One of my players recently brought to my attention a general feeling that the first encounters (*not so spoiler spoiler*) with the goblins is more of a challenge than a party of 1st level characters can realistically overcome. They have been forced to retreat to take a short rest after only 2 encounters, thereby using their 1 hit dice worth of healing, and are now faced with the prospect of leaving, and taking a long rest in the woods to completely recover, and regain spells. They have taken a bit of a beating with traps, luckless dice rolls, and in my opinion, a general lack of tactics, where 5 characters act like they are playing alone, rather than as a cohesive group. Despite themselves, and some close calls where they had to start rolling death saves, they have all managed to live. My take on this is, "Well, adventuring is hard. A lot of 1st level characters don't make it to 2nd level, if you're playing the game right, picking up a sword instead of a plow invites risk." My monsters play smart, use their abilities (and brains, such as they have in the case of goblins) and I don't feel like I should just 'dumb things down' to make things easier. But I get it. Unchallenged players quickly get a bad case of bored, while conversely, over challenged characters quickly get a terminal case of dead. How do I strike the balance that keeps the momentum, tension and fun without a forcing a TPK and a fall back to session Zero? Constructive comments and advice are welcome. Please, no trolls.
Did you have a session zero to talk about expectations? Do the players expect to feel like heroes? Did you tell them this part of your philosophy before the campaign started:
My monsters play smart, use their abilities (and brains, such as they have in the case of goblins) and I don't feel like I should just 'dumb things down' to make things easier.
Because that's definitely not the only way DND shakes out. Make sure you're all on the same page, and make sure everyone is having fun. If they're not having fun, what's the point?
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
oh, the first chapter is definitely deadly! spoilers ahead...
let's count:
Goblin Ambush: four goblins with surprise, ranged weapons, and surprisingly high Dex. >50% chance they strike you, <50% chance to strike them, and probably takes two hits to kill one. yikes! playing this 'smart' seems unfair. it's bad enough that i'd recommend skipping the surprise and ignoring the bonus action hide unless you want this first battle to be the biggest one today.
Snare Trap / Pit Trap: a lesson in moving slowly to avoid a -5 penalty to passive perception maybe
Goblin Guard Post: two goblins and a goblin boss. a lesson in 3/4-cover, working as a team to spring an ambush (stealth), and not meta-gaming too loudly lest the goblins hear you. played smart, they call for help which attracts three wolves and a horde of goblins. a lesson in 'being tracked by scent' or maybe 'have a backup character ready'?).
Kennel: three wolves that can't reach you but would like to. lesson in animal handling or, better yet, leaving the heck alone. played smart, any wolf that got the chains to move once would likely keep at it until free. probably not trained to go deeper into the cave, they'll stick around at the mouth of the cave howling to encourage the other wolves. someone comes to check, they sound the alarm, characters all die.
Steep Passage: one giant poisonous snake (potential), one distant goblin guard (impending). that goblin could be a lesson on how dim light inflicts (another) -5 penalty to passive perception but instead it's just a straight DC 12 by the book. playing this one smart seems like an even quicker alarm due to any flicker of torch giving the party away. the snake is similarly "gotcha" gaming since the climber isn't likely to be the high wisdom character, the snake gets advantage, and the poison + bite combo could insta-kill many level 1s.
Overpass: one goblin, harder to spot now if you missed it before. either a lesson in stealth kills with the sounds of a lovely babbling brook for cover or an instant alarm call. even fighting this guy on even terms would likely draw attention from the goblin den at this point (and, looking back, same could be said for the snake). additionally, even if you're not playing "smart" and letting noise carry to the den, this guy can by-the-book shout for someone to release the flood gates. i like that there are two saves available to keep from taking damage, but 7 damage could kill an injured player. also, they can call for a second flood. and then they can still call for the boss.
Twin-Pools Cave: three goblins (still good Dex plus bonus action Hide), two wolves (pack tactics). it's dark in there and the waterfall is loud enough to drown out fighting (by the book). smart play would take the wolves keen smell (18 passive perception (=13+5 for advantage)) and deny the players any chance to prepare (like light a torch for the non-darkvision persons). is this a lesson in blind combat? even by-the-book it's a brutal lesson in disadvantage: pack tactics + blind + hidden foes + knocked prone by a wolf. the only way to survive this is don't get hit! and that's if one of the goblins doesn't run up the stairs for...
Klarg: one bugbear, two goblins, and one wolf. it's almost certain that these guys are added to the pools fight if even one of those previous goblins decides to shoot their bow while backing up. and depending on how you read the bugbear's "surprise attack" there's about a 50% chance someone falls to zero hp from his first attack or instant death in melee.
Goblin Den: five goblins, two goblin bosses. skip this. all that and now you're going to negotiate with this overwhelming (and well rested, compared to you!) force you can't even trust?? how long has your session been at this point?? pretend Sildar was found in Klarg's cave.
is this chapter deadly? yes, over and over and over again! next time i run this it'll be aggressively not-smart and by the book until the cave. everyone will learn some lessons, then find Sildar tied up in the kennel barely out of reach of surly wolves. handle some animals or not, whatever, but if someone tries to poke their nose into the DARK part of the cave they'll see that overpass guard peering back at them suspiciously before it nearly falls over from the force of a roar of bugbear laughter followed by Ripper the wolf howling along. the boss is stirring. consider yourself warned, player. you've only got the one objective and a paper thin reason to risk your skin any further. put a pin in this and come back to it. there's still the question of how you're getting around those wolves so don't go bringing snakes and floods and hordes of goblins into this! you've been lucky so far, guy, now cash in! go go go!!
At this stage the line is thin between wanting them to feel danger vs total party kill. 1st level characters are very fragile and a couple of adventures (Phandelver and Below, The Shattered Obelisk, Lost Mine of Phandelver, Dragon of Icespire Peak etc) have encounters that can be too deadly for such party if played with a minimum of brain. It's even more dire if the party takes poor tactical decisions.
My suggestion is often to be more lenient with 1st-level party and not hesitate to have weak enemies flee when taking significant loss in order to rest and level up so i can challenge them even more after as i prefer when they're a little more experienced before i stop pulling punches.
One of my players recently brought to my attention a general feeling that the first encounters (*not so spoiler spoiler*) with the goblins is more of a challenge than a party of 1st level characters can realistically overcome.
That's always been a common criticism of this module. I usually skip the surprise and have the players hear one of the goblins and search the trees.
This was my group's (re)introduction (for all but one of us) back to RP and DnD specifically after a probably 20yr gap. There's a few stealth monsters in the group and a couple of characters that just rolled unusually great stats... but it all went ok. They were thoughtful. Wolves got free. Water traps got used. At this stage I don't think I'd got a grip of the rules and the Gobbos definitely weren't being as 'clever' as they could have been. heir But the guys and gals managed.
What was more of a surprise for them was meeting some lippy Redbrands that suddenly had two attacks. That got close.
Just finishing up now after a massively over-embellised LMoP, infrequent play, a couple of sidequests and a visit to the Feywild, and a couple of years play. We had good fun and now King Klarg is overseeing Cragmaw Castle and is an ally of the group and is helping to rebuild Phandalin (don't ask). Off to SKT next... (and nowadays the monsters know what they are doing).
Editing cos I haven't really answered the question! - Yes it is hard. But later in the adventure I actually made things harder - I personally think it's great to have characters bibbling about on c. 25% HP or less with very few resources remaining. That's when things get real - and remembered. Great stories. BTW The Owlbear from Cragmaw Castle got free and is an ongoing fun Nemesis - A pure white Owlbear of unusual size and ferocity that seems to be following the team. She is known as 'Aggie Bess'
I use average damage for all foes at character levels 1 and 2 to help with the deadliness. This means that swingy dice won't instantly kill some player's nice new 1st level character.
When I ran LMoP I don't think the party lost any PCs. I can't say the same for the NPCs, on the other hand… Sildar survived but all three Rockseeker brothers died, Sister Garaele died, Glasstaff escaped, the Black Spider escaped… It was not the PCs' finest hour.
Really? My party for this campaign absolutly destroyed the goblins via smoking them out, then shooting arrows into the stream outside cragmaw hideout. If your characters are having trouble fighting Yeemik, say he surrenders as the rest of his crew dies. You are the Dm. You can also make a new treacherous Yeemik if you have already gotten past this and let him help by fighting klarg the bugbear.
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One of my players recently brought to my attention a general feeling that the first encounters (*not so spoiler spoiler*) with the goblins is more of a challenge than a party of 1st level characters can realistically overcome. They have been forced to retreat to take a short rest after only 2 encounters, thereby using their 1 hit dice worth of healing, and are now faced with the prospect of leaving, and taking a long rest in the woods to completely recover, and regain spells. They have taken a bit of a beating with traps, luckless dice rolls, and in my opinion, a general lack of tactics, where 5 characters act like they are playing alone, rather than as a cohesive group. Despite themselves, and some close calls where they had to start rolling death saves, they have all managed to live. My take on this is, "Well, adventuring is hard. A lot of 1st level characters don't make it to 2nd level, if you're playing the game right, picking up a sword instead of a plow invites risk." My monsters play smart, use their abilities (and brains, such as they have in the case of goblins) and I don't feel like I should just 'dumb things down' to make things easier. But I get it. Unchallenged players quickly get a bad case of bored, while conversely, over challenged characters quickly get a terminal case of dead. How do I strike the balance that keeps the momentum, tension and fun without a forcing a TPK and a fall back to session Zero? Constructive comments and advice are welcome. Please, no trolls.
Did you have a session zero to talk about expectations? Do the players expect to feel like heroes? Did you tell them this part of your philosophy before the campaign started:
Because that's definitely not the only way DND shakes out. Make sure you're all on the same page, and make sure everyone is having fun. If they're not having fun, what's the point?
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
oh, the first chapter is definitely deadly! spoilers ahead...
let's count:
is this chapter deadly? yes, over and over and over again! next time i run this it'll be aggressively not-smart and by the book until the cave. everyone will learn some lessons, then find Sildar tied up in the kennel barely out of reach of surly wolves. handle some animals or not, whatever, but if someone tries to poke their nose into the DARK part of the cave they'll see that overpass guard peering back at them suspiciously before it nearly falls over from the force of a roar of bugbear laughter followed by Ripper the wolf howling along. the boss is stirring. consider yourself warned, player. you've only got the one objective and a paper thin reason to risk your skin any further. put a pin in this and come back to it. there's still the question of how you're getting around those wolves so don't go bringing snakes and floods and hordes of goblins into this! you've been lucky so far, guy, now cash in! go go go!!
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
At this stage the line is thin between wanting them to feel danger vs total party kill. 1st level characters are very fragile and a couple of adventures (Phandelver and Below, The Shattered Obelisk, Lost Mine of Phandelver, Dragon of Icespire Peak etc) have encounters that can be too deadly for such party if played with a minimum of brain. It's even more dire if the party takes poor tactical decisions.
My suggestion is often to be more lenient with 1st-level party and not hesitate to have weak enemies flee when taking significant loss in order to rest and level up so i can challenge them even more after as i prefer when they're a little more experienced before i stop pulling punches.
Excellent advice from all, per usual...thanks!
That's always been a common criticism of this module. I usually skip the surprise and have the players hear one of the goblins and search the trees.
This was my group's (re)introduction (for all but one of us) back to RP and DnD specifically after a probably 20yr gap. There's a few stealth monsters in the group and a couple of characters that just rolled unusually great stats... but it all went ok. They were thoughtful. Wolves got free. Water traps got used. At this stage I don't think I'd got a grip of the rules and the Gobbos definitely weren't being as 'clever' as they could have been. heir But the guys and gals managed.
What was more of a surprise for them was meeting some lippy Redbrands that suddenly had two attacks. That got close.
Just finishing up now after a massively over-embellised LMoP, infrequent play, a couple of sidequests and a visit to the Feywild, and a couple of years play. We had good fun and now King Klarg is overseeing Cragmaw Castle and is an ally of the group and is helping to rebuild Phandalin (don't ask). Off to SKT next... (and nowadays the monsters know what they are doing).
Editing cos I haven't really answered the question! - Yes it is hard. But later in the adventure I actually made things harder - I personally think it's great to have characters bibbling about on c. 25% HP or less with very few resources remaining. That's when things get real - and remembered. Great stories. BTW The Owlbear from Cragmaw Castle got free and is an ongoing fun Nemesis - A pure white Owlbear of unusual size and ferocity that seems to be following the team. She is known as 'Aggie Bess'
RPGs from '83 - 03. A fair bit of LRP. A big gap. And now DMing again. Froth.
I use average damage for all foes at character levels 1 and 2 to help with the deadliness. This means that swingy dice won't instantly kill some player's nice new 1st level character.
When I ran LMoP I don't think the party lost any PCs. I can't say the same for the NPCs, on the other hand… Sildar survived but all three Rockseeker brothers died, Sister Garaele died, Glasstaff escaped, the Black Spider escaped… It was not the PCs' finest hour.
Really? My party for this campaign absolutly destroyed the goblins via smoking them out, then shooting arrows into the stream outside cragmaw hideout. If your characters are having trouble fighting Yeemik, say he surrenders as the rest of his crew dies. You are the Dm. You can also make a new treacherous Yeemik if you have already gotten past this and let him help by fighting klarg the bugbear.