I am struggling to create encounters for four 8th-level players (Warlock/Paladin, Fighter, Artificer, Cleric) who clean up everything I throw at them. It's not even a challenge for them, even though I have been developing the encounters with the Deadly level in mind. These encounters are intended to be a challenge, especially when it is a Boss Battle, where someone may get killed.
Note: This is not a DM vs. Players mentality, but it does not hurt to make the players sweat occasionally.
I want the combat to be fun and engaging and for the players to not go through the motions. I know encounter building is not an exact science, but I wanted to see how others develop their encounters or any tips or perspectives one may have.
I am struggling to create encounters for four 8th-level players (Warlock/Paladin, Fighter, Artificer, Cleric) who clean up everything I throw at them. It's not even a challenge for them, even though I have been developing the encounters with the Deadly level in mind.
Well, remember that Deadly doesn't have an upper limit. If the PCs only have one encounter in a day... feel free to use the entire daily budget for it (for 4x level 8, that would be 24,000 adjusted xp -- roughly 4x CR 7, or 2x CR 12, or 1x CR 20).
Make sure the creatures they are fighting are using good tactics. IMO, smart opponents would target spellcasters and not go toe-to-toe with HtH types unless they were really tough as well. Have opponents gang up on non-HtH combatants.
As a general rule I've found a higher number of opponents to be more of a threat than higher CR. One high CR and all the PCs can focus on it, bringing it down very quickly. When you have 10+ opponents that's harder.
Enforce environmental hazards. PCs wipe the floor with monsters which fight on equal/even footing. Make the footing less even, and that's not to say stack things against the PCs, but give something which wasn't part of preparation and which alters the field of play. Battle atop a bridge. In confined quarters where disadvantage can be applied to those who get stuck into a corner. Let the monsters prepare the field sometimes, or give them the element of surprise. A few of the best combat encounters I've ever had started with rolling for initiative before an enemy was visible.
How many encounters do you tend to have before they can rest?
That can often play into this, all the characters always being at full power vs. needing to conserve.
Right now, the party is in a homebrew underdark of sorts, so they are resting almost after every combat. This is a group that is very tenacious; if they run into a random encounter that disrupts their resting, then they move on to rest again when all is clear.
I am struggling to create encounters for four 8th-level players (Warlock/Paladin, Fighter, Artificer, Cleric) who clean up everything I throw at them. It's not even a challenge for them, even though I have been developing the encounters with the Deadly level in mind.
Well, remember that Deadly doesn't have an upper limit. If the PCs only have one encounter in a day... feel free to use the entire daily budget for it (for 4x level 8, that would be 24,000 adjusted xp -- roughly 4x CR 7, or 2x CR 12, or 1x CR 20).
That is a good way to look at it and something I had not considered.
My least favourite tier of play is 8-12 as a DM. It's where I have such a difficulty in choosing appropriate encounters and enemies. That said I have got a few strategies that I have now employed. Some work for homebrew worlds, others don't. The one caveat I have here is that magic items can absolutely be given out too often and can undermine all of this.
The Unsafe Place
Wave Echo Cave in Lost Mine of Phandelver is an interesting study on this one. Most of the enemies as written don't move or leave their designated areas. That means that players can move through the mine room by room and rest up in (relative) safety.
You can flip this on it's head by having roaming enemies, and even more scary, reviving enemies like the [Tooltip Not Found]. My group of seven level 6 player characters recently came to the smelting room where there are several zombies and a flame skull. They 'killed' all of them, then took a short rest. In doing so, the party should have had their short rest interupted by the Flame Skull restoring back to full health and attacking. Instead I went a little easier on them. Had they been a higher level, I absolutely would have interupted that rest and forced them to deal with the encounter.
My criticism of this though is that if you use it too often it becomes tedious to the players to constantly have to have some characters resting, other on watch, and losing their short rest progress. Still, it's a useful occasional strategy.
Lasting effects
Petrification is scary, as are several other conditions. Intellect Devourers that manage to consume the brain are likewise scary. Neither of these two things can be overcome at level 8. Still it raises a point. Creatures like Mummy, Drow Inquisitor, and Vampire that curse, or poison a character can be devastating. The Drow Inquisitor in particular, I'm still using as the rank and file on my big bad's army which can and does cause problems for my level 16 characters due to the hit point maximum reductions.
A couple of Hydroloth can be terrifying with their Steal Memory abilities. If two out of six characters fail their saving throws they're suddenly unable to cast spells, can't understand languages and become far less effective. Elder Oblex is a slightly more powerful version of this and I love the Elder Oblex flanked by two [Tooltip Not Found] is a really fun combo for a larger party.
Lasting effects that require resources or specifically Long Rests will shake up a party that have become set in their ways and rest a bit often.
The swarm
We all know this one. If you want the party to feel like heroes, you give them one big bad. If you want them to feel challenged, you give them loads of different enemies. Twenty-five Ghast are going to require a lot of crowd control. The thing about overwhelming numbers is the wicking away of resources. The point of a swarm is to knock down the spell slots, knock down the healing items, but ultimately not be a real threat. So the hope is that the large numbers will be put before the big, big bad enemy.
The Changing Envrionment
This one is more to make it difficult, but effectively you have traps of different kinds designed to seperate the party during, before, or after combat. A kobold runs off and manages to hit a secret lever that causes the roof of the cavern to collapse in blocking off one half of the party from the other. Similarly, pits and other such traps can achieve the same goal. Finding a way to have the party forced to split up temporarily can break up the monotony and also force the groups to encounter enemies in a different way.
Cowards & Possums
Have enemies modelled on the likes of Cryovain, where they run, retreat or flee once they take more than 10 points of damage. Likewise, there is the enemy who drops to the ground only 'appearing' to be dead or unconscious. Lull the party into a false sense of security.
Environmental damage
I recently after 12 levels of progress introduced my party to an arctic style biome. If they cross above ground they're taking cold damage unless they're well prepared. There is nowhere 'safe' to just rest up. Or they could travel below ground, but it was heavily signposted that there are dangers below, like water that is acidic and poisonous, like roaming monsters and horrors. Just walking through one of the areas underground would result in taking acid damage on failed CON saves. An area where the very environment is a harsh thing, but quite, quite fun. Mix this with a fight...yikes it can be stressful.
Wild Magic
Blatantly stolen from Gnomengarde, but I have an entire island in one of my worlds where the fallen ash of the volcano that dominates the landscape has covered the entire area in wild magics. I introduced non-RAW stuff, like the magic making you feel drunk, or energised, or obsessed with completing a mundane task (darning the hole in a pair of socks). Now pair this with combat and it can be quite fun too.
Well, remember that Deadly doesn't have an upper limit. If the PCs only have one encounter in a day... feel free to use the entire daily budget for it (for 4x level 8, that would be 24,000 adjusted xp -- roughly 4x CR 7, or 2x CR 12, or 1x CR 20).
Make sure the creatures they are fighting are using good tactics. IMO, smart opponents would target spellcasters and not go toe-to-toe with HtH types unless they were really tough as well. Have opponents gang up on non-HtH combatants.
As a general rule I've found a higher number of opponents to be more of a threat than higher CR. One high CR and all the PCs can focus on it, bringing it down very quickly. When you have 10+ opponents that's harder.
How many encounters do you tend to have before they can rest?
That can often play into this, all the characters always being at full power vs. needing to conserve.
Enforce environmental hazards. PCs wipe the floor with monsters which fight on equal/even footing. Make the footing less even, and that's not to say stack things against the PCs, but give something which wasn't part of preparation and which alters the field of play. Battle atop a bridge. In confined quarters where disadvantage can be applied to those who get stuck into a corner. Let the monsters prepare the field sometimes, or give them the element of surprise. A few of the best combat encounters I've ever had started with rolling for initiative before an enemy was visible.
Right now, the party is in a homebrew underdark of sorts, so they are resting almost after every combat. This is a group that is very tenacious; if they run into a random encounter that disrupts their resting, then they move on to rest again when all is clear.
That is a good way to look at it and something I had not considered.
Yeah, if they are getting a rest all the time they will steamroll your encounters.
There are three basic paths most suggest:
My least favourite tier of play is 8-12 as a DM. It's where I have such a difficulty in choosing appropriate encounters and enemies. That said I have got a few strategies that I have now employed. Some work for homebrew worlds, others don't. The one caveat I have here is that magic items can absolutely be given out too often and can undermine all of this.
The Unsafe Place
Wave Echo Cave in Lost Mine of Phandelver is an interesting study on this one. Most of the enemies as written don't move or leave their designated areas. That means that players can move through the mine room by room and rest up in (relative) safety.
You can flip this on it's head by having roaming enemies, and even more scary, reviving enemies like the [Tooltip Not Found]. My group of seven level 6 player characters recently came to the smelting room where there are several zombies and a flame skull. They 'killed' all of them, then took a short rest. In doing so, the party should have had their short rest interupted by the Flame Skull restoring back to full health and attacking. Instead I went a little easier on them. Had they been a higher level, I absolutely would have interupted that rest and forced them to deal with the encounter.
My criticism of this though is that if you use it too often it becomes tedious to the players to constantly have to have some characters resting, other on watch, and losing their short rest progress. Still, it's a useful occasional strategy.
Lasting effects
Petrification is scary, as are several other conditions. Intellect Devourers that manage to consume the brain are likewise scary. Neither of these two things can be overcome at level 8. Still it raises a point. Creatures like Mummy, Drow Inquisitor, and Vampire that curse, or poison a character can be devastating. The Drow Inquisitor in particular, I'm still using as the rank and file on my big bad's army which can and does cause problems for my level 16 characters due to the hit point maximum reductions.
A couple of Hydroloth can be terrifying with their Steal Memory abilities. If two out of six characters fail their saving throws they're suddenly unable to cast spells, can't understand languages and become far less effective. Elder Oblex is a slightly more powerful version of this and I love the Elder Oblex flanked by two [Tooltip Not Found] is a really fun combo for a larger party.
Lasting effects that require resources or specifically Long Rests will shake up a party that have become set in their ways and rest a bit often.
The swarm
We all know this one. If you want the party to feel like heroes, you give them one big bad. If you want them to feel challenged, you give them loads of different enemies. Twenty-five Ghast are going to require a lot of crowd control. The thing about overwhelming numbers is the wicking away of resources. The point of a swarm is to knock down the spell slots, knock down the healing items, but ultimately not be a real threat. So the hope is that the large numbers will be put before the big, big bad enemy.
The Changing Envrionment
This one is more to make it difficult, but effectively you have traps of different kinds designed to seperate the party during, before, or after combat. A kobold runs off and manages to hit a secret lever that causes the roof of the cavern to collapse in blocking off one half of the party from the other. Similarly, pits and other such traps can achieve the same goal. Finding a way to have the party forced to split up temporarily can break up the monotony and also force the groups to encounter enemies in a different way.
Cowards & Possums
Have enemies modelled on the likes of Cryovain, where they run, retreat or flee once they take more than 10 points of damage. Likewise, there is the enemy who drops to the ground only 'appearing' to be dead or unconscious. Lull the party into a false sense of security.
Environmental damage
I recently after 12 levels of progress introduced my party to an arctic style biome. If they cross above ground they're taking cold damage unless they're well prepared. There is nowhere 'safe' to just rest up. Or they could travel below ground, but it was heavily signposted that there are dangers below, like water that is acidic and poisonous, like roaming monsters and horrors. Just walking through one of the areas underground would result in taking acid damage on failed CON saves. An area where the very environment is a harsh thing, but quite, quite fun. Mix this with a fight...yikes it can be stressful.
Wild Magic
Blatantly stolen from Gnomengarde, but I have an entire island in one of my worlds where the fallen ash of the volcano that dominates the landscape has covered the entire area in wild magics. I introduced non-RAW stuff, like the magic making you feel drunk, or energised, or obsessed with completing a mundane task (darning the hole in a pair of socks). Now pair this with combat and it can be quite fun too.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
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