A particular player wants a very dilettante sort of mage who pulls spell craft from various disciplines (wizard, cleric, warlock, etc), and is simply assumed by everyone to be a sort of Wizard; frequently uses a book, very knowledgeable of matters arcane, etc. To be clear, he's not trying to deceive anyone, he's simply from a different cultural background with different magical traditions.
My immediate thought is to simply reflavor a Bard (College of Lore most likely), as I think it will do the job marvelously.
However, I was wondering if I could benefit from the collective brain trust here and see if anyone has done something similar previously and how you went about it.
I'd skip any re-skinning of the classes and talk to the player about re-skinning the flavor, details, and roleplay. Maybe his culture does pull wizard spells out of a hat, etc., and isn't as reliant on spellbooks? The magic function can work, per the books, while the flavor of it can work in the performance.
Any spell with a 'Verbal' component could be some audible activity, such as playing an instrument. It'll feel bard-ish but doesn't need the functional class change.
TL;DR: Sometimes, the easiest path to fun is to add all this flavor and spice to existing rules.
A particular player wants a very dilettante sort of mage who pulls spell craft from various disciplines (wizard, cleric, warlock, etc), and is simply assumed by everyone to be a sort of Wizard; frequently uses a book, very knowledgeable of matters arcane, etc. To be clear, he's not trying to deceive anyone, he's simply from a different cultural background with different magical traditions.
My immediate thought is to simply reflavor a Bard (College of Lore most likely), as I think it will do the job marvelously.
However, I was wondering if I could benefit from the collective brain trust here and see if anyone has done something similar previously and how you went about it.
If not, how would you go about it?
Thanks!
Your plan is decent, but may not give them as much flexibility as they were hoping for, since they're still mostly limited to the Bard list.
And Bards don't get to swap out spells on a day to day basis like wizards, and they're charisma casters, not intelligence.
So it depends on what they want (and what you're willing to give them). If they're functionally wanting a wizard who can pick and choose from everybody's spell list, what are they giving up to avoid them stepping on every other caster's toes?
If you’re just looking for a wizard with a broader spell list, I’d think you could pull it off with a wizard, then add in a background that gives you access to a spell or two not on the wizard list —strixhaven for example — and grab a magic initiate feat here or there.
Just let him play a Wizard that acts in a certain way. There is nothing wrong with that. Making them a Bard goes with all of the Bard restrictions.
You could also recommend Divine Soul Sorcerer. They can pull spells from the Sorc list and Cleric list. Which is the closest thing outside of multiclass that you are asking for.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
i'm surprised no one has said arcana cleric. if i was the player, i'd fixate on 'collecting' and studying curses (and warlocky stuff) to give better context to the 6th level subclass ability of Spell Breaker healing. alternatively, an order of scribes wizard gets to use their book as an arcane focus and there's a lot of fun to be had in casting spells with unexpected elements. the drawback is that it would require a feat or tattoo to cast non-wizard stuff, but it just depends on whether the focus is on investigating other magics or casting other magics.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
He really wants the wide spread access to any spell he wants. That is Magical Secrets. Arcane casters with a small list of divine magic and divine casters with a small list of arcane spells will not fit what he desires.
He really wants the wide spread access to any spell he wants. That is Magical Secrets. Arcane casters with a small list of divine magic and divine casters with a small list of arcane spells will not fit what he desires.
you make a great point. "frequently uses a book, very knowledgeable of matters arcane, etc" could very easily describe a sage-like bard (although it still baffles me why bards are as wizardly as they are). however, this misses out on absorbing new spells to a spellbook (which could be packed by the DM via many cross-class scrolls and spellbooks found in treasure piles) and loses out on some versatility (as discussed above: locked-in 'known' spells list vs daily 'prepared' spells list). not to mention the synergy of wizard with intellect skills like Arcana and Investigation. seems easier to be a wizard.
...but not just a wizard, but a wizard who plays fiddle like an arcane Sherlock (starting proficiency and/or musician feat) and has an overburdened keychain of holy symbols like Beni Gabor from the Mummy (1999) scrambling for the right religious symbol. every time a spell has to be cast, they can come up with a new thing: rain dance, finger-guns, incinerate a rose, invoke a true name, etc etc etc. basically, decide in session zero that almost anything is a spell focus / spell material (zero cost materials only) as long as they explain it (and no expectation of hidden benefits). pure flavor at the expense of so very little. on top of that, if they start with a magic item then it could be a multi-use Statuette of Augury re-skinned as a silver cage into which an imp, pixie, etc could be summoned to replicate a single use of augury (once per long rest safely...) which covers the eldritch side of things (until they can upgrade to a talking magic skull).
He really wants the wide spread access to any spell he wants. That is Magical Secrets. Arcane casters with a small list of divine magic and divine casters with a small list of arcane spells will not fit what he desires.
you make a great point. "frequently uses a book, very knowledgeable of matters arcane, etc" could very easily describe a sage-like bard (although it still baffles me why bards are as wizardly as they are). however, this misses out on absorbing new spells to a spellbook (which could be packed by the DM via many cross-class scrolls and spellbooks found in treasure piles) and loses out on some versatility (as discussed above: locked-in 'known' spells list vs daily 'prepared' spells list). not to mention the synergy of wizard with intellect skills like Arcana and Investigation. seems easier to be a wizard.
...
I may have misunderstood your comment but I just wanted to mention that the only spells that a wizard can scribe are ones on the wizard spell list. They can't prepare anything not on the wizard spell list even from a scroll. There is no opportunity to scribe "cross-class" spells or cast them as a wizard unless the DM wants to house rule it.
"Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind."
"You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it."
In addition, a character can only cast a Spell Scroll if it is on their spell list so a wizard can't use a cleric spell scroll, though a divine soul sorcerer could.
Although the general rule for scrolls in the DMG says:
"Unless a scroll’s description says otherwise, any creature that can understand a written language can read the script on a scroll and attempt to activate it."
The specific rule for Spell Scrolls in the DMG says:
"A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible."
This allows items like a scroll of protection or other scroll that doesn't cast a spell to be used by any class but Spell Scrolls are only usable by classes with the spell on their spell list.
---------------
In terms of the OP, I think the lore bard is probably your best compromise since Magical Secrets is the only mechanism in the game that lets you choose spells from other spell lists - though the ability is very limited (the only other feature I can think of is the warlock tome of ancient secrets that lets them collect all ritual spells). If they want to focus on INT and be more sage/researcher like, you could swap the primary stat from charisma to intelligence and probably not break anything.
Another, maybe less elegant approach would be multiclassing. A level in bard, wizard and cleric would give access to the vast majority of first level spells. The character could then continue as a wizard or lore bard to acquire access to higher level spells. A popular build that is very knowledgeable would be a level 1 knowledge cleric/ level X lore bard with at least 14 wisdom and 16 charisma to start. This character will always have 5 cleric spells prepared (level+2 for wis + 2 from cleric archetype) plus bard spells which would start at 4 at level 1 .. so the 2nd level character would have access to 6 cantrips and 9 first level spells across a range of disciplines and would have expertise in the Arcana skill as well as one more int skill. The same ideas apply for a 1 knowledge cleric / X wizard. The only constraint is that the character lacks access to the higher level cleric spells. However, there is NO choice within the current rules that allows access to all the spell lists of all the classes as far as I know. It would be a bit overpowered and able to pick and choose the best spells from each class. Players playing any of the other casters would immediately ask why this character can choose any magic spells while they can't.
P.S.
One more thing :) ... not every bard is a song and dance type bard.
"Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration."
Oration is speech. The bard could hum, speak poetically, or even just speak forcefully using their personality to channel the magic of their spells.
eg "A stern human warrior bangs his sword rhythmically against his scale mail, setting the tempo for his war chant and exhorting his companions to bravery and heroism. The magic of his song fortifies and emboldens them." A war chant could be spoken, not even sung.
A bard can use a musical instrument as a spell focus, but they don't have to. They can use a spell component pouch and the requirements for using a focus or a pouch are the same. The character still needs a free hand to interact with the material components whether that is a pouch or a musical instrument.
Also, keep in mind that there is no requirement to actually play a musical instrument to cast a spell. All they need to do is hold it.
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
Anyway, bards cover a wide range of role playing possibilities, not limited to an entertainer with a musical instrument.
He really wants the wide spread access to any spell he wants. That is Magical Secrets. Arcane casters with a small list of divine magic and divine casters with a small list of arcane spells will not fit what he desires.
...this misses out on absorbing new spells to a spellbook (which could be packed by the DM via many cross-class scrolls and spellbooks found in treasure piles)...
I may have misunderstood your comment but I just wanted to mention that the only spells that a wizard can scribe are ones on the wizard spell list.
They can't prepare anything not on the wizard spell list even from a scroll. There is no opportunity to scribe "cross-class" spells or cast them as a wizard unless the DM wants to house rule it.
"Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind."
"You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it."
In addition, a character can only cast a Spell Scroll if it is on their spell list so a wizard can't use a cleric spell scroll, though a divine soul sorcerer could.
Although the general rule for scrolls in the DMG says:
"Unless a scroll’s description says otherwise, any creature that can understand a written language can read the script on a scroll and attempt to activate it."
The specific rule for Spell Scrolls in the DMG says:
"A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible."
This allows items like a scroll of protection or other scroll that doesn't cast a spell to be used by any class but Spell Scrolls are only usable by classes with the spell on their spell list.
i was saying that some spells are on more than one list. some wizard spells that a warlock, bard, or cleric might also cast: summon fey, dispel magic, suggestion, speak with dead, etc etc etc...
...easier to name spells a wizard can't cast: conjure fey, inflict wounds, glibness... shrug. what i read was a character looking for a novel way to play an arcane caster, not the capacity for casting cure light wounds. shrug shrug.
A particular player wants a very dilettante sort of mage who pulls spell craft from various disciplines (wizard, cleric, warlock, etc), and is simply assumed by everyone to be a sort of Wizard; frequently uses a book, very knowledgeable of matters arcane, etc. To be clear, he's not trying to deceive anyone, he's simply from a different cultural background with different magical traditions.
My immediate thought is to simply reflavor a Bard (College of Lore most likely), as I think it will do the job marvelously.
However, I was wondering if I could benefit from the collective brain trust here and see if anyone has done something similar previously and how you went about it.
If not, how would you go about it?
Thanks!
I'd skip any re-skinning of the classes and talk to the player about re-skinning the flavor, details, and roleplay. Maybe his culture does pull wizard spells out of a hat, etc., and isn't as reliant on spellbooks? The magic function can work, per the books, while the flavor of it can work in the performance.
Any spell with a 'Verbal' component could be some audible activity, such as playing an instrument. It'll feel bard-ish but doesn't need the functional class change.
TL;DR: Sometimes, the easiest path to fun is to add all this flavor and spice to existing rules.
Your plan is decent, but may not give them as much flexibility as they were hoping for, since they're still mostly limited to the Bard list.
And Bards don't get to swap out spells on a day to day basis like wizards, and they're charisma casters, not intelligence.
So it depends on what they want (and what you're willing to give them). If they're functionally wanting a wizard who can pick and choose from everybody's spell list, what are they giving up to avoid them stepping on every other caster's toes?
You do not need to reskin, just play the College of Lore Bard and:
Nothing about being a bard requires you to actually make music, you just need an instrument physically on you as a focus.
If you’re just looking for a wizard with a broader spell list, I’d think you could pull it off with a wizard, then add in a background that gives you access to a spell or two not on the wizard list —strixhaven for example — and grab a magic initiate feat here or there.
Just let him play a Wizard that acts in a certain way. There is nothing wrong with that. Making them a Bard goes with all of the Bard restrictions.
You could also recommend Divine Soul Sorcerer. They can pull spells from the Sorc list and Cleric list. Which is the closest thing outside of multiclass that you are asking for.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
i'm surprised no one has said arcana cleric. if i was the player, i'd fixate on 'collecting' and studying curses (and warlocky stuff) to give better context to the 6th level subclass ability of Spell Breaker healing. alternatively, an order of scribes wizard gets to use their book as an arcane focus and there's a lot of fun to be had in casting spells with unexpected elements. the drawback is that it would require a feat or tattoo to cast non-wizard stuff, but it just depends on whether the focus is on investigating other magics or casting other magics.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
He really wants the wide spread access to any spell he wants. That is Magical Secrets. Arcane casters with a small list of divine magic and divine casters with a small list of arcane spells will not fit what he desires.
you make a great point. "frequently uses a book, very knowledgeable of matters arcane, etc" could very easily describe a sage-like bard (although it still baffles me why bards are as wizardly as they are). however, this misses out on absorbing new spells to a spellbook (which could be packed by the DM via many cross-class scrolls and spellbooks found in treasure piles) and loses out on some versatility (as discussed above: locked-in 'known' spells list vs daily 'prepared' spells list). not to mention the synergy of wizard with intellect skills like Arcana and Investigation. seems easier to be a wizard.
...but not just a wizard, but a wizard who plays fiddle like an arcane Sherlock (starting proficiency and/or musician feat) and has an overburdened keychain of holy symbols like Beni Gabor from the Mummy (1999) scrambling for the right religious symbol. every time a spell has to be cast, they can come up with a new thing: rain dance, finger-guns, incinerate a rose, invoke a true name, etc etc etc. basically, decide in session zero that almost anything is a spell focus / spell material (zero cost materials only) as long as they explain it (and no expectation of hidden benefits). pure flavor at the expense of so very little. on top of that, if they start with a magic item then it could be a multi-use Statuette of Augury re-skinned as a silver cage into which an imp, pixie, etc could be summoned to replicate a single use of augury (once per long rest safely...) which covers the eldritch side of things (until they can upgrade to a talking magic skull).
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I may have misunderstood your comment but I just wanted to mention that the only spells that a wizard can scribe are ones on the wizard spell list. They can't prepare anything not on the wizard spell list even from a scroll. There is no opportunity to scribe "cross-class" spells or cast them as a wizard unless the DM wants to house rule it.
"Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind."
"You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it."
In addition, a character can only cast a Spell Scroll if it is on their spell list so a wizard can't use a cleric spell scroll, though a divine soul sorcerer could.
Although the general rule for scrolls in the DMG says:
"Unless a scroll’s description says otherwise, any creature that can understand a written language can read the script on a scroll and attempt to activate it."
The specific rule for Spell Scrolls in the DMG says:
"A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible."
This allows items like a scroll of protection or other scroll that doesn't cast a spell to be used by any class but Spell Scrolls are only usable by classes with the spell on their spell list.
---------------
In terms of the OP, I think the lore bard is probably your best compromise since Magical Secrets is the only mechanism in the game that lets you choose spells from other spell lists - though the ability is very limited (the only other feature I can think of is the warlock tome of ancient secrets that lets them collect all ritual spells). If they want to focus on INT and be more sage/researcher like, you could swap the primary stat from charisma to intelligence and probably not break anything.
Another, maybe less elegant approach would be multiclassing. A level in bard, wizard and cleric would give access to the vast majority of first level spells. The character could then continue as a wizard or lore bard to acquire access to higher level spells. A popular build that is very knowledgeable would be a level 1 knowledge cleric/ level X lore bard with at least 14 wisdom and 16 charisma to start. This character will always have 5 cleric spells prepared (level+2 for wis + 2 from cleric archetype) plus bard spells which would start at 4 at level 1 .. so the 2nd level character would have access to 6 cantrips and 9 first level spells across a range of disciplines and would have expertise in the Arcana skill as well as one more int skill. The same ideas apply for a 1 knowledge cleric / X wizard. The only constraint is that the character lacks access to the higher level cleric spells. However, there is NO choice within the current rules that allows access to all the spell lists of all the classes as far as I know. It would be a bit overpowered and able to pick and choose the best spells from each class. Players playing any of the other casters would immediately ask why this character can choose any magic spells while they can't.
P.S.
One more thing :) ... not every bard is a song and dance type bard.
"Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration."
Oration is speech. The bard could hum, speak poetically, or even just speak forcefully using their personality to channel the magic of their spells.
eg "A stern human warrior bangs his sword rhythmically against his scale mail, setting the tempo for his war chant and exhorting his companions to bravery and heroism. The magic of his song fortifies and emboldens them." A war chant could be spoken, not even sung.
A bard can use a musical instrument as a spell focus, but they don't have to. They can use a spell component pouch and the requirements for using a focus or a pouch are the same. The character still needs a free hand to interact with the material components whether that is a pouch or a musical instrument.
Also, keep in mind that there is no requirement to actually play a musical instrument to cast a spell. All they need to do is hold it.
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
Anyway, bards cover a wide range of role playing possibilities, not limited to an entertainer with a musical instrument.
i was saying that some spells are on more than one list. some wizard spells that a warlock, bard, or cleric might also cast: summon fey, dispel magic, suggestion, speak with dead, etc etc etc...
...easier to name spells a wizard can't cast: conjure fey, inflict wounds, glibness... shrug. what i read was a character looking for a novel way to play an arcane caster, not the capacity for casting cure light wounds. shrug shrug.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!