I'd rather give the instigator +20 to initiative than houserule start initiative in mid-turn order.
I agree. It is no fun for characters with high rolls to miss out on the first round of combat because they rolled high. And certain class features wouldn't be as beneficial.
We use the 'roll initiative and the instigator goes first, followed in order by whomever had the next initiative'. Yes ,that means the first round starts somewhere in the middle of initiative order, but since those acting first (before the attack begins) would be doing non-combat things (they don't know the attack is coming), it works out.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
This is all a lot of wordplay to justify DM's not giving a surprise round to either side - when the other side is ambushed.
IK IK Surprise round was never RAW
The side that ambushed ALL get to go. Then normal imitative order takes hold. That is the most thematically correct way to play the scenario in most cases. Goodness what is the big deal with letting the players feel the excitement of surprising the baddies and getting a big round off - or the agony of walking into a trap and being behind the 8 ball as they just took a round of damage before they knew there was a fight.
D&D is a role playing game with rules as a road map - not a test of twisting rules or using dumb rules to make the player experience as difficult and unfun as possible.
I bet half the folks here would take issue with a high Dex - high acrobatics - high sleight of hand - high level rogue misty stepping on to the back of a dragon and passing reasonable checks to stay there while the dragon tries to shake him off stabbing it with his dagger. - The RP - theatrics of it is as important and fun as the mechanics of it.
The side that ambushed ALL get to go. Then normal imitative order takes hold. That is the most thematically correct way to play the scenario in most cases. Goodness what is the big deal with letting the players feel the excitement of surprising the baddies and getting a big round off - or the agony of walking into a trap and being behind the 8 ball as they just took a round of damage before they knew there was a fight.
That's the way it worked in 2014. And the problem it created was that at the pacing of 5th edition combat, it was way too big an advantage for the side that got surprise.
The side that ambushed ALL get to go. Then normal imitative order takes hold. That is the most thematically correct way to play the scenario in most cases. Goodness what is the big deal with letting the players feel the excitement of surprising the baddies and getting a big round off - or the agony of walking into a trap and being behind the 8 ball as they just took a round of damage before they knew there was a fight.
That's the way it worked in 2014. And the problem it created was that at the pacing of 5th edition combat, it was way too big an advantage for the side that got surprise.
Well I will be honest as a DM I love hearing the group strategize and come up with nutty ideas some of which will work and some wont given the layout of the encounter.
I encourage creativity and if that means they got through one of my fights a little faster ... well that's why you always have a few back up contingency plans on the next map to slow them down.
I really enjoy letting the players think of outside the box ways to use the tools in their toolbox and to the degree possible without letting it break my encounters I allow it.
After a while - Barb - Paladin go tank - range do range - healer heal if you just play in that paradigm while of course its fun for power gamers (love me some power gamers) a lot of the more creative types want to do nutty stuff and that is fun too.
Scouting out ahead in a canyon dropping boulders at a choke point - on a caravan from a cliff then having difficult terrain dropping oil and setting the whole place on fire - love it . I find for my groups at least it gives them a different vibe than the standard hack and slash (and the standard hack and slash is great) it just adds variety that I think they appreciate.
The side that ambushed ALL get to go. Then normal imitative order takes hold. That is the most thematically correct way to play the scenario in most cases. Goodness what is the big deal with letting the players feel the excitement of surprising the baddies and getting a big round off - or the agony of walking into a trap and being behind the 8 ball as they just took a round of damage before they knew there was a fight.
That's the way it worked in 2014. And the problem it created was that at the pacing of 5th edition combat, it was way too big an advantage for the side that got surprise.
This is why I like the "readied" actions more, because it isn't as big of a swing as the 2014 surprise round because it is limited to one thing - either move, action (1 attack only), or bonus action - and it is risky for spellcasters to hold a levelled spell since they must spend a spellslot for every 6 seconds they are holding it. But it still feels like an ambush / rewards planning and strategizing.
I agree. It is no fun for characters with high rolls to miss out on the first round of combat because they rolled high. And certain class features wouldn't be as beneficial.
We use the 'roll initiative and the instigator goes first, followed in order by whomever had the next initiative'. Yes ,that means the first round starts somewhere in the middle of initiative order, but since those acting first (before the attack begins) would be doing non-combat things (they don't know the attack is coming), it works out.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
This is all a lot of wordplay to justify DM's not giving a surprise round to either side - when the other side is ambushed.
IK IK Surprise round was never RAW
The side that ambushed ALL get to go. Then normal imitative order takes hold. That is the most thematically correct way to play the scenario in most cases. Goodness what is the big deal with letting the players feel the excitement of surprising the baddies and getting a big round off - or the agony of walking into a trap and being behind the 8 ball as they just took a round of damage before they knew there was a fight.
D&D is a role playing game with rules as a road map - not a test of twisting rules or using dumb rules to make the player experience as difficult and unfun as possible.
I bet half the folks here would take issue with a high Dex - high acrobatics - high sleight of hand - high level rogue misty stepping on to the back of a dragon and passing reasonable checks to stay there while the dragon tries to shake him off stabbing it with his dagger. - The RP - theatrics of it is as important and fun as the mechanics of it.
At least that is how I see it - ymmv
That's the way it worked in 2014. And the problem it created was that at the pacing of 5th edition combat, it was way too big an advantage for the side that got surprise.
Well I will be honest as a DM I love hearing the group strategize and come up with nutty ideas some of which will work and some wont given the layout of the encounter.
I encourage creativity and if that means they got through one of my fights a little faster ... well that's why you always have a few back up contingency plans on the next map to slow them down.
I really enjoy letting the players think of outside the box ways to use the tools in their toolbox and to the degree possible without letting it break my encounters I allow it.
After a while - Barb - Paladin go tank - range do range - healer heal if you just play in that paradigm while of course its fun for power gamers (love me some power gamers) a lot of the more creative types want to do nutty stuff and that is fun too.
Scouting out ahead in a canyon dropping boulders at a choke point - on a caravan from a cliff then having difficult terrain dropping oil and setting the whole place on fire - love it . I find for my groups at least it gives them a different vibe than the standard hack and slash (and the standard hack and slash is great) it just adds variety that I think they appreciate.
This is why I like the "readied" actions more, because it isn't as big of a swing as the 2014 surprise round because it is limited to one thing - either move, action (1 attack only), or bonus action - and it is risky for spellcasters to hold a levelled spell since they must spend a spellslot for every 6 seconds they are holding it. But it still feels like an ambush / rewards planning and strategizing.