I'm planning a heavily alternate campaign where magic is not accessible to most people. Very few people are born with some unrefined magic (sorcerers essentially). I will be using spell points instead of spell slots. Because of this, there are no magical classes, even sorcerers. A fighter born with magic will have to train their magic to be more potent at it, at the expense of their martial prowess. So on.
With that out of the way, the main question is I wish to have more creative freedom for my players to pick non-magical classes and subclasses, but there aren't many of those options, not that I'm aware of. My original thought is that Fighter Battle-Master is likely the best non magical class and subclass due to the sheer quantity of maneuvers that can customize a fighter's flourish or brutality, and because of this, that also prompted these ideas: -Success rates of attacks are based on the description, the type of attack, the type of weapon, the target's armor / counterattack.
-Certain weapons are less effective against certain armors (I.E. chain is good against slashing, not good against piercing. Padded or leather is good against bludgeoning, not slashing, etc)
-Locational damage and armor determines effectiveness of attacks, with a crude lingering-injury system, which is also based on the description of the attack. Injuring an arm might give disadvantage on attacks with that arm and lifting is reduced or whatever. Locational armor is less about suits of armor that you can buy, but pieces of armor that add a small bonus to AC, and the more armor pieces you have, the higher AC you have. An alternative version of this is each piece of armor has a certain AC that only applies to whatever limb it's attached to, and you roll to hit that specific limb. Since magic items don't really exist, higher quality armor has more durability and is more effective in combat or something.
Other rules I was considering adding that weren't specifically related to the alternative rules mentioned above: -Short rest 8 hours, long rest 24 hours -Long rest only in a safe location -To use the help action to aid a skill check, proficiency is required -Reroll initiative after every round (for more randomness and unpredictability in combat) -When a creature takes a critical hit, they make a Con Save or be injured. If the attacker was hidden, the target has disadvantage (or fails automatically) on the save (ties into the rudimentary injury system above) -I like the idea of Camp Supplies from Baldur's Gate 3 -Critical flubs (like a crossbow bolt getting jammed) -Durability for equipment
All of this is just an attempt to create a realistic while still immersive and engaging experience for my party so they think before they swing. It will reward careful planning in combat, heavier armored opponents will actually be challenging to defeat, inventory will be important to think about while not critically tracking every little detail. Now, if you read this far thank you, and I have the following questions: -What sorts of non magical classes and subclasses can my players pick besides battlemaster fighter? -What do you think of these rulings and how might I improve them (or add to them) -Are there any more realistic rules I can utilize?
Thank you!
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Prometheus doesn't get his liver eaten every day for you to ignore the allure of arson.
Depending on how you want to flavor some aspects and the level of technology you are interested in:
Artificer
Alchemist (Flavoring their magic and infusions as chemistry and technology)
Artillerist (Technology based)
Battle Smith (Technology based)
Barbarian
Paths of the Battlerager, Berserker, and Juggernaut are the least "magical" and can be written off as natural in scope.
Fighter
Battle Master, Caviler, Champion, and Samurai all are pretty basic.
Gunslinger could account a slightly higher technology setting with pistols or muskets.
Monk
Ways of the Drunken Master, Kensei, Mercy, Open Hand, and Long Death could be concepted as more traditional martial arts with fantasy tinge, but little to no real magic.
Ranger
Beast Master and Hunter could be fine if you found a way for them to use the spell slots/points for less magical purposes.
Rogue
Assassin, Inquisitive, Mastermind, Scout, Swashbuckler, and Thief all are solid non-magic options.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
All of this is just an attempt to create a realistic while still immersive and engaging experience for my party so they think before they swing. It will reward careful planning in combat, heavier armored opponents will actually be challenging to defeat, inventory will be important to think about while not critically tracking every little detail. Now, if you read this far thank you, and I have the following questions: -What sorts of non magical classes and subclasses can my players pick besides battlemaster fighter? -What do you think of these rulings and how might I improve them (or add to them) -Are there any more realistic rules I can utilize?
Thank you!
Outside of the classes listed above, I'm generally wary when folks try to pile on many new subsystems in an attempt to force fantasy to conform more to their view of "realism." If your players are all cool with that, then go for it I guess, but the idea of realism sort of falls apart unless everyone is buying in and can also handle the forced dissonance of being held to a realistic standard while also having to contend with a zombie horde or a dragon. That's not to say that this can't be done, just that it requires special attention.
Personally, I would look to subtract extra rules rather than add them. Anything that would slow down the pace of a game like tracking durability or very slow healing, I would avoid. There is a reason in stories, films, and other content that a lot of the travel and general upkeep is consigned to montages or social campfire scenes. But yeah, I'd examine your list and consider how each change will bog down the flow of your game. If it slows things down (like every turn initiative) then I'd cut it. If it fits in the flow and makes playing more interesting (like additional affects on crits), then I would explore that space more. Just make sure the options don't slow things down, but instead open new narrative doors that the players may not have needed to consider before.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
-Success rates of attacks are based on the description, the type of attack, the type of weapon, the target's armor / counterattack.
-Certain weapons are less effective against certain armors (I.E. chain is good against slashing, not good against piercing. Padded or leather is good against bludgeoning, not slashing, etc)
-Locational damage and armor determines effectiveness of attacks, with a crude lingering-injury system, which is also based on the description of the attack. Injuring an arm might give disadvantage on attacks with that arm and lifting is reduced or whatever. Locational armor is less about suits of armor that you can buy, but pieces of armor that add a small bonus to AC, and the more armor pieces you have, the higher AC you have. An alternative version of this is each piece of armor has a certain AC that only applies to whatever limb it's attached to, and you roll to hit that specific limb. Since magic items don't really exist, higher quality armor has more durability and is more effective in combat or something.
for your sanity, maybe just hand out inspiration or give in-the-moment advantage to attacks that show critical thinking. if you get into the nitty gritty of armor you'll find that everything is leather and padded already, just sometimes a little metal on top. in a similar vein, look at the lowly skeleton: vulnerable to bludgeoning damage, but is there really less 'bludgeoning' force behind a 5-lbs sword or axe than a 5-lbs mace? how long does it take for the sword to lose it's edge? will you pause combat to clarify whether a person is on their back foot from the last swing or if the press of battle has limited their options to using only the weapon's haft? way, way more flexible to just describe hits and misses (as handed down by the dice) with that sort of flavor. the character can be concerned with keeping an edge on their weapon and wet bowstrings and whether they'd prefer to remove gloves for a better grip... all of that they can mention, worry over, and suffer through without mechanical bonus. the table i think you're going to enjoy working with most is living the moment, not counting the '+1's.
also, you really don't want to encourage every one to always aim for the eyes, legs, etc constantly. actual combat training aims for the big center-mass torso for a reason. same with asking them if they remembered to armor their big toe and not just their knee or whatever. just describe great rolls as being more amazing narratively. keep the damage and THAC0 normal or you'll find yourself second guessing and changing systems and making exceptions and the plausibility of the world will begin to pale.
-Short rest 8 hours, long rest 24 hours
-Long rest only in a safe location
riffing off gritty realism rest variant? sure. make certain players are okay with that first. also, be sure the pace of the game (which you control!) doesn't beat the players down with too many back-to-back battles (or at least save that for a climax) to the point that they won't spend spell slots for fear of never again having a chance to rest or whatever. also, think about introducing some out-of-combat herbalism kit usage that replicates healing in exchange for a chance at exhaustion. of course, then you'll be handing out way more exhaustion and therefore need to adjust your 'short' rests to cure additional exhaustion... and who knows what that's going to affect down the line. well meaning changes to the rules can cause you headaches or make you look like you're making up things as you go. careful with that!
-To use the help action to aid a skill check, proficiency is required
absolutely. just be sure you bring it up in session zero.
-Reroll initiative after every round (for more randomness and unpredictability in combat)
-Durability for equipment
again, take care of your sanity, friend. DMG has some great rules about how some things could adjust initiative score for the round because they're quick or slow and that's great. but rerolling each time? likely painful. and also removes tactics from the players hands.
durability is something you can narrate for simple things like tents and bedrolls. it leaves you open to people buying and cherishing new items or high quality items that are just (again, narratively) better. no need to give someone a bonus for better quality of sleep or shinier vambraces. let the story tell them what to do and encourage everyone to live in the story rather than meta-game the most frugal life the player (not the character) deems sufficient. it'll really add to the ambiance of the game for the players to start thinking of these things voluntarily rather than because a mechanism told them to. also saves you from having to stop the game to ask for everyone's homework or keeping the sock durability spreadsheet yourself.
-When a creature takes a critical hit, they make a Con Save or be injured. If the attacker was hidden, the target has disadvantage (or fails automatically) on the save (ties into the rudimentary injury system above)
-Critical flubs (like a crossbow bolt getting jammed)
critical failures are definitely fun narratively, but maybe draw the line at failures that cause damage to the player. especially at lower levels! you'll be light on healing and rests so more injuries aren't needed on top of losing one's turn.
You have several good ideas here, but one particularly horrible idea.
The horrible idea is to do more than one of these good ideas.
Minimal magic? Great. Go for it. But that alone is a huge major change. Putting in anything else not related to this is beyond ambitious, it is outright stupid. Magic is a huge part of the game that has taken decades to craft. Just accounting for healing salves etc. (which will be needed) alone is going to be a ton of trouble.
You may be a great game master. You could craft a great non-magic game. Or 'fix' the armor system. Or put in a hit location system. etc. etc. But each will require playtesting and fixes, you won't get it right the first time. I guarantee you each change you make will require some updates, just as D&D has errata. But if you change the armor system and the hit location system and the magic system, there will likely be a point where you cannot tell which change is causing the problems.
It is possible to build a skyscraper without using steel. An architectural genius could definitely do it. But only a moron would try to do it without steel, glass, concrete, or copper all at once. Instead, the real genius would build his first two buildings without steel, and only then try to take out glass, etc. etc.
I strongly advise you to pick ONE major change, implement it, play it for at least six months, and fix the problems BEFORE you try to then change other things.
I'll be the one to say it - if you want to do this kind of campaign, you're better off playing a different system. You could homebrew and balance it to make it work, but 5e isn't really designed to be constrained like that.
EDIT: I didn't even read beyond your saying there was no magic initially but after having done so: what you're proposing is a system that will slow down combat significantly with the amount of rules and crunch you're adding. Realism is great when it's easy to implement, but there's a reason people suspend disbelief in these kinds of games.
I'll be the one to say it - if you want to do this kind of campaign, you're better off playing a different system. You could homebrew and balance it to make it work, but 5e isn't really designed to be constrained like that.
I didn't want to be the one to say it.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I'll be the one to say it - if you want to do this kind of campaign, you're better off playing a different system. You could homebrew and balance it to make it work, but 5e isn't really designed to be constrained like that.
I didn't want to be the one to say it.
I would've said it had I seen this thread before now.
OP, looking at your desires, you should take a serious look at GURPS. It's much more in alignment with what you want than D&D is.
Okay so in hindsight from these posts, I have learned quite a lot. I also have a clarifying statement that my players have asked me for a more realistic campaign, as all of them enjoy survival and thinking n stuff for some reason I'm not just throwing my players into a super difficult world I promise. Anyway, here is my takeaway:
-I greatly appreciated the idea of not adding rules that slow down the game, and instead adding rules that add to the game. So the random initiative is gonna go, I'll take a gander at other initiative systems, and might not even use any of them.
-I think I'm going to do a low-tech campaign, and I also don't think any of my players enjoy artificer, so that shouldn't be problematic.
-I have long experienced damaging critical flubs, and I know that they are debilitating more often than humorous. So more just halts for critical flubs, like the crossbow bolt jam, or perhaps a chip in the blade or something, just small things, it depends on context. I dont really know how to turn this idea into content because it really depends on the context of what the flub is centered on, but regardless.
-I recognize that 5E isn't designed for constraints and that there are other RPG systems I can use but respectfully nah, I spent too long learning 5E I don't really wanna invest more time learning a new one. I recognize this is probably a bad idea and is stemmed on laziness, but I do appreciate the advice
-I am quite a fan of a more advanced equipment and armor system, and a few players of mine were interested in the idea when I proposed it, but I think perhaps locational damage will be more simplified or contextual than an actual rule system. Like if they roll a critical hit and describe that they swing their warhammer sideways, I might reward their crit and the enemy now has an injured arm or whatever.
The main take away: I'm gonna playtest these rules individually, probably with a ton of one shots or smaller campaign, or use rulesets that have been playtested. One at a time, and if they land well, I'll put a few of them together.
I really appreciate all of your input and I hope I can actually implement all of your tips and advice to make this campaign better :D
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Prometheus doesn't get his liver eaten every day for you to ignore the allure of arson.
Locational damage and a lack of magical healing sounds like a recipe for problems. The player hurts a goblin’s arm, no big deal, that goblin had a predicted life span of 3-5 rounds the instant it sprang into being. A PCs gets a lingering injury with no way to heal it, they’re screwed — your fighter’s sword arm gets knocked out of commission, now what does the character do? And these injuries will quickly add up. I’d at least look at enhanced uses of the medicine skill or healers kits or both.
Generally the ideas you have for combat, armor, AC etc. are going to make combat take much longer, but im gessing you already knew that. One thing to consider is dumping initiative altogether, This Allows the party to come up with better strategy during combat as they are not restricted to who goes when. The basic idea is Party Turn vs Bad-Guys Turn. This works something like, “it is the parties turn” “you each have an action, a bonus action, and your PCs movement” “what would the party like to do” this is very good at keeping everyone engaged through the entire round of combat. I can provide more info on that style of combat if it interest you. As far a classes go I would look at some third-party classes and subclasses. RAW martial classes are very limited.
Something that might be useful to you is a hit location dice. I have a hit location d12 that is very handy.
Locational damage and a lack of magical healing sounds like a recipe for problems. The player hurts a goblin’s arm, no big deal, that goblin had a predicted life span of 3-5 rounds the instant it sprang into being. A PCs gets a lingering injury with no way to heal it, they’re screwed — your fighter’s sword arm gets knocked out of commission, now what does the character do? And these injuries will quickly add up. I’d at least look at enhanced uses of the medicine skill or healers kits or both.
if my choice was was...
table A where combat optimization was the norm and every battle must be deadly to keep everyone engaged -- OR -- table B with players who spent their power budget roundly and combat encounters are easy or medium challenge with the risk that serious injury might turn the next battle deadly
...i'd hands-down take table B. besides the drama of a bad crit, 'lingering injuries' might be a way to keep combat from becoming samey in a medium difficulty encounter. if your sword arm gets hurt, maybe consider shoving with your shield arm or flanking with the help action. not something you'd normally volunteer to do at a combat focused table. alternatively, in a pinch it could essentially be a narratively interesting exhaustion: temporary downside, can be cured, maybe only affecting some actions. and even in a low-magic setting you'll have a side quest to find that magic spring that can regrow fingers and fix that limp. getting to experience something the common folk rarely see? neat. and in session zero you might set a rule that some armors or shields (or helmets!) counter lingering injuries (although maybe a limited number of times) which allows an 'out' for players who don't prefer this system.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
-I recognize that 5E isn't designed for constraints and that there are other RPG systems I can use but respectfully nah, I spent too long learning 5E I don't really wanna invest more time learning a new one. I recognize this is probably a bad idea and is stemmed on laziness, but I do appreciate the advice
I totally get this feeling; I've said nearly the same thing before. Here's what I learned when I tried to do a 5e mod of similar scale to what you're describing: you will do so much more work trying to build your idea inside 5e than you would do just learning a different system. You also risk burning yourself out on the game because of the sheer friction between the system you're working with and the idea you're trying to implement. Besides; by the time you cut more than half the class options, significantly alter the combat mechanics, and build at least one major mechanic from scratch... Are you actually playing 5e any more in a meaningful sense?
If nothing else, would recommend at least looking into systems like Torchbearer or Forbidden Lands and seeing if there's anything you can borrow for your mod. There's a pay-what-you-want Indie game called Endure that I've also heard is good for survival mechanics. Legend of Five Rings has a great system for damage to specific body parts, and honestly D&D 3.5 does all right with its Called Shots system. Looking at other TTRPGs can be extremely beneficial to your game design skills, even if you end up still playing modified 5e. I wish you the best of luck in conquering this very ambitious project.
Locational damage and a lack of magical healing sounds like a recipe for problems. The player hurts a goblin’s arm, no big deal, that goblin had a predicted life span of 3-5 rounds the instant it sprang into being. A PCs gets a lingering injury with no way to heal it, they’re screwed — your fighter’s sword arm gets knocked out of commission, now what does the character do? And these injuries will quickly add up. I’d at least look at enhanced uses of the medicine skill or healers kits or both.
I did think about this and I think that this problem is what I want the players to suffer with. They need to think about what and when they fight, and be very careful in planning. I also do plan to use some form of advanced medical system with more than just a medicine check or whatever and a bunch of other medical supplies that everyone can learn, from the fighter to the rogue.
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Prometheus doesn't get his liver eaten every day for you to ignore the allure of arson.
Locational damage and a lack of magical healing sounds like a recipe for problems. The player hurts a goblin’s arm, no big deal, that goblin had a predicted life span of 3-5 rounds the instant it sprang into being. A PCs gets a lingering injury with no way to heal it, they’re screwed — your fighter’s sword arm gets knocked out of commission, now what does the character do? And these injuries will quickly add up. I’d at least look at enhanced uses of the medicine skill or healers kits or both.
I did think about this and I think that this problem is what I want the players to suffer with. They need to think about what and when they fight, and be very careful in planning. I also do plan to use some form of advanced medical system with more than just a medicine check or whatever and a bunch of other medical supplies that everyone can learn, from the fighter to the rogue.
Then the big thing, of course, is to make sure the players understand all that. I’d also suggest checking in after a few sessions to make sure everyone is still having fun. If the wizard’s hand was damaged, and they can’t cast spells, it can be cool for a little while to solve the problem. If it keeps happening, it just gets annoying. And it’s a fine line to walk. Make healing a lingering injury too hard and it gets really frustrating for a player whose character can’t function properly. Make it too easy, and it’s just a speed bump that becomes kind of pointless.
in the DMG theirs a guide to diffrent flavors of fantasy, one of wich is the wuxia. this is like bruce lee movies in dnd basically. it suggests reweriting spells to be displays of martial prowwess. a teleporttation spell is just you jumping up a wall. magic missile is some crazy throwing knife skills. i would disallow some spells using this system, like fireball or wish, but it gives players more freedom than just rouge, fighter, barb, and monk. also 4e(i know you hate it, but lets hear what it has to say) had a class called a warlord, wich was battlemaster fighter as a full class. food for thought
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I'm planning a heavily alternate campaign where magic is not accessible to most people. Very few people are born with some unrefined magic (sorcerers essentially). I will be using spell points instead of spell slots. Because of this, there are no magical classes, even sorcerers. A fighter born with magic will have to train their magic to be more potent at it, at the expense of their martial prowess. So on.
With that out of the way, the main question is I wish to have more creative freedom for my players to pick non-magical classes and subclasses, but there aren't many of those options, not that I'm aware of. My original thought is that Fighter Battle-Master is likely the best non magical class and subclass due to the sheer quantity of maneuvers that can customize a fighter's flourish or brutality, and because of this, that also prompted these ideas: -Success rates of attacks are based on the description, the type of attack, the type of weapon, the target's armor / counterattack.
-Certain weapons are less effective against certain armors (I.E. chain is good against slashing, not good against piercing. Padded or leather is good against bludgeoning, not slashing, etc)
-Locational damage and armor determines effectiveness of attacks, with a crude lingering-injury system, which is also based on the description of the attack. Injuring an arm might give disadvantage on attacks with that arm and lifting is reduced or whatever. Locational armor is less about suits of armor that you can buy, but pieces of armor that add a small bonus to AC, and the more armor pieces you have, the higher AC you have. An alternative version of this is each piece of armor has a certain AC that only applies to whatever limb it's attached to, and you roll to hit that specific limb. Since magic items don't really exist, higher quality armor has more durability and is more effective in combat or something.
Other rules I was considering adding that weren't specifically related to the alternative rules mentioned above: -Short rest 8 hours, long rest 24 hours -Long rest only in a safe location -To use the help action to aid a skill check, proficiency is required -Reroll initiative after every round (for more randomness and unpredictability in combat) -When a creature takes a critical hit, they make a Con Save or be injured. If the attacker was hidden, the target has disadvantage (or fails automatically) on the save (ties into the rudimentary injury system above) -I like the idea of Camp Supplies from Baldur's Gate 3 -Critical flubs (like a crossbow bolt getting jammed) -Durability for equipment
All of this is just an attempt to create a realistic while still immersive and engaging experience for my party so they think before they swing. It will reward careful planning in combat, heavier armored opponents will actually be challenging to defeat, inventory will be important to think about while not critically tracking every little detail. Now, if you read this far thank you, and I have the following questions: -What sorts of non magical classes and subclasses can my players pick besides battlemaster fighter? -What do you think of these rulings and how might I improve them (or add to them) -Are there any more realistic rules I can utilize?
Thank you!
TL;DR - Take a look at the 3rd & 4th Edition and AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbooks (many PDFs available free online) they might spark some thoughts and you'll get a clearer idea of other mechanisms that you could use...in fact one of those systems might work a lot better than 5th Ed.
Personally, I'd take a look at earlier editions. This is where D&D Beyond could have been a really powerful resource for monetising stuff that no longer get monetised (and therefore would give a win to players and WotC) - they should load up prior editions and allow folks to have the option to purchase them for play on DDB.
Previous editions might well help you to see what has been dropped and what has been developed in D&D's history. My instinctual answer to your question was 'play a different game system'. But you might be able to achieve what you're looking for with the aid of earlier editions. The 1978 books (and this is from hazy memory) are fairly low magic having player characters rely essentially on magic items to bridge the magical divide. It even has something that the modern DMG should not have lost - sound and smell range of PCs. Quiet movement could be heard for like 30 foot, heavy armour caused that to be 90 foot. Honorable mentions to Old School Essentials and Castles and Crusades though for really thinking through their classes and making them feel distinct as opposed to the jumble of identies that 5e classes have. The downside here is that most of the older systems make 5e look like the cheap knock-off fisher price version of an RPG where the text attempts to be more simplified and easier to understand.
My first system was AD&D (2e) and to my mind still ranks as a really solid system (with the exception of THAC0) that I'd recommend checking into. The theme of the last few decades to my mind is the designers of D&D giving tons of player options at a massive cost to the challenge and distinct flavour of the classes - that's a personal assessment however, I know many who disagree. The better way to phrase it then is on a spectrum from Super Hero to Mere mortal, where do you want your player characters to be? This is, I think a misunderstood thing that earlier editions framed characters as mere mortals (able to cross the entire spectrum), but even a level one PC in 5e is very definitely a super hero in terms of abilities. Other RPG systems make this explicit - FATE makes it clear, the assumption is that characters are capable and resourceful...they're on the super hero end. Blades in the Dark meanwhile, you're painfully mortal right the way through your journey which is why it's so punishing.
I'm planning a heavily alternate campaign where magic is not accessible to most people. Very few people are born with some unrefined magic (sorcerers essentially). I will be using spell points instead of spell slots. Because of this, there are no magical classes, even sorcerers. A fighter born with magic will have to train their magic to be more potent at it, at the expense of their martial prowess. So on.
With that out of the way, the main question is I wish to have more creative freedom for my players to pick non-magical classes and subclasses, but there aren't many of those options, not that I'm aware of. My original thought is that Fighter Battle-Master is likely the best non magical class and subclass due to the sheer quantity of maneuvers that can customize a fighter's flourish or brutality, and because of this, that also prompted these ideas:
-Success rates of attacks are based on the description, the type of attack, the type of weapon, the target's armor / counterattack.
-Certain weapons are less effective against certain armors (I.E. chain is good against slashing, not good against piercing. Padded or leather is good against bludgeoning, not slashing, etc)
-Locational damage and armor determines effectiveness of attacks, with a crude lingering-injury system, which is also based on the description of the attack. Injuring an arm might give disadvantage on attacks with that arm and lifting is reduced or whatever. Locational armor is less about suits of armor that you can buy, but pieces of armor that add a small bonus to AC, and the more armor pieces you have, the higher AC you have. An alternative version of this is each piece of armor has a certain AC that only applies to whatever limb it's attached to, and you roll to hit that specific limb. Since magic items don't really exist, higher quality armor has more durability and is more effective in combat or something.
Other rules I was considering adding that weren't specifically related to the alternative rules mentioned above:
-Short rest 8 hours, long rest 24 hours
-Long rest only in a safe location
-To use the help action to aid a skill check, proficiency is required
-Reroll initiative after every round (for more randomness and unpredictability in combat)
-When a creature takes a critical hit, they make a Con Save or be injured. If the attacker was hidden, the target has disadvantage (or fails automatically) on the save (ties into the rudimentary injury system above)
-I like the idea of Camp Supplies from Baldur's Gate 3
-Critical flubs (like a crossbow bolt getting jammed)
-Durability for equipment
All of this is just an attempt to create a realistic while still immersive and engaging experience for my party so they think before they swing. It will reward careful planning in combat, heavier armored opponents will actually be challenging to defeat, inventory will be important to think about while not critically tracking every little detail. Now, if you read this far thank you, and I have the following questions:
-What sorts of non magical classes and subclasses can my players pick besides battlemaster fighter?
-What do you think of these rulings and how might I improve them (or add to them)
-Are there any more realistic rules I can utilize?
Thank you!
Prometheus doesn't get his liver eaten every day for you to ignore the allure of arson.
Depending on how you want to flavor some aspects and the level of technology you are interested in:
Artificer
Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Ranger
Rogue
Outside of the classes listed above, I'm generally wary when folks try to pile on many new subsystems in an attempt to force fantasy to conform more to their view of "realism." If your players are all cool with that, then go for it I guess, but the idea of realism sort of falls apart unless everyone is buying in and can also handle the forced dissonance of being held to a realistic standard while also having to contend with a zombie horde or a dragon. That's not to say that this can't be done, just that it requires special attention.
Personally, I would look to subtract extra rules rather than add them. Anything that would slow down the pace of a game like tracking durability or very slow healing, I would avoid. There is a reason in stories, films, and other content that a lot of the travel and general upkeep is consigned to montages or social campfire scenes. But yeah, I'd examine your list and consider how each change will bog down the flow of your game. If it slows things down (like every turn initiative) then I'd cut it. If it fits in the flow and makes playing more interesting (like additional affects on crits), then I would explore that space more. Just make sure the options don't slow things down, but instead open new narrative doors that the players may not have needed to consider before.
for your sanity, maybe just hand out inspiration or give in-the-moment advantage to attacks that show critical thinking. if you get into the nitty gritty of armor you'll find that everything is leather and padded already, just sometimes a little metal on top. in a similar vein, look at the lowly skeleton: vulnerable to bludgeoning damage, but is there really less 'bludgeoning' force behind a 5-lbs sword or axe than a 5-lbs mace? how long does it take for the sword to lose it's edge? will you pause combat to clarify whether a person is on their back foot from the last swing or if the press of battle has limited their options to using only the weapon's haft? way, way more flexible to just describe hits and misses (as handed down by the dice) with that sort of flavor. the character can be concerned with keeping an edge on their weapon and wet bowstrings and whether they'd prefer to remove gloves for a better grip... all of that they can mention, worry over, and suffer through without mechanical bonus. the table i think you're going to enjoy working with most is living the moment, not counting the '+1's.
also, you really don't want to encourage every one to always aim for the eyes, legs, etc constantly. actual combat training aims for the big center-mass torso for a reason. same with asking them if they remembered to armor their big toe and not just their knee or whatever. just describe great rolls as being more amazing narratively. keep the damage and THAC0 normal or you'll find yourself second guessing and changing systems and making exceptions and the plausibility of the world will begin to pale.
riffing off gritty realism rest variant? sure. make certain players are okay with that first. also, be sure the pace of the game (which you control!) doesn't beat the players down with too many back-to-back battles (or at least save that for a climax) to the point that they won't spend spell slots for fear of never again having a chance to rest or whatever. also, think about introducing some out-of-combat herbalism kit usage that replicates healing in exchange for a chance at exhaustion. of course, then you'll be handing out way more exhaustion and therefore need to adjust your 'short' rests to cure additional exhaustion... and who knows what that's going to affect down the line. well meaning changes to the rules can cause you headaches or make you look like you're making up things as you go. careful with that!
absolutely. just be sure you bring it up in session zero.
again, take care of your sanity, friend. DMG has some great rules about how some things could adjust initiative score for the round because they're quick or slow and that's great. but rerolling each time? likely painful. and also removes tactics from the players hands.
durability is something you can narrate for simple things like tents and bedrolls. it leaves you open to people buying and cherishing new items or high quality items that are just (again, narratively) better. no need to give someone a bonus for better quality of sleep or shinier vambraces. let the story tell them what to do and encourage everyone to live in the story rather than meta-game the most frugal life the player (not the character) deems sufficient. it'll really add to the ambiance of the game for the players to start thinking of these things voluntarily rather than because a mechanism told them to. also saves you from having to stop the game to ask for everyone's homework or keeping the sock durability spreadsheet yourself.
injuries? sure.
critical failures are definitely fun narratively, but maybe draw the line at failures that cause damage to the player. especially at lower levels! you'll be light on healing and rests so more injuries aren't needed on top of losing one's turn.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
You have several good ideas here, but one particularly horrible idea.
The horrible idea is to do more than one of these good ideas.
Minimal magic? Great. Go for it. But that alone is a huge major change. Putting in anything else not related to this is beyond ambitious, it is outright stupid. Magic is a huge part of the game that has taken decades to craft. Just accounting for healing salves etc. (which will be needed) alone is going to be a ton of trouble.
You may be a great game master. You could craft a great non-magic game. Or 'fix' the armor system. Or put in a hit location system. etc. etc. But each will require playtesting and fixes, you won't get it right the first time. I guarantee you each change you make will require some updates, just as D&D has errata. But if you change the armor system and the hit location system and the magic system, there will likely be a point where you cannot tell which change is causing the problems.
It is possible to build a skyscraper without using steel. An architectural genius could definitely do it. But only a moron would try to do it without steel, glass, concrete, or copper all at once. Instead, the real genius would build his first two buildings without steel, and only then try to take out glass, etc. etc.
I strongly advise you to pick ONE major change, implement it, play it for at least six months, and fix the problems BEFORE you try to then change other things.
I'll be the one to say it - if you want to do this kind of campaign, you're better off playing a different system. You could homebrew and balance it to make it work, but 5e isn't really designed to be constrained like that.
EDIT: I didn't even read beyond your saying there was no magic initially but after having done so: what you're proposing is a system that will slow down combat significantly with the amount of rules and crunch you're adding. Realism is great when it's easy to implement, but there's a reason people suspend disbelief in these kinds of games.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I didn't want to be the one to say it.
I would've said it had I seen this thread before now.
OP, looking at your desires, you should take a serious look at GURPS. It's much more in alignment with what you want than D&D is.
Okay so in hindsight from these posts, I have learned quite a lot. I also have a clarifying statement that my players have asked me for a more realistic campaign, as all of them enjoy survival and thinking n stuff for some reason I'm not just throwing my players into a super difficult world I promise. Anyway, here is my takeaway:
-I greatly appreciated the idea of not adding rules that slow down the game, and instead adding rules that add to the game. So the random initiative is gonna go, I'll take a gander at other initiative systems, and might not even use any of them.
-I think I'm going to do a low-tech campaign, and I also don't think any of my players enjoy artificer, so that shouldn't be problematic.
-I have long experienced damaging critical flubs, and I know that they are debilitating more often than humorous. So more just halts for critical flubs, like the crossbow bolt jam, or perhaps a chip in the blade or something, just small things, it depends on context. I dont really know how to turn this idea into content because it really depends on the context of what the flub is centered on, but regardless.
-I recognize that 5E isn't designed for constraints and that there are other RPG systems I can use but respectfully nah, I spent too long learning 5E I don't really wanna invest more time learning a new one. I recognize this is probably a bad idea and is stemmed on laziness, but I do appreciate the advice
-I am quite a fan of a more advanced equipment and armor system, and a few players of mine were interested in the idea when I proposed it, but I think perhaps locational damage will be more simplified or contextual than an actual rule system. Like if they roll a critical hit and describe that they swing their warhammer sideways, I might reward their crit and the enemy now has an injured arm or whatever.
The main take away:
I'm gonna playtest these rules individually, probably with a ton of one shots or smaller campaign, or use rulesets that have been playtested. One at a time, and if they land well, I'll put a few of them together.
I really appreciate all of your input and I hope I can actually implement all of your tips and advice to make this campaign better :D
Prometheus doesn't get his liver eaten every day for you to ignore the allure of arson.
Locational damage and a lack of magical healing sounds like a recipe for problems. The player hurts a goblin’s arm, no big deal, that goblin had a predicted life span of 3-5 rounds the instant it sprang into being.
A PCs gets a lingering injury with no way to heal it, they’re screwed — your fighter’s sword arm gets knocked out of commission, now what does the character do? And these injuries will quickly add up. I’d at least look at enhanced uses of the medicine skill or healers kits or both.
Generally the ideas you have for combat, armor, AC etc. are going to make combat take much longer, but im gessing you already knew that. One thing to consider is dumping initiative altogether, This Allows the party to come up with better strategy during combat as they are not restricted to who goes when. The basic idea is Party Turn vs Bad-Guys Turn. This works something like, “it is the parties turn” “you each have an action, a bonus action, and your PCs movement” “what would the party like to do” this is very good at keeping everyone engaged through the entire round of combat. I can provide more info on that style of combat if it interest you. As far a classes go I would look at some third-party classes and subclasses. RAW martial classes are very limited.
Something that might be useful to you is a hit location dice. I have a hit location d12 that is very handy.
if my choice was was...
table A where combat optimization was the norm and every battle must be deadly to keep everyone engaged -- OR -- table B with players who spent their power budget roundly and combat encounters are easy or medium challenge with the risk that serious injury might turn the next battle deadly
...i'd hands-down take table B. besides the drama of a bad crit, 'lingering injuries' might be a way to keep combat from becoming samey in a medium difficulty encounter. if your sword arm gets hurt, maybe consider shoving with your shield arm or flanking with the help action. not something you'd normally volunteer to do at a combat focused table. alternatively, in a pinch it could essentially be a narratively interesting exhaustion: temporary downside, can be cured, maybe only affecting some actions. and even in a low-magic setting you'll have a side quest to find that magic spring that can regrow fingers and fix that limp. getting to experience something the common folk rarely see? neat. and in session zero you might set a rule that some armors or shields (or helmets!) counter lingering injuries (although maybe a limited number of times) which allows an 'out' for players who don't prefer this system.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I totally get this feeling; I've said nearly the same thing before. Here's what I learned when I tried to do a 5e mod of similar scale to what you're describing: you will do so much more work trying to build your idea inside 5e than you would do just learning a different system. You also risk burning yourself out on the game because of the sheer friction between the system you're working with and the idea you're trying to implement. Besides; by the time you cut more than half the class options, significantly alter the combat mechanics, and build at least one major mechanic from scratch... Are you actually playing 5e any more in a meaningful sense?
If nothing else, would recommend at least looking into systems like Torchbearer or Forbidden Lands and seeing if there's anything you can borrow for your mod. There's a pay-what-you-want Indie game called Endure that I've also heard is good for survival mechanics. Legend of Five Rings has a great system for damage to specific body parts, and honestly D&D 3.5 does all right with its Called Shots system. Looking at other TTRPGs can be extremely beneficial to your game design skills, even if you end up still playing modified 5e. I wish you the best of luck in conquering this very ambitious project.
I did think about this and I think that this problem is what I want the players to suffer with. They need to think about what and when they fight, and be very careful in planning. I also do plan to use some form of advanced medical system with more than just a medicine check or whatever and a bunch of other medical supplies that everyone can learn, from the fighter to the rogue.
Prometheus doesn't get his liver eaten every day for you to ignore the allure of arson.
Then the big thing, of course, is to make sure the players understand all that.
I’d also suggest checking in after a few sessions to make sure everyone is still having fun. If the wizard’s hand was damaged, and they can’t cast spells, it can be cool for a little while to solve the problem. If it keeps happening, it just gets annoying.
And it’s a fine line to walk. Make healing a lingering injury too hard and it gets really frustrating for a player whose character can’t function properly. Make it too easy, and it’s just a speed bump that becomes kind of pointless.
in the DMG theirs a guide to diffrent flavors of fantasy, one of wich is the wuxia. this is like bruce lee movies in dnd basically. it suggests reweriting spells to be displays of martial prowwess. a teleporttation spell is just you jumping up a wall. magic missile is some crazy throwing knife skills. i would disallow some spells using this system, like fireball or wish, but it gives players more freedom than just rouge, fighter, barb, and monk. also 4e(i know you hate it, but lets hear what it has to say) had a class called a warlord, wich was battlemaster fighter as a full class. food for thought
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TL;DR - Take a look at the 3rd & 4th Edition and AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbooks (many PDFs available free online) they might spark some thoughts and you'll get a clearer idea of other mechanisms that you could use...in fact one of those systems might work a lot better than 5th Ed.
Personally, I'd take a look at earlier editions. This is where D&D Beyond could have been a really powerful resource for monetising stuff that no longer get monetised (and therefore would give a win to players and WotC) - they should load up prior editions and allow folks to have the option to purchase them for play on DDB.
Previous editions might well help you to see what has been dropped and what has been developed in D&D's history. My instinctual answer to your question was 'play a different game system'. But you might be able to achieve what you're looking for with the aid of earlier editions. The 1978 books (and this is from hazy memory) are fairly low magic having player characters rely essentially on magic items to bridge the magical divide. It even has something that the modern DMG should not have lost - sound and smell range of PCs. Quiet movement could be heard for like 30 foot, heavy armour caused that to be 90 foot. Honorable mentions to Old School Essentials and Castles and Crusades though for really thinking through their classes and making them feel distinct as opposed to the jumble of identies that 5e classes have. The downside here is that most of the older systems make 5e look like the cheap knock-off fisher price version of an RPG where the text attempts to be more simplified and easier to understand.
My first system was AD&D (2e) and to my mind still ranks as a really solid system (with the exception of THAC0) that I'd recommend checking into. The theme of the last few decades to my mind is the designers of D&D giving tons of player options at a massive cost to the challenge and distinct flavour of the classes - that's a personal assessment however, I know many who disagree. The better way to phrase it then is on a spectrum from Super Hero to Mere mortal, where do you want your player characters to be? This is, I think a misunderstood thing that earlier editions framed characters as mere mortals (able to cross the entire spectrum), but even a level one PC in 5e is very definitely a super hero in terms of abilities. Other RPG systems make this explicit - FATE makes it clear, the assumption is that characters are capable and resourceful...they're on the super hero end. Blades in the Dark meanwhile, you're painfully mortal right the way through your journey which is why it's so punishing.
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