I'm fairly new to D&D and I've managed to get a regular group going at one of my local game clubs every two weeks. Firstly all my players seem to be enjoying it (last week 3 players ditched a 40k tournament to play D&D which is awesome!) but I can't help but know I've screwed up.
So I wanted to run them through the Phandalin starter set which was going great when I had 4 players, as people have watched us though more people have joined in and now we're up to 8 players for a game meant for 5?. I've decided I can't cope with any more players but this has obviously made the encounters too easy and I haven't found a way to fix it.
Here's what I've tried so far by looking in the DMG:
I've increased the HP of the Redbrands to 25 which in the last game got absolutely annihilated by some amazing rolls so I'm not sure if this works. I rolled a 3 and went last and between them got a few natural 20's... Rogues man....
I tried increasing the number of goblins (core stats) during the Cragmaw Hideout according to the players combined XP for a normal fight and added multipliers for enemies. This nearly killed two players, fortunately a player gave me an out by deciding to actually parlay with Yeemiks when the fight had turned against them.
I honestly think the solution is somewhere in between these but I can't decide and I know that increasing stats changed the CR rating and therefore XP.
They've managed to get the location for Cragmaw Castle which is where they want to head next and I'm worried that if I get it wrong, it won't be the hard fight it should be but a party wipe instead.
I've read that adding more monsters but splitting them into two groups with separate initiative scores works well but it isn't something I've tried.
8 is a very large group and hard for experienced DMs. 4 or 5 is ideal. However, if you’re all having fun, then you’re doing it right. It is a balancing act that we all struggle with. The players don’t know the stats of the creatures encountered when encountered. You can adjust the number of creatures the HP, the AC, all as needed. If two almost died then I would say you’re at the right challenge level. We always get close, and it is that struggle that is fun.
I use an initiative tracker for the iPad and this helps take a lot of the administrative overhead off. It rolls initiative for the creatures, tracks the players and creatures, and all their conditions and has all the creatures already in a database. It makes it easier to add 3 more goblins if needed. Highly recommended if that is an option for you.
My first piece of advice is to add one - and only one - 5th level bard magic user with a couple of Hold Person spells, a bit of Silence, a Stinking Cloud spell, and perhaps an invisibility ring. Lets pretend it is one of the Bugbears, because lets face it, they wouldn't let the rabble keep the ring. And he is out near the goblins because he is the group spy who keeps the king informed on what the rable have been plotting. Have this baddie do nothing more than hold up half the party until those in front are in genuine trouble. Which should only take two or three turns if the other baddies have cover, ample ammunition, and a healthy desire to absolutely kill these invaders. Consider that a goblin archer could perch on a very small piece of scaffolding in one of the ruined towers and fire on the heroes from above and behind without having to worry that they can even get to him. If they start to climb the wall below him, well, that eliminates that pesky Dexterity benefit.
Second: Remember also that goblins a) are not exactly stupid, and b) like to play with their food. Don't keep hitting the ones that are down because "if we keeps some alive, we gets to listen to them screaming as we chews off their fingers". This gives the injured a chance to get their potion or other aid into play without getting another arrow. Putting a pair of archers on the wall above the 2 on the map with three quarter cover should soften up a couple of your PCs enough to make them want to hide behind their meat shield (if he isn't stuck in a Hold Person).
Third: Play the villians by ear. I am a bugbear bard and these berks just blew past me like I wasn't there! Time to hide in the woods and pretend I got whooped when they came in... If they don't come back out... And if they do, maybe they'll be all beat up and I can get them then... Or better yet, I'll go get Targor and bring his warband back! Perhaps you could make the king's two loyal guards into first-class gladiators who will "honorably" battle anyone in melee for the right to see the king (while a concealed third goes to warn him to be ready). Of course, an honorable hobgoblin just might think everyone puts poiison on his greatsword just like he does.... If the PC's are walking through the castle like they own it have the local shaman drop a darkness on their heads while his two servants beat pots together all around the sphere. The PC's will freak out, I promise: "Everything goes dark and you immediately hear a massive amount of metal clanging all around you!" Dramatic pause. "What do you want to do now?" And the pots are a great way to ensure the entire keep is ready from that point on for the invaders.
Now, as you pointed out, you don't want a TPK so ask the PC's often and as if you are actually worried their characters are all about to die: "How many hit points do you have right now?" like once per 10 minutes of game time. Also, stare at your papers and say things like (quietly): "How are they suppose to make it through that at this level?" Preferably when a couple players are talking.so only one or two have a chance to hear you. This has the double effect of increasing the Players' caution levels (buying you time to think) and increasing the terror anyone should feel when invading an armed camp. Your players are more capable than you will ever be of causing themselves harm. I would also tell them that the goblins won't kill them... especially not the pretty young ones... Then, if they are all downed and defeated, let them wake up to a bucket of warm urine in their faces directly in front of King Grol who orders them to be held in a pit until they can be sold to the Drow. Targor returns and sets them free in exchange for their help in killing Grol and leaving him to rule the Cragmaw.... Just a thought.
I honestly didn't set out with the intention of having 8 players but the players that approached at the end of our sessions were enthusiastic about wanting to give it a go after seeing how much fun we were having. I didn't want to turn them away because they might not have given it a chance otherwise. I hope after this adventure they might want to split off and make another group, I know one is interested in the DM part.
I have an initiative tracking tool which seems easy to use but I was just trying to keep things simple with a paper tracker. I might have to have a serious look at actually using it. :D
I agree with the difficulty, I want it to be challenging but not overkill, it's a fine line that I can't quite figure out. I think some of these encounters have made them a little overconfident to be honest whilst I've been trying to find a balance. I honestly can't wait for them to find that Young Green Dragon. :D
Thanks for those ideas Mezveranac! They haven't come across anything yet that can hold person so maybe it's time to start interfering with their characters which should cause a degree of panic. I think I'll use and keep some of these scenarios just in case!
You could possibly mention to them you are struggling to balance it, and run 2 separate sessions with 4 players instead? This would obviously require more time, but if the players are cool with it you wouldnt have to worry about adjusting anything.
Give some baddies more hp, maybe race some AC, use a variety of enemies that can crowd control or take some of the players skills away.
Although if you are actively refusing to tpk them you are already limiting yourself because the monsters aren't playing to win.
I'm not actively refusing to TPK them. If they screw with that Green Dragon in that campaign I will act as if I was the dragon with intruders in my tower, players will be devoured. :)
What I'm trying to avoid is altering an encounter too much to the point where there's no chance of success for the group. I want my encounters to be challenging and risky but not overkill by me screwing up the balance.
Hi all,
I'm fairly new to D&D and I've managed to get a regular group going at one of my local game clubs every two weeks. Firstly all my players seem to be enjoying it (last week 3 players ditched a 40k tournament to play D&D which is awesome!) but I can't help but know I've screwed up.
So I wanted to run them through the Phandalin starter set which was going great when I had 4 players, as people have watched us though more people have joined in and now we're up to 8 players for a game meant for 5?. I've decided I can't cope with any more players but this has obviously made the encounters too easy and I haven't found a way to fix it.
Here's what I've tried so far by looking in the DMG:
I've increased the HP of the Redbrands to 25 which in the last game got absolutely annihilated by some amazing rolls so I'm not sure if this works. I rolled a 3 and went last and between them got a few natural 20's... Rogues man....
I tried increasing the number of goblins (core stats) during the Cragmaw Hideout according to the players combined XP for a normal fight and added multipliers for enemies. This nearly killed two players, fortunately a player gave me an out by deciding to actually parlay with Yeemiks when the fight had turned against them.
I honestly think the solution is somewhere in between these but I can't decide and I know that increasing stats changed the CR rating and therefore XP.
They've managed to get the location for Cragmaw Castle which is where they want to head next and I'm worried that if I get it wrong, it won't be the hard fight it should be but a party wipe instead.
I've read that adding more monsters but splitting them into two groups with separate initiative scores works well but it isn't something I've tried.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated. :)
8 is a very large group and hard for experienced DMs. 4 or 5 is ideal. However, if you’re all having fun, then you’re doing it right. It is a balancing act that we all struggle with. The players don’t know the stats of the creatures encountered when encountered. You can adjust the number of creatures the HP, the AC, all as needed. If two almost died then I would say you’re at the right challenge level. We always get close, and it is that struggle that is fun.
I use an initiative tracker for the iPad and this helps take a lot of the administrative overhead off. It rolls initiative for the creatures, tracks the players and creatures, and all their conditions and has all the creatures already in a database. It makes it easier to add 3 more goblins if needed. Highly recommended if that is an option for you.
The fact that you are worried is promising.
My first piece of advice is to add one - and only one - 5th level bard magic user with a couple of Hold Person spells, a bit of Silence, a Stinking Cloud spell, and perhaps an invisibility ring. Lets pretend it is one of the Bugbears, because lets face it, they wouldn't let the rabble keep the ring. And he is out near the goblins because he is the group spy who keeps the king informed on what the rable have been plotting. Have this baddie do nothing more than hold up half the party until those in front are in genuine trouble. Which should only take two or three turns if the other baddies have cover, ample ammunition, and a healthy desire to absolutely kill these invaders. Consider that a goblin archer could perch on a very small piece of scaffolding in one of the ruined towers and fire on the heroes from above and behind without having to worry that they can even get to him. If they start to climb the wall below him, well, that eliminates that pesky Dexterity benefit.
Second: Remember also that goblins a) are not exactly stupid, and b) like to play with their food. Don't keep hitting the ones that are down because "if we keeps some alive, we gets to listen to them screaming as we chews off their fingers". This gives the injured a chance to get their potion or other aid into play without getting another arrow. Putting a pair of archers on the wall above the 2 on the map with three quarter cover should soften up a couple of your PCs enough to make them want to hide behind their meat shield (if he isn't stuck in a Hold Person).
Third: Play the villians by ear. I am a bugbear bard and these berks just blew past me like I wasn't there! Time to hide in the woods and pretend I got whooped when they came in... If they don't come back out... And if they do, maybe they'll be all beat up and I can get them then... Or better yet, I'll go get Targor and bring his warband back! Perhaps you could make the king's two loyal guards into first-class gladiators who will "honorably" battle anyone in melee for the right to see the king (while a concealed third goes to warn him to be ready). Of course, an honorable hobgoblin just might think everyone puts poiison on his greatsword just like he does.... If the PC's are walking through the castle like they own it have the local shaman drop a darkness on their heads while his two servants beat pots together all around the sphere. The PC's will freak out, I promise: "Everything goes dark and you immediately hear a massive amount of metal clanging all around you!" Dramatic pause. "What do you want to do now?" And the pots are a great way to ensure the entire keep is ready from that point on for the invaders.
Now, as you pointed out, you don't want a TPK so ask the PC's often and as if you are actually worried their characters are all about to die: "How many hit points do you have right now?" like once per 10 minutes of game time. Also, stare at your papers and say things like (quietly): "How are they suppose to make it through that at this level?" Preferably when a couple players are talking.so only one or two have a chance to hear you. This has the double effect of increasing the Players' caution levels (buying you time to think) and increasing the terror anyone should feel when invading an armed camp. Your players are more capable than you will ever be of causing themselves harm. I would also tell them that the goblins won't kill them... especially not the pretty young ones... Then, if they are all downed and defeated, let them wake up to a bucket of warm urine in their faces directly in front of King Grol who orders them to be held in a pit until they can be sold to the Drow. Targor returns and sets them free in exchange for their help in killing Grol and leaving him to rule the Cragmaw.... Just a thought.
Good Luck.
I do not like the word... prisoner. It implies a helpless state, and I assure you, I am never helpless.
--Artemis Entreri
I honestly didn't set out with the intention of having 8 players but the players that approached at the end of our sessions were enthusiastic about wanting to give it a go after seeing how much fun we were having. I didn't want to turn them away because they might not have given it a chance otherwise. I hope after this adventure they might want to split off and make another group, I know one is interested in the DM part.
I have an initiative tracking tool which seems easy to use but I was just trying to keep things simple with a paper tracker. I might have to have a serious look at actually using it. :D
I agree with the difficulty, I want it to be challenging but not overkill, it's a fine line that I can't quite figure out. I think some of these encounters have made them a little overconfident to be honest whilst I've been trying to find a balance. I honestly can't wait for them to find that Young Green Dragon. :D
Thanks for those ideas Mezveranac! They haven't come across anything yet that can hold person so maybe it's time to start interfering with their characters which should cause a degree of panic. I think I'll use and keep some of these scenarios just in case!
Give some baddies more hp, maybe race some AC, use a variety of enemies that can crowd control or take some of the players skills away.
Although if you are actively refusing to tpk them you are already limiting yourself because the monsters aren't playing to win.
You could possibly mention to them you are struggling to balance it, and run 2 separate sessions with 4 players instead? This would obviously require more time, but if the players are cool with it you wouldnt have to worry about adjusting anything.
I'm not actively refusing to TPK them. If they screw with that Green Dragon in that campaign I will act as if I was the dragon with intruders in my tower, players will be devoured. :)
What I'm trying to avoid is altering an encounter too much to the point where there's no chance of success for the group. I want my encounters to be challenging and risky but not overkill by me screwing up the balance.
I do not like the word... prisoner. It implies a helpless state, and I assure you, I am never helpless.
--Artemis Entreri