perspective alongside what people have already mentioned.
Every group I've ever played in or GMd has a different dynamic and players leaving or joining that dynamic can cause it either to spin out or strengthen. I have two campaigns currently that feature myself as GM and two players who are in both games. The remaining three players at each table are entirely different from each other and I had to make clear to the two who were in both campaigns that this would be a different dynamic. I'd guess that both you and your players have picked up on the dynamic shift and it's not one that's being enjoyed. As a theatre director I used to have to look for the leader in my cast. The person who the group would naturally gravitate to. That person becomes quite important in the cast (even if they are a background or small part in the play). So much so that said person leaving can devastate the team spirit. Same can happen easily in TTRPG groups. This is of course, not your fault and not even something in your control. It is important to be aware of however.
@Siyaj_Kak is spot on with suggesting a break is in order. I'd go so far as to say this should be a standard recommendation for all of us. Ensure that every so often you take a week/month off the game to help plan ahead and disconnect from any stress.
I'm not clear based on what you've written but if it's just the two new players. I'd remove them entirely. It could just simply be a case that you aren't the DM for them. We don't all have the same style and some players find some DM styles to be less fun than others. That kind of personality clash is nothing to apologise for of course and can give you a 'high road' way out of situations with players you just don't enjoy playing with.
To be more specific in my answers to your questions though:
1. If they don't like the world you're shaping for the group to storytell in, this isn't the table for them. Remove them from the table. In future you can always make clear in session zero or first sessions with new players (which should act as a new session zero for expectations, rules, safety tools etc.) that sometimes a game isn't going to suit some players. They can always leave.
2. These questions should be asked in public with every one. I know it can be tiresome, but I actually advise encouraging players to ask for rules clarifications in session. Once you've dealt with a rule clarification once in public, throw the decision and rationale into a discord channel for reference in future. The problem with late joiners to a party is that they may not have been present for previous rule clarifications. Of course, that might be a real problem for you but interpreting and adjudicating rules is one of the main jobs of a DM. If the players are questioning a decision once you've publicly ruled on something...well tough luck. After that it's being disruptive.
3. PvP is a difficult one and again sounds like a style clash. I kinda like PvP being an option in some groups. That said it's not for everyone and again, if they don't like that style of gameplay (no PvP) then it's not the game for them. Say goodbye and remove them from the table.
4. If you're not finding something funny (or a player isn't finding a 'joke' funny) you express it publicly to the group. If it persists after that point then it's the end of the line for the 'joker'. I have always been very clear on this, I remove players from the table at the very first sign of discrimination, bullying, or lack of respect for another player. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions. I've run into a few players of late in some games that don't realise that their behaviour has consequences and then have been surprised when I've just outright removed them from the table.
At the end of the day this is a hobby and not a job. Even as someone who made my hobby (acting) a job (running a theatre company) let me tell you, the enjoyment is necessary to keep it up. If you're not enjoying it any more then end the campaign. Maybe try and join a game as player for a while? Maybe run a different system? Maybe start a new group running a specific short campaign (like Lost Mine of Phandelver or Dragon of Icespire Peak)?
Either way if you're not having fun with a game then something's wrong and calling an end to this campaign might be for the best. Only you know what the right move is and you have all the wishes in the world from other DMs who have been through this before. Look after yourself and protect yourself. Think about what will give you the most fun in future.
Just remember: four people is plenty for a dnd campaign. I'd actually say 3-4 is the sweet spot, as things start to get cumbersome the more people you add, and interpersonal drama like this becomes more likely. When you finish your break, consider continuing the game you already have going with the original four players you actually like.
My answer is succinct, being a DM takes a ton of effort, especially if you are writing all your own stuff. I probably prep two hours for each hour of game play. Anyone who deliberately ruins the game (multiple times, intentionally, etc) gets kicked. If that leaves no players left, so be it.
If you have four good players left, re-boot, take a few months off and then enjoy running a much simpler game. (4 >6 players in D&D!!!)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Velstitzen
I am a 40 something year old physician who DMs for a group of 40 something year old doctors. We play a hybrid game, mostly based on 2nd edition rules with some homebrew and 5E components.
If this is run virtually, I personally prefer 5 or 6 people by experience, both because it allows for greater variation of player choices and because I can throw even cooler encounters at them. It also helps when you have the person that regularly shows up late or you have to deal with RL issues that keep people away from the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello I'm a dm that's considering ending a game and I want to know if I'm overreacting or not.I've been running this game for about six months and about two months ago we added a couple after two of our other pcs left. It started out well enough but over the last few weeks they have begun to have more and more issues with the campaign. A brief overview:
They accused me of showing favoritism towards one player and making it the "[player name] show" I feel like I've made an effort to share the focus equally during the game but its true that that one players backstory big bad is shaping up to be a the overall campaign's big bad so I get why they feel that way.
They routinely ask for explanations of my rules over discord during play distracting me from dming.
They objected to my no pvp rule and said that because I allow players to cast aoe spells that hit enemies and allies that that's breaking the pvp rule.
They routinely make jokes about how I'm a "killer dm" (I admit I did find these jokes funny at first and participated in them but now its every week and I find it really frustrating.)
I realize ending a six person group over the actions of just two people is extreme but honestly my interactions with them have completely drained any fun or joy I found in the game and just made the whole experience really anxiety-inducing for me. And even if I just kicked out those two I don't know if I'd have the energy or desire to keep the group going. What should I do?
This is my advice. Others may have a different approach. And, it is advice. Take what seems useful to you from it.
Tell the whole group that you're taking a break for a couple weeks (or even a month). Sit back and think about what you want to do.
Engage with the other four players (out of game obviously) as far their attitude and feelings of the campaign and the problem players.
After talking with four original pcs, make a decision about kicking the two new pcs out. The other option would be to have a conversation with them, and let them know if the bad behavior continues, they'll be removed.
Maybe see if one of remaining four is willing to run a one-shot or short adventure with you as a pc during this break in the campaign.
At the end of the break, make your decision about whether to continue the campaign.
Ultimately, if you're not having fun as the DM then it is not worth continuing the campaign.
From my perspective, feel free to disagree:
1. Seems they cant enjoy or be happy for an other PC in the spotlight, as you also stated you try to give everyone their focus every once in a while. (No x hour long soloplay while the rest fiddles with their mobiles.)
2. Do they not know the general rules or house rules, or do they question your decisions? If you don't jump between results for the same rule(s), tell them, that ruleslawyering is not welcome, you're the DM, it's yours to decide and that is not open for discussion, especially not while the game is running.
3. Thats plainly trying to find a hair in the soup, if all pcs generally try to avoid having other pcs inside of aoe if possible. Friendly fire/collateral damage is not PvP. roleplay wise it could lead to confrontation, which still can be resolved without PvP.
4. I just assume you told them to stop. If you did, it's not trying to be funny, its straight up bullying.
I see many red flags here, take a step back and a deep breath. Nobody is entitled to your time and mental health. If kicking the two disruptive players to the curb isn't enough, because you're just fed up and done with the campaign, it's totally your right to just drop the mic and leave.
Only thing i don't understand is where the rest of your players stand, no support whatever? Just playing Switzerland? Also no reason to continue, imho.
I'm talking with the rest of the group now. It turns out they've been saying worse stuff about me to the rest of the group behind my back which made my mind up to kick them.
I'll do as you say and take a break. I don't know how long before I start up again but its good to finally have some resolution.
CrumbsnBreadly Sorry to hear about your experience, it's not cool to find out they've been talking in your back, such disrespect is no fun.
Talking to your players was the solution, now you can take some time for you away from the game, and let it cool down then make a decision if you give it another try to see if things get better.
So sorry to hear about this, and I'd say you definitely aren't over-reacting but there are some areas that I have picked up on that might offer some extra perspective alongside what people have already mentioned.
Every group I've ever played in or GMd has a different dynamic and players leaving or joining that dynamic can cause it either to spin out or strengthen. I have two campaigns currently that feature myself as GM and two players who are in both games. The remaining three players at each table are entirely different from each other and I had to make clear to the two who were in both campaigns that this would be a different dynamic. I'd guess that both you and your players have picked up on the dynamic shift and it's not one that's being enjoyed. As a theatre director I used to have to look for the leader in my cast. The person who the group would naturally gravitate to. That person becomes quite important in the cast (even if they are a background or small part in the play). So much so that said person leaving can devastate the team spirit. Same can happen easily in TTRPG groups. This is of course, not your fault and not even something in your control. It is important to be aware of however.
@Siyaj_Kak is spot on with suggesting a break is in order. I'd go so far as to say this should be a standard recommendation for all of us. Ensure that every so often you take a week/month off the game to help plan ahead and disconnect from any stress.
I'm not clear based on what you've written but if it's just the two new players. I'd remove them entirely. It could just simply be a case that you aren't the DM for them. We don't all have the same style and some players find some DM styles to be less fun than others. That kind of personality clash is nothing to apologise for of course and can give you a 'high road' way out of situations with players you just don't enjoy playing with.
To be more specific in my answers to your questions though:
1. If they don't like the world you're shaping for the group to storytell in, this isn't the table for them. Remove them from the table. In future you can always make clear in session zero or first sessions with new players (which should act as a new session zero for expectations, rules, safety tools etc.) that sometimes a game isn't going to suit some players. They can always leave.
2. These questions should be asked in public with every one. I know it can be tiresome, but I actually advise encouraging players to ask for rules clarifications in session. Once you've dealt with a rule clarification once in public, throw the decision and rationale into a discord channel for reference in future. The problem with late joiners to a party is that they may not have been present for previous rule clarifications. Of course, that might be a real problem for you but interpreting and adjudicating rules is one of the main jobs of a DM. If the players are questioning a decision once you've publicly ruled on something...well tough luck. After that it's being disruptive.
3. PvP is a difficult one and again sounds like a style clash. I kinda like PvP being an option in some groups. That said it's not for everyone and again, if they don't like that style of gameplay (no PvP) then it's not the game for them. Say goodbye and remove them from the table.
4. If you're not finding something funny (or a player isn't finding a 'joke' funny) you express it publicly to the group. If it persists after that point then it's the end of the line for the 'joker'. I have always been very clear on this, I remove players from the table at the very first sign of discrimination, bullying, or lack of respect for another player. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions. I've run into a few players of late in some games that don't realise that their behaviour has consequences and then have been surprised when I've just outright removed them from the table.
At the end of the day this is a hobby and not a job. Even as someone who made my hobby (acting) a job (running a theatre company) let me tell you, the enjoyment is necessary to keep it up. If you're not enjoying it any more then end the campaign. Maybe try and join a game as player for a while? Maybe run a different system? Maybe start a new group running a specific short campaign (like Lost Mine of Phandelver or Dragon of Icespire Peak)?
Either way if you're not having fun with a game then something's wrong and calling an end to this campaign might be for the best. Only you know what the right move is and you have all the wishes in the world from other DMs who have been through this before. Look after yourself and protect yourself. Think about what will give you the most fun in future.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Just remember: four people is plenty for a dnd campaign. I'd actually say 3-4 is the sweet spot, as things start to get cumbersome the more people you add, and interpersonal drama like this becomes more likely. When you finish your break, consider continuing the game you already have going with the original four players you actually like.
My answer is succinct, being a DM takes a ton of effort, especially if you are writing all your own stuff. I probably prep two hours for each hour of game play. Anyone who deliberately ruins the game (multiple times, intentionally, etc) gets kicked. If that leaves no players left, so be it.
If you have four good players left, re-boot, take a few months off and then enjoy running a much simpler game. (4 >6 players in D&D!!!)
Velstitzen
I am a 40 something year old physician who DMs for a group of 40 something year old doctors. We play a hybrid game, mostly based on 2nd edition rules with some homebrew and 5E components.
If this is run virtually, I personally prefer 5 or 6 people by experience, both because it allows for greater variation of player choices and because I can throw even cooler encounters at them. It also helps when you have the person that regularly shows up late or you have to deal with RL issues that keep people away from the game.