Another thread inspired my curiosity. When it comes to Dukes of Hell, Archdevils, the Lords of the Nine (excluding Asmodeus, obviously), and the whole gamut of Demon Lords, what CR’s would you personally assign? Personally I thought:
CR 23 to CR 25 for Dukes of Hell. Each of them would be at least Legendary and possessing Lairs, while the more powerful would have variants of Mythic status (phases).
Archdevils (meaning those traditionally outside of hells politics but still being considered exemplars of Lawful Evl) would be CR 25 to CR 27, same deal as Dukes of Hell with regards to Legendary, Lairs, and (variant) Mythic statuses.
The Lords of the Nine (those Archdevils at the pinnacle of Lawful Evil fiends that controlled a whole layer of Hell) would be CR 27 to CR 30, capstoned by Beelzebub and Mephistopheles.
Demon Lords would be CR 22 (more powerful than Molydeus but not by much) to CR 30. My opinion is that even Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzt could fit in at the top tier)
All of these creatures would be immortal at CR 25 and up, only able to be killed by special quests along the lines of destroying a Major Artifact.
What about you? All of this predicated on the idea you’d assign any of these fiends a CR. If not, no need to reply.
For the dukes of hell, it would probably be 20 to 25. I believe the lowest CR Duke of hell in 5e is CR 16, but I think they should be more powerful. for lords of the nine, CR 26-30. Zariel and dispater would be 26, mammon, belial, and fierna would be 27, levistus and Glasya 28, then beelzebub and Mephistopheles 29. Asmodeus’ avatar would be CR 30. (I’m pretty sure they’re a god, right?) the demon lords would be anywhere from 20 to 30, or maybe 18 to 30. Since there are so many, they probably vary in power a lot.
One thing that I hated about the two or three official Dukes that were released was how their CR was even lower than a Pit Fiend’s. These are fiends that rule directly beneath a Lord of the Nine, they should definitely be more powerful than CR 20.
At least they have some cool abilities. But yeah, they really shouldn’t have made them such a low CR. The lowest should be 21 or 22. Also, I think they should have had more lords of the nine. I’m pretty sure that in 5e we just have Zariel.
Well, the demon lords we have stats for are mostly CR 23-26; I would expect lords of the nine to be at the high end of that because there are fewer of them than there are demon lords.
I have certain issues with high level play. Somewhere along the line, PC's start engaging enemies I don't feel are actually defeatable. Like, gods being the prime example, but for a fiend that commands a level of the abyss or the like, I feel ... that's no longer something that has stats, that will die if you hit it enough with a sword. That being is a function of the plane itself, it is in a way eternal and everlasting, and while there may be ways to defeat or deceive it, there's no way to kill it.
Like ... either it's a stronger goblin or giant rat - or it's something entirely different. And I don't want planar rulers to be giant rats with improved stats.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well, the demon lords we have stats for are mostly CR 23-26; I would expect lords of the nine to be at the high end of that because there are fewer of them than there are demon lords.
I wouldn't be sure. Most of the arch devils we have are on the low end (cr 18-21) including a few co-lords or competitors. Zariel is cr 26 but she is likely to be on the high end being the most combat focused arch devil.
I'd expect most devils to actually have relatively low CR's compared to the demon lords because devils are focused more on tricks and deals than fighting. An arch devil like Levistus for example is completely incapable of combat and few of the others are known for it either.
The exceptions would be zariel, mephistopheles and asmodeus which are known for magical and combat abilities.
Well, the demon lords we have stats for are mostly CR 23-26; I would expect lords of the nine to be at the high end of that because there are fewer of them than there are demon lords.
I wouldn't be sure. Most of the arch devils we have are on the low end (cr 18-21) including a few co-lords or competitors. Zariel is cr 26 but she is likely to be on the high end being the most combat focused arch devil.
I'd expect most devils to actually have relatively low CR's compared to the demon lords because devils are focused more on tricks and deals than fighting. An arch devil like Levistus for example is completely incapable of combat and few of the others are known for it either.
The exceptions would be zariel, mephistopheles and asmodeus which are known for magical and combat abilities.
So, you believe that the Rulers of Hell should be close to the Pit Fiends in personal power (which they command massive armies of) but with vastly more political authority? How do they handle close allies betraying them? Honestly, for myself, I actually dislike 5e putting any kind of cap on monster CR. You shouldn’t have to separate the Rulers of Hell from their lowly servants by such a meager difference in CR.
Well, the demon lords we have stats for are mostly CR 23-26; I would expect lords of the nine to be at the high end of that because there are fewer of them than there are demon lords.
I wouldn't be sure. Most of the arch devils we have are on the low end (cr 18-21) including a few co-lords or competitors. Zariel is cr 26 but she is likely to be on the high end being the most combat focused arch devil.
I'd expect most devils to actually have relatively low CR's compared to the demon lords because devils are focused more on tricks and deals than fighting. An arch devil like Levistus for example is completely incapable of combat and few of the others are known for it either.
The exceptions would be zariel, mephistopheles and asmodeus which are known for magical and combat abilities.
So, you believe that the Rulers of Hell should be close to the Pit Fiends in personal power (which they command massive armies of) but with vastly more political authority? How do they handle close allies betraying them? Honestly, for myself, I actually dislike 5e putting any kind of cap on monster CR. You shouldn’t have to separate the Rulers of Hell from their lowly servants by such a meager difference in CR.
I imagine its similar to how real world leaders avoid that issue, they have security, they buy allegiances and there are laws. They aren't like demons they didn't merely rise to the top by fighting, they were appointed and there are systems in place that keep them there. A pitfiend no matter how strong couldn't simply become a duke by defeating the existing one like a demon could become a demon prince, they'd have to get enough favor with Asmodeus to be appointed and regardless of who's stronger who ever Asmodeus appoints rules because disobeying Asmodeus will see a devil demoted or cursed.
edit: they also don't command armies of pit fiends. Pit fiends are very high ranked and are closer to members of their court and or generals.
Though that ship has sailed, I’d argue that all the lords of the nine and the top demon princes should be divine tier. Baator and the Abyss are both supposed to be threats to the whole multiverse, and each only having a few gods one their side compared to the hundreds across the worlds doesn’t really sell it in my eyes.
Though that ship has sailed, I’d argue that all the lords of the nine and the top demon princes should be divine tier. Baator and the Abyss are both supposed to be threats to the whole multiverse, and each only having a few gods one their side compared to the hundreds across the worlds doesn’t really sell it in my eyes.
No, that’s fair. I suppose I just miss the 3rd Edition Epic Level Handbook, where you could tie flavor to legitimate rules that allowed you to stat out even Asmodeus (though he himself was just an Avatar of the Overlord of all Hell (that nonetheless would utterly destroy even a well prepared party of level 49s)). I don’t really believe that there should be any level limits in D&D, that you should even be able to get to level 49 (assuming you actually had a decade to spend on a single Campaign). I suppose it’s fair to stat out Dukes of Hell between CR 23 to CR 30 (or something like that) and leave Archdevils and the Lords of the Nine as mostly unassailable Cosmic Entities. There’s just a certain amount of disappointment for my part on that. Simultaneously, the Campaign I’m working on features a Wizard ascended (descended) to Duke of Hell status as the ultimate villain, so this imagining hardly derails my plans.
Edit: Now that I think about it, in Hell there are also the Dark Ministers, 8 Pit Fiends that are Paragons of the Pit Fiend class. They are in charge of all aspects of the Blood War, and while not technically part of the Courtiers of Perdition, wield enormous clout. It would make sense to put them at CR 23 to CR 24, leaving CR 25 to 30 for the Dukes of Hell. That would cut out the worst of the gap between Dukes of Hell, who shouldn’t really be that separated from each other (not including Dukes of Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus).
BTW, for yourself, @Fifinger, do you have a particular Demon Lord you would call the cut off point for where Demon Lords could be fought and where they could not? I imagine that Demon Princes such as Demogorgon, Orcus, Grazzt, Pazuzu, Pale Night, and (depending on how you define her) Lolth would definitely be Cosmic Entities beyond compare.
Though that ship has sailed, I’d argue that all the lords of the nine and the top demon princes should be divine tier. Baator and the Abyss are both supposed to be threats to the whole multiverse, and each only having a few gods one their side compared to the hundreds across the worlds doesn’t really sell it in my eyes.
The distinction between god and fiend is a bit contrived but gods seem to be stronger than fiends pretty universally. That said fiends can be a threat without the demon princes and arch devils being able to solo a god individually.
The abyss is a threat because the demons are infinite and the location itself is cursed so that it's dangerous for gods to enter. Its very much a place that no god really wants to go and the gods/primordials that are there have been banished or trapped there.
Baator is a threat because Asmodeus is a powerful god that has been able to play the other gods against each other and leverage the threat of the abyss for more power. Asomodeus has been able to manipulate many powerful gods including tiamat into his service. Not that any one would want baator any way as it is almost as bad as the abyss
I think if most arch fiends were individually capable of challenging a god many of them would have killed a god and become gods themselves like Asmodeus. The arch dukes of hell in particular are well below gods because many of them are former servants of gods like planetars and solars who haven't really done anything since becoming devils to increase their power. Unless you think Asmodeus is so above every other god that merely by changing to his side the servants of those gods become gods in their own right.
As for the abyss, that's a mixed bag. It does contain some actual gods and primordials but I don't think the demon princes rise to that level. There doesn't seem to have been any potential for Demogorgon to take Lolths layer of the abyss for example. They generally seem to be about the level of a demigods because that's who they are generally described as fighting.
One thing I’ll say is that in D&D, political power is at least partly commensurate with individual physical and/or magical power. You aren’t going to find a king that’s just some CR 0 schmuck.
One thing I’ll say is that in D&D, political power is at least partly commensurate with individual physical and/or magical power. You aren’t going to find a king that’s just some CR 0 schmuck.
The noble is pretty close to that but I get that stories do often analogize different types of power into mystical power or strength. I just also think that the theming of devils is more that they are the brains behind the muscle as opposed to the muscle themselves. Except Zariel, she is a bruiser.
BTW, for yourself, @Fifinger, do you have a particular Demon Lord you would call the cut off point for where Demon Lords could be fought and where they could not? I imagine that Demon Princes such as Demogorgon, Orcus, Grazzt, Pazuzu, Pale Night, and (depending on how you define her) Lolth would definitely be Cosmic Entities beyond compare.
Haven’t come up with any plan about that yet, seeing how that campaigns I’m planning are a modified Ravenloft one where the Dark Powers serve as the biggest bads and one in a custom world pretty separate from the canon lore. My hopefully helpful not-quite-answer is that fighting Orcus (for instance) in the Material Plane is a different experience than fighting him in the Outer Planes, which is different that fighting him in the Abyss, which is different than fighting him in his home layer.
Zariel, (CR 26) seeker of those who yearn to prove their worth on the battlefield and the ruler of Avernus.
Dispater, (CR ?) the possessor of and seeker of secrets and the ruler of Dis, the Iron City.
Consort: Lilith (CR ?) (leader of an organization focused on espionage)
First lieutenant: Titivilus (CR 16) (voice of Dispator)
Mammon, (CR ?) the lord of seeking wealth and ruler of Minauros.
Duke Bael (CR 19)
Belial (judge) (CR ?) and Fierna, (CR ?) the giver of personal influence and the rulers of Phlegethos.
Levistus, (CR ?) is the giver of freedom and safety to the desperate and the ruler of Stygia*.
Geryon (CR 22)
Glasya, (CR ?) master of the manipulation and circumventing of the law and ruled of Malbolge.
Moloch (CR 21) Previous ruler of Malbolge
Baalzebul (prosecutor), (CR ?) is the giver of restoration of lost status or the recovery of resources that were lost because of treachery or incompetence and the ruler of Maladomini.
Mephistopheles, (CR ?) the lord of curiosity and ambition (seeker of arcane secrets) and the ruler of Cania.
Hutijin, (CR 21) a duke of Cania
Asmodeus, (CR ?) lord of all devils and ruler of Nessus.
Geryon, (CR 22) the lord of superior strength and great physical prowess. The archdevil Geryon constantly struggles with Levistus for the rule of Stygia.*
The Seven Demon Lords
Demogorgon, (CR 26) the Prince of Demons, the Sibilant Beast, and Master of the Spiraling Depths.
Orcus, (CR 26) the Prince of Undeath, known as the Blood Lord, lord of necromancers.
Graz’zt, (CR 24) the Dark Prince of Pleasure.
Yeenoghu, (CR 24) the Gnoll Lord.
Baphomet, (CR 23) the Horned King, and the Prince of Beasts, the great hunter.
Fraz-Urb’luu, (CR 23) the Prince of Deception and Demon Lord of Illusions.
Zuggtmoy, (CR 23) Queen of Fungi, Lady of Rot, and Decay.
Juiblex, (CR 23) lord of slime and ooze.
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My World Anvil account if you're interested. Work in progress.
Another thread inspired my curiosity. When it comes to Dukes of Hell, Archdevils, the Lords of the Nine (excluding Asmodeus, obviously), and the whole gamut of Demon Lords, what CR’s would you personally assign? Personally I thought:
All of these creatures would be immortal at CR 25 and up, only able to be killed by special quests along the lines of destroying a Major Artifact.
What about you? All of this predicated on the idea you’d assign any of these fiends a CR. If not, no need to reply.
For the dukes of hell, it would probably be 20 to 25. I believe the lowest CR Duke of hell in 5e is CR 16, but I think they should be more powerful. for lords of the nine, CR 26-30. Zariel and dispater would be 26, mammon, belial, and fierna would be 27, levistus and Glasya 28, then beelzebub and Mephistopheles 29. Asmodeus’ avatar would be CR 30. (I’m pretty sure they’re a god, right?) the demon lords would be anywhere from 20 to 30, or maybe 18 to 30. Since there are so many, they probably vary in power a lot.
One thing that I hated about the two or three official Dukes that were released was how their CR was even lower than a Pit Fiend’s. These are fiends that rule directly beneath a Lord of the Nine, they should definitely be more powerful than CR 20.
At least they have some cool abilities. But yeah, they really shouldn’t have made them such a low CR. The lowest should be 21 or 22. Also, I think they should have had more lords of the nine. I’m pretty sure that in 5e we just have Zariel.
Well, the demon lords we have stats for are mostly CR 23-26; I would expect lords of the nine to be at the high end of that because there are fewer of them than there are demon lords.
I have certain issues with high level play. Somewhere along the line, PC's start engaging enemies I don't feel are actually defeatable. Like, gods being the prime example, but for a fiend that commands a level of the abyss or the like, I feel ... that's no longer something that has stats, that will die if you hit it enough with a sword. That being is a function of the plane itself, it is in a way eternal and everlasting, and while there may be ways to defeat or deceive it, there's no way to kill it.
Like ... either it's a stronger goblin or giant rat - or it's something entirely different. And I don't want planar rulers to be giant rats with improved stats.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I wouldn't be sure. Most of the arch devils we have are on the low end (cr 18-21) including a few co-lords or competitors. Zariel is cr 26 but she is likely to be on the high end being the most combat focused arch devil.
I'd expect most devils to actually have relatively low CR's compared to the demon lords because devils are focused more on tricks and deals than fighting. An arch devil like Levistus for example is completely incapable of combat and few of the others are known for it either.
The exceptions would be zariel, mephistopheles and asmodeus which are known for magical and combat abilities.
So, you believe that the Rulers of Hell should be close to the Pit Fiends in personal power (which they command massive armies of) but with vastly more political authority? How do they handle close allies betraying them? Honestly, for myself, I actually dislike 5e putting any kind of cap on monster CR. You shouldn’t have to separate the Rulers of Hell from their lowly servants by such a meager difference in CR.
I imagine its similar to how real world leaders avoid that issue, they have security, they buy allegiances and there are laws. They aren't like demons they didn't merely rise to the top by fighting, they were appointed and there are systems in place that keep them there. A pitfiend no matter how strong couldn't simply become a duke by defeating the existing one like a demon could become a demon prince, they'd have to get enough favor with Asmodeus to be appointed and regardless of who's stronger who ever Asmodeus appoints rules because disobeying Asmodeus will see a devil demoted or cursed.
edit: they also don't command armies of pit fiends. Pit fiends are very high ranked and are closer to members of their court and or generals.
Though that ship has sailed, I’d argue that all the lords of the nine and the top demon princes should be divine tier. Baator and the Abyss are both supposed to be threats to the whole multiverse, and each only having a few gods one their side compared to the hundreds across the worlds doesn’t really sell it in my eyes.
No, that’s fair. I suppose I just miss the 3rd Edition Epic Level Handbook, where you could tie flavor to legitimate rules that allowed you to stat out even Asmodeus (though he himself was just an Avatar of the Overlord of all Hell (that nonetheless would utterly destroy even a well prepared party of level 49s)). I don’t really believe that there should be any level limits in D&D, that you should even be able to get to level 49 (assuming you actually had a decade to spend on a single Campaign). I suppose it’s fair to stat out Dukes of Hell between CR 23 to CR 30 (or something like that) and leave Archdevils and the Lords of the Nine as mostly unassailable Cosmic Entities. There’s just a certain amount of disappointment for my part on that. Simultaneously, the Campaign I’m working on features a Wizard ascended (descended) to Duke of Hell status as the ultimate villain, so this imagining hardly derails my plans.
Edit: Now that I think about it, in Hell there are also the Dark Ministers, 8 Pit Fiends that are Paragons of the Pit Fiend class. They are in charge of all aspects of the Blood War, and while not technically part of the Courtiers of Perdition, wield enormous clout. It would make sense to put them at CR 23 to CR 24, leaving CR 25 to 30 for the Dukes of Hell. That would cut out the worst of the gap between Dukes of Hell, who shouldn’t really be that separated from each other (not including Dukes of Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus).
BTW, for yourself, @Fifinger, do you have a particular Demon Lord you would call the cut off point for where Demon Lords could be fought and where they could not? I imagine that Demon Princes such as Demogorgon, Orcus, Grazzt, Pazuzu, Pale Night, and (depending on how you define her) Lolth would definitely be Cosmic Entities beyond compare.
The distinction between god and fiend is a bit contrived but gods seem to be stronger than fiends pretty universally. That said fiends can be a threat without the demon princes and arch devils being able to solo a god individually.
I think if most arch fiends were individually capable of challenging a god many of them would have killed a god and become gods themselves like Asmodeus. The arch dukes of hell in particular are well below gods because many of them are former servants of gods like planetars and solars who haven't really done anything since becoming devils to increase their power. Unless you think Asmodeus is so above every other god that merely by changing to his side the servants of those gods become gods in their own right.
As for the abyss, that's a mixed bag. It does contain some actual gods and primordials but I don't think the demon princes rise to that level. There doesn't seem to have been any potential for Demogorgon to take Lolths layer of the abyss for example. They generally seem to be about the level of a demigods because that's who they are generally described as fighting.
One thing I’ll say is that in D&D, political power is at least partly commensurate with individual physical and/or magical power. You aren’t going to find a king that’s just some CR 0 schmuck.
The noble is pretty close to that but I get that stories do often analogize different types of power into mystical power or strength. I just also think that the theming of devils is more that they are the brains behind the muscle as opposed to the muscle themselves. Except Zariel, she is a bruiser.
Haven’t come up with any plan about that yet, seeing how that campaigns I’m planning are a modified Ravenloft one where the Dark Powers serve as the biggest bads and one in a custom world pretty separate from the canon lore. My hopefully helpful not-quite-answer is that fighting Orcus (for instance) in the Material Plane is a different experience than fighting him in the Outer Planes, which is different that fighting him in the Abyss, which is different than fighting him in his home layer.
According to the books:
Devils
The Seven Demon Lords
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Chains of Asmodeus does have stats for the 9, though even though it's published by Wizards it probably isn't authoritative