I wonder if bosses should have multiple phases. Like in video games.
On the plus side: I think it would be so cool to have your boss when he drops to half HP to suddenly roar or do some other thing then become even crazier.
On the bad side: your players may have a hard time defeating a second boss basically. I mean they have already used alot of their recourses fighting the first phase.
So would it be too difficult to have multiple boss phases or would it be cooler than difficult?
Thank you in advance for feedback
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"When at first you don't succeed. Try and try again" Story of my life.
Nicknamed 'doppleganger' by AnnoyedCecealia. given title: that guy! by drummer. lol XD
wishing to live. whispering wind. falling through sky. knowing i died. falling. dying... slowly......
It's somewhat doable. Back in the 4th Ed era monsters had a "bloodied" condition hat triggered when they were at half or less HP, and some solo monsters have abilities and powers that turned on when they crossed that threshold. Using that design principle to change up how a monster does things when it hits 50% health would somewhat fulfill your needs.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Lots of monsters haves something like this. Typically they are described as abilities that activate on "Death". Look for thinks called Mythic Actions.
Example from the Aspect of Bahamut:
Platinum Brilliance (Recharges after a Short or Long Rest).
If the aspect would be reduced to 0 hit points, his current hit point total instead resets to 500 hit points, he recharges his Breath Weapon, and he regains any expended uses of Legendary Resistance. Additionally, the aspect can now use the options in the "Mythic Actions" section for 1 hour. Award a party an additional 155,000 XP (310,000 XP total) for defeating the aspect of Bahamut after his Platinum Brilliance activates.
mythic actions are cool, but homebrew. for- like level 20+ characters, consider Saga Actions(i just made this up) for things way beyond mythical. when they drop to 0 hit points the SECOND time, the Saga Actions become active. the more they use said actons, the more powerful they become.
the turrasque, goes super sayin for mythical, and then after that... their bite attacks deal progesssively more damage, at the cost of hit points
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Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
They are mostly found in Fitzban's Treasury of Dragons. A couple more are found in the Theros book, as well as a single CR 10 creature from the guide to Ravenloft (Dullahan).
So when we talk about phases there are a few different things.
1) A dynamic stat block that changes based on certain condition. A dynamic stat block doesn't necessarily increase the difficulty as it doesn't always add more health and changes can be side grades, upgrades or even down grades.
2) Damage gating where the monsters health is prevented from decreasing too much at one time either by resetting at some point. This increases difficulty by improving survivability and is functionally like adding hit points. In the case of a reset it can be like putting the same whole monster again.
3) Damage windows where a monster has specific times it can be damaged creating invulnerable and vulnerable phases. This really depends on the specifics but basically it allows for a mix of challenges. For example there could be a phase where players need to complete a puzzle, destroy minions ect..
Mythic and multiple stat block like Auril and bahamut include both dynamic stat block changes and health resets so significantly increase difficulty. Its like adding whole new monsters to the fight and you should consider difficulty as the sum of those phases. Where as if it doesn't get a new health bar the difficulty is likely closer to the average of the phases.
Mythic and multiple stat block like Auril and bahamut include both dynamic stat block changes and health resets so significantly increase difficulty. Its like adding whole new monsters to the fight and you should consider difficulty as the sum of those phases. Where as if it doesn't get a new health bar the difficulty is likely closer to the average of the phases.
That's kinda what I was thinking with the "down side" of having multiple phases.
Lots of monsters haves something like this. Typically they are described as abilities that activate on "Death". Look for thinks called Mythic Actions.
Example from the Aspect of Bahamut:
Platinum Brilliance (Recharges after a Short or Long Rest).
If the aspect would be reduced to 0 hit points, his current hit point total instead resets to 500 hit points, he recharges his Breath Weapon, and he regains any expended uses of Legendary Resistance. Additionally, the aspect can now use the options in the "Mythic Actions" section for 1 hour. Award a party an additional 155,000 XP (310,000 XP total) for defeating the aspect of Bahamut after his Platinum Brilliance activates.
Yeah I saw that. I think that's exactly my idea.
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"When at first you don't succeed. Try and try again" Story of my life.
Nicknamed 'doppleganger' by AnnoyedCecealia. given title: that guy! by drummer. lol XD
wishing to live. whispering wind. falling through sky. knowing i died. falling. dying... slowly......
They are mostly found in Fitzban's Treasury of Dragons. A couple more are found in the Theros book, as well as a single CR 10 creature from the guide to Ravenloft (Dullahan).
i knew that, sorry if it came off like i was saying they were homebrew. "mythic actions are cool. but consdier homebrew" is waht i was trying to get across
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Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Easy enough to give a high level Boss a 2 stage fight. Shapechange. The party fights a fairly high CR Dragon, and on the killing blow, it morphs into a potent spellcaster. I'd use it without hesitation, if I felt the party stood a reasonable chance of success. Especially if you see them blowing their "Big Stuff" on the dragon aspect of the encounter. Simple, easily copied by the party if one of them had the spell, so not an "unfair" tactic. Great way to convince the party to spend a load of resources then face a second, just as dangerous threat.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
You should check out "Rime of the Frostmaiden" as well. Auril has 3 forms - 'the Cold Crone', 'the Brittle Maiden' and 'the Queen of Frozen Tears'. You can get an idea from this Beyond article here.
The simple way of handling a staged boss fight is "when monster X is defeated, spawn monster Y"; if you're tracking xp budgets, just add the stages together (you don't even need to have a single monster every phase -- nothing wrong with one monster splitting into multiple, or multiple merging into one). This doesn't really require any homebrew, it's just encounter design. The main drawback is that you wind up with a hit point pool which is large relative to the monster's damage output, meaning a fight that's still beatable may be something of a slog. This typically isn't a problem for a two stage fight, you frequently want a boss fight to last relatively long, but can be a problem for a multi-stage fight. For example, a reasonable staged boss fight at level 10 might be that you have a cult worshiping an evil statue, which is a actually a stone golem. When the PCs overcome the stone golem, the earth in the cave where the statue was located rises and forms into a clay golem. When that goes down, the true villain, a dao, appears. That's a beatable boss fight at level 10 (it's 18,100 xp, or 50% of the daily budget for 4 PCs), but the PCs will have to beat through 498 total hit points, which will not be fast.
The easy fix is to reduce monster hit points (assume half hp = half xp value for budget), increase monster damage (x2 damage = x2 xp budget), or both. For example, in the above example I might give the boss one legendary action that's usable for slam, fist, or maul (+50% damage output) and then halve the hit points of the second and third stages (total hit points reduced to 329), noting that the creature 'looks already wounded' or something.
An advantage to staged fights is that it makes it really easy for the DM to fudge if the fight is too easy or too hard: the players don't know what the stages are, so you can just change the later stages depending on how they do on the earlier stages.
I wonder if bosses should have multiple phases. Like in video games.
On the plus side: I think it would be so cool to have your boss when he drops to half HP to suddenly roar or do some other thing then become even crazier.
On the bad side: your players may have a hard time defeating a second boss basically. I mean they have already used alot of their recourses fighting the first phase.
So would it be too difficult to have multiple boss phases or would it be cooler than difficult?
Thank you in advance for feedback
"When at first you don't succeed. Try and try again" Story of my life.
Nicknamed 'doppleganger' by AnnoyedCecealia. given title: that guy! by drummer. lol XD
wishing to live.
whispering wind.
falling through sky.
knowing i died.
falling.
dying...
slowly......
It's somewhat doable. Back in the 4th Ed era monsters had a "bloodied" condition hat triggered when they were at half or less HP, and some solo monsters have abilities and powers that turned on when they crossed that threshold. Using that design principle to change up how a monster does things when it hits 50% health would somewhat fulfill your needs.
Lots of monsters haves something like this. Typically they are described as abilities that activate on "Death". Look for thinks called Mythic Actions.
Example from the Aspect of Bahamut:
Platinum Brilliance (Recharges after a Short or Long Rest).
If the aspect would be reduced to 0 hit points, his current hit point total instead resets to 500 hit points, he recharges his Breath Weapon, and he regains any expended uses of Legendary Resistance. Additionally, the aspect can now use the options in the "Mythic Actions" section for 1 hour. Award a party an additional 155,000 XP (310,000 XP total) for defeating the aspect of Bahamut after his Platinum Brilliance activates.
mythic actions are cool, but homebrew. for- like level 20+ characters, consider Saga Actions(i just made this up) for things way beyond mythical. when they drop to 0 hit points the SECOND time, the Saga Actions become active. the more they use said actons, the more powerful they become.
the turrasque, goes super sayin for mythical, and then after that... their bite attacks deal progesssively more damage, at the cost of hit points
Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Mythic Actions are not homebrew.
They are mostly found in Fitzban's Treasury of Dragons. A couple more are found in the Theros book, as well as a single CR 10 creature from the guide to Ravenloft (Dullahan).
So when we talk about phases there are a few different things.
1) A dynamic stat block that changes based on certain condition. A dynamic stat block doesn't necessarily increase the difficulty as it doesn't always add more health and changes can be side grades, upgrades or even down grades.
2) Damage gating where the monsters health is prevented from decreasing too much at one time either by resetting at some point. This increases difficulty by improving survivability and is functionally like adding hit points. In the case of a reset it can be like putting the same whole monster again.
3) Damage windows where a monster has specific times it can be damaged creating invulnerable and vulnerable phases. This really depends on the specifics but basically it allows for a mix of challenges. For example there could be a phase where players need to complete a puzzle, destroy minions ect..
Mythic and multiple stat block like Auril and bahamut include both dynamic stat block changes and health resets so significantly increase difficulty. Its like adding whole new monsters to the fight and you should consider difficulty as the sum of those phases. Where as if it doesn't get a new health bar the difficulty is likely closer to the average of the phases.
That's kinda what I was thinking with the "down side" of having multiple phases.
Yeah I saw that. I think that's exactly my idea.
"When at first you don't succeed. Try and try again" Story of my life.
Nicknamed 'doppleganger' by AnnoyedCecealia. given title: that guy! by drummer. lol XD
wishing to live.
whispering wind.
falling through sky.
knowing i died.
falling.
dying...
slowly......
i knew that, sorry if it came off like i was saying they were homebrew. "mythic actions are cool. but consdier homebrew" is waht i was trying to get across
Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
You might also try looking at Matt Coville's "Action Oriented Monsters" for ways to give enemies dynamic, context-dependent actions.
Easy enough to give a high level Boss a 2 stage fight. Shapechange. The party fights a fairly high CR Dragon, and on the killing blow, it morphs into a potent spellcaster. I'd use it without hesitation, if I felt the party stood a reasonable chance of success. Especially if you see them blowing their "Big Stuff" on the dragon aspect of the encounter. Simple, easily copied by the party if one of them had the spell, so not an "unfair" tactic. Great way to convince the party to spend a load of resources then face a second, just as dangerous threat.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
You should check out "Rime of the Frostmaiden" as well. Auril has 3 forms - 'the Cold Crone', 'the Brittle Maiden' and 'the Queen of Frozen Tears'. You can get an idea from this Beyond article here.
The simple way of handling a staged boss fight is "when monster X is defeated, spawn monster Y"; if you're tracking xp budgets, just add the stages together (you don't even need to have a single monster every phase -- nothing wrong with one monster splitting into multiple, or multiple merging into one). This doesn't really require any homebrew, it's just encounter design. The main drawback is that you wind up with a hit point pool which is large relative to the monster's damage output, meaning a fight that's still beatable may be something of a slog. This typically isn't a problem for a two stage fight, you frequently want a boss fight to last relatively long, but can be a problem for a multi-stage fight. For example, a reasonable staged boss fight at level 10 might be that you have a cult worshiping an evil statue, which is a actually a stone golem. When the PCs overcome the stone golem, the earth in the cave where the statue was located rises and forms into a clay golem. When that goes down, the true villain, a dao, appears. That's a beatable boss fight at level 10 (it's 18,100 xp, or 50% of the daily budget for 4 PCs), but the PCs will have to beat through 498 total hit points, which will not be fast.
The easy fix is to reduce monster hit points (assume half hp = half xp value for budget), increase monster damage (x2 damage = x2 xp budget), or both. For example, in the above example I might give the boss one legendary action that's usable for slam, fist, or maul (+50% damage output) and then halve the hit points of the second and third stages (total hit points reduced to 329), noting that the creature 'looks already wounded' or something.
An advantage to staged fights is that it makes it really easy for the DM to fudge if the fight is too easy or too hard: the players don't know what the stages are, so you can just change the later stages depending on how they do on the earlier stages.