I wanted to get some second opinions an issue I've been having with one of my campaigns. My Artificer has taken the Enlarge/Reduce spell. They want to use it to cast on the Barbarian PC. The problem is this: the Barbarian is a Giant subclass, so when he goes into a rage his size automatically becomes Large, so if he's about 6.5 feet to start, he doubles to about 12 feet. If then my Artificer casts Enlarge on him, he becomes Huge and grows to 24 feet. The problem has become this: does the character's size effect his speed? My players seem convinced that since he takes up 3x3 squares as a Huge creature, he should be able to move 15 ft 6 times instead of his regular 5 ft 6 times.
What do you think? I'm trying to allow them to have fun with this without letting them break the game and destroy by bad guys in one round. Any suggestions for how to control this shenanigan?
His speed does not change. If it did, it would say so. If your players need an explanation, point out that his weight has also increased substantially and that will slow him down.
Also note, his reach does not increase, nor does anything else not specifically mentioned in the effects. Things only do what they say they do; they don’t imply anything.
I’d also add, the bigger size means more enemies can surround and attack him at once.
If the spell and the ability do not mention an increase to speed, then speed is not changed.
For balance purposes, spells don't do things they don't explicitly say they do, with few exceptions. Like yes, you have some creative wiggle room with minor illusion that might require dm interpretation, but with Enlarge/Reduce, it says pretty explicitly that for enlarged targets, their size moves a category up, they have advantage on strength checks and saves, and they get an extra 1d4 damage on attacks. That's it.
If you need help describing it in a way your players find plausible, describe the suddenly massive barbarian moving slowly but powerfully like a giant godzilla monster, or like Ant-Man when he first goes giant in Civil War. Powerful, but proportionally slower.
I’m one those Giant Barbs with an item granting enlarge.
Ya 32’ tall is awesome.
No you don’t get added movement. Yes you take up more space which as noted lets more things flank you. That’s not a bonus that’s the dms chance to poke you with a lot of sharp pointy sticks.
Large is 2x2 huge is 3x3 gargantuan is 4x4.
Reach is increased by 5 for the barbarian rage.
Height x2 weight x8. Weapon damage +1d4.
The weapon damage is not mentioned in the rage side, so I leave that up to you. My DM gives it to me. I’m not sold on the weight thing, 500*8=4000 lbs sounds right that’s a rhino. Now if we x8 that again that’s 32k pounds or 16 tons, dats big. But not that big, it’s slightly bigger than an African Bull Elephant, so I guess it’s in the right range.
Now the main reason I do this is grapple. Pining Mr not so big now dragon to the ground (0 movement) is spectacular. So is playing Hodor with castle gates.
”Enlarge. The target's size doubles in all dimensions, and its weight is multiplied by eight. This growth increases its size by one category-- from Medium to Large, for example. If there isn't enough room for the target to double its size, the creature or object attains the maximum possible size in the space available. Until the spell ends, the target also has advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws. The target's weapons also grow to match its new size. While these weapons are enlarged, the target's attacks with them deal 1d4 extra damage.”
You could also put your party up against a couple groups of spellcasters that specialize in abjuration and transmutation magic. Let the casters use Counterspell and/or Dispel Magic on the Barbarian, right before they themselves cast Enlarge/Reduce to shrink him down to a Small creature. After this happens a few times, your party should take the hint and find some other strategies.
There's nothing that your PCs are doing that are violating the rules. Everyone else above is correct that there's nothing in Enlarge/Reduce that specifies that the creatures speed changes. So, if speed is breaking your game, RAW it shouldn't.
I would point out the spell specifies that weapon damage only increases by d4. Does this mean that since the barbarian changes from medium, to large, to huge that you're giving the barbarian a d4*2 increase to their damage? [BTW, according to the MM, a creature that is 24 ft tall is gargantuan, not huge]
A couple strategies that you can use to limit the enlarge-the-raging-barbarian tactic are:
Move through huge barbarian's space without provoking an opportunity attack: according to the 2014 PHB: "you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you." (p. 191) This means that creatures 2 sizes smaller can move through the space of another creature without triggering an opportunity attack. So, have tiny/small/medium creatures attack, then dash as a bonus action. Some creatures like Goblin have this ability specified in their stat block (i.e., nimble escape).
Use confined locations: put the PCs in smaller spaces, e.g., caverns, dungeons, etc., all of which have ceilings < 24 ft tall. In general, use obstacles on your map. A huge creature cannot fit through certain spaces, e.g., under a tree, etc. Or give the enemies the ability to fly, etc.
Topple/Trip: have enemies topple, trip the barbarian. RAW regarding topple doesn't include any info about limitations due to size :)
Ride the barbarian: according to the DMG "a suitably large opponent can be treated as terrain for the purpose of jumping onto its back or clinging to a limb. After making any ability checks necessary to get into position and onto the larger creature, the smaller creature uses its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by the target's Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If it wins the contest, the smaller creature successfully moves into the target creature's space and clings to its body. While in the target's space, the smaller creature moves with the target and has advantage on attack rolls against it." (p. 271) A problem is that Enlarge/Reduce says the enlarged creature has advantage on strength checks :/
As stated :) ... rules do what they say they do, no more and no less.
Enlarge makes them one size larger and adds a d4 to damage multiplying height by 2 and weight by 8. (note that the 8 comes from 2^3 ... doubling the dimensions of something in every direction increases its volume by 8). ... and that is ALL it does.
It doesn't increase reach "but what about their extra long arms?" "Sorry"
It doesn't increase speed "but what about their extra long legs?" "Sorry"
Yes there is logic behind some of this but Enlarge is magic - the effect only does what it says it does. It doesn't increase speed, it doesn't increase reach and it doesn't increase strength.
Also, keep in mind that the Enlarge has to be cast AFTER the barbarian rages. The rage explicitly changes the creature size to large so that a small or medium creature both become Large - it doesn't increase by one size. This also means that if a creature is already large from Enlarge then its size doesn't change.
It is fun to see a huge raging barbarian grappling something gargantuan but it isn't going to break your game AND it is a tactic that only really works outdoors. Cave, dungeon, underground - many confined spaces will end up squeezing such a large creature. Keep in mind that even a large room in a dungeon (say 100'x100') that happens to have a 15' ceiling is not going to fit a 24' tall enlarged barbarian ... and in the end it is only an extra d4 of damage/attack.
I wanted to get some second opinions an issue I've been having with one of my campaigns. My Artificer has taken the Enlarge/Reduce spell. They want to use it to cast on the Barbarian PC. The problem is this: the Barbarian is a Giant subclass, so when he goes into a rage his size automatically becomes Large, so if he's about 6.5 feet to start, he doubles to about 12 feet. If then my Artificer casts Enlarge on him, he becomes Huge and grows to 24 feet. The problem has become this: does the character's size effect his speed? My players seem convinced that since he takes up 3x3 squares as a Huge creature, he should be able to move 15 ft 6 times instead of his regular 5 ft 6 times.
What do you think? I'm trying to allow them to have fun with this without letting them break the game and destroy by bad guys in one round. Any suggestions for how to control this shenanigan?
-- A Tired DM
The ability doesn't alter speed so it doesn't change. (Also the actual giants in the game only move 40ft on average.)
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Hello!
I wanted to get some second opinions an issue I've been having with one of my campaigns. My Artificer has taken the Enlarge/Reduce spell. They want to use it to cast on the Barbarian PC. The problem is this: the Barbarian is a Giant subclass, so when he goes into a rage his size automatically becomes Large, so if he's about 6.5 feet to start, he doubles to about 12 feet. If then my Artificer casts Enlarge on him, he becomes Huge and grows to 24 feet. The problem has become this: does the character's size effect his speed? My players seem convinced that since he takes up 3x3 squares as a Huge creature, he should be able to move 15 ft 6 times instead of his regular 5 ft 6 times.
What do you think? I'm trying to allow them to have fun with this without letting them break the game and destroy by bad guys in one round. Any suggestions for how to control this shenanigan?
-- A Tired DM
His speed does not change. If it did, it would say so.
If your players need an explanation, point out that his weight has also increased substantially and that will slow him down.
Also note, his reach does not increase, nor does anything else not specifically mentioned in the effects. Things only do what they say they do; they don’t imply anything.
I’d also add, the bigger size means more enemies can surround and attack him at once.
If the spell and the ability do not mention an increase to speed, then speed is not changed.
For balance purposes, spells don't do things they don't explicitly say they do, with few exceptions. Like yes, you have some creative wiggle room with minor illusion that might require dm interpretation, but with Enlarge/Reduce, it says pretty explicitly that for enlarged targets, their size moves a category up, they have advantage on strength checks and saves, and they get an extra 1d4 damage on attacks. That's it.
If you need help describing it in a way your players find plausible, describe the suddenly massive barbarian moving slowly but powerfully like a giant godzilla monster, or like Ant-Man when he first goes giant in Civil War. Powerful, but proportionally slower.
I’m one those Giant Barbs with an item granting enlarge.
Ya 32’ tall is awesome.
No you don’t get added movement. Yes you take up more space which as noted lets more things flank you. That’s not a bonus that’s the dms chance to poke you with a lot of sharp pointy sticks.
Large is 2x2 huge is 3x3 gargantuan is 4x4.
Reach is increased by 5 for the barbarian rage.
Height x2 weight x8. Weapon damage +1d4.
The weapon damage is not mentioned in the rage side, so I leave that up to you. My DM gives it to me. I’m not sold on the weight thing, 500*8=4000 lbs sounds right that’s a rhino. Now if we x8 that again that’s 32k pounds or 16 tons, dats big. But not that big, it’s slightly bigger than an African Bull Elephant, so I guess it’s in the right range.
Now the main reason I do this is grapple. Pining Mr not so big now dragon to the ground (0 movement) is spectacular. So is playing Hodor with castle gates.
”Enlarge. The target's size doubles in all dimensions, and its weight is multiplied by eight. This growth increases its size by one category-- from Medium to Large, for example. If there isn't enough room for the target to double its size, the creature or object attains the maximum possible size in the space available. Until the spell ends, the target also has advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws. The target's weapons also grow to match its new size. While these weapons are enlarged, the target's attacks with them deal 1d4 extra damage.”
You can also crack down on the spell components. Gag or restrain your artificer so they can't speak or move to cast the spell.
If you want to get really dastardly, you can ask about their store of powdered iron.
Thanks,
- Brad (he/him)
Player Since 2020, DM Since 2022, Nerd Since Way Back
You could also put your party up against a couple groups of spellcasters that specialize in abjuration and transmutation magic. Let the casters use Counterspell and/or Dispel Magic on the Barbarian, right before they themselves cast Enlarge/Reduce to shrink him down to a Small creature. After this happens a few times, your party should take the hint and find some other strategies.
There's nothing that your PCs are doing that are violating the rules. Everyone else above is correct that there's nothing in Enlarge/Reduce that specifies that the creatures speed changes. So, if speed is breaking your game, RAW it shouldn't.
I would point out the spell specifies that weapon damage only increases by d4. Does this mean that since the barbarian changes from medium, to large, to huge that you're giving the barbarian a d4*2 increase to their damage? [BTW, according to the MM, a creature that is 24 ft tall is gargantuan, not huge]
A couple strategies that you can use to limit the enlarge-the-raging-barbarian tactic are:
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
I won't bother with explaining, since I'd really just be paraphrasing the above comments.
No. His speed doesn't change.
As stated :) ... rules do what they say they do, no more and no less.
Enlarge makes them one size larger and adds a d4 to damage multiplying height by 2 and weight by 8. (note that the 8 comes from 2^3 ... doubling the dimensions of something in every direction increases its volume by 8). ... and that is ALL it does.
It doesn't increase reach "but what about their extra long arms?" "Sorry"
It doesn't increase speed "but what about their extra long legs?" "Sorry"
Yes there is logic behind some of this but Enlarge is magic - the effect only does what it says it does. It doesn't increase speed, it doesn't increase reach and it doesn't increase strength.
Also, keep in mind that the Enlarge has to be cast AFTER the barbarian rages. The rage explicitly changes the creature size to large so that a small or medium creature both become Large - it doesn't increase by one size. This also means that if a creature is already large from Enlarge then its size doesn't change.
It is fun to see a huge raging barbarian grappling something gargantuan but it isn't going to break your game AND it is a tactic that only really works outdoors. Cave, dungeon, underground - many confined spaces will end up squeezing such a large creature. Keep in mind that even a large room in a dungeon (say 100'x100') that happens to have a 15' ceiling is not going to fit a 24' tall enlarged barbarian ... and in the end it is only an extra d4 of damage/attack.
The ability doesn't alter speed so it doesn't change. (Also the actual giants in the game only move 40ft on average.)