Hi all my players are currently hunting for a serial killer who is moving like a ghost through the city, dodging multiple magical detection checkpoints and increased guards. So they're setting up a lure to get him to come a specific place and the cleric suggested to set up a GOW with the trigger of "activate if someone who is protected from detection magic passes by" (or something to that effect).
The serial killer is actually doing this. However, I'm not sure GOW works as a way round this - although you can set the trigger, there's nothing in GOW that would suggest it has the power to magically detect people who are obscuring themselves from magical detection. At the same time, I don't want to just ignore my player's creativity. So I've two questions:
1) Do you think it's actually possible to use GOW in this way?
2) Assuming it doesn't work, any suggestions on how I can reward the player's creativity?
If it's something that doesn't work, they should know that, or at most have to make a not-particularly-hard arcana check to realize it.
However, it's a clever trick, and I see no reason not to let it work. Nondetection, for instance, specifically guards against Divination, and Glyph is not.
Yes, you can find arguments why it wouldn't, but ultimately this falls under the general rule of "Don't scuttle your players' cool ideas just because they'd solve things in a way you didn't anticipate".
I generally assume that spells that protect against divination also protect against non-divination spells that would reveal traits that normally require divination to determine. The rules are rather silent on what sensory capability magical traps have, though.
It would be nice if there was a general rule on how they work, though -- say, it's equivalent to an invisible observer with passive perception equal to the spell save DC, and certain sensory traits (most of them seem to require a detect creature type ability -- which does not currently exist).
As far as rewarding creativity goes... just tell them it's a clever idea, but GoW doesn't work that way in your game.
Sounds like an interesting work around but make a note of one line in the spell "The glyph is nearly invisible and requires a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC to be found." So, regardless of the trigger the players use, the Killer could potentially see the Glyph and find alternate methods of entry/exit from the area.
Maybe use Passive Perception or Investigation when the killer enters the area to see if they detect anything unusual and then use an investigation check to find the glyph.
EDIT: if the killer does locate the glyph then you could turn it into a chase scene, use skill challenges as the PC;s set of in pursuit. If the chase is in a town or city then it might be worth taking a look at the Spring Heeled Jack chase from Assassins Creed: Syndicate , Jack is a villian who attacks/killers people and uses smoke bombs, grapple hooks and other things to get around and might prove some action beyond just trying to blow him up or beat him to death.
1) Do you think it's actually possible to use GOW in this way? - I would say no, as it makes it so trivial to defeat magical protections that it can easily break your world down the line. If it was a one-shot, sure allow it that's fun, but I'd be very careful allowing that in a long-term campaign.
2) Assuming it doesn't work, any suggestions on how I can reward the player's creativity? - Suggest to them some alternatives that would work, e.g. a person carrying weapons, or a person covering their face, or a person that is invisible. OR have the killer "fall" for the trap but not set off the glyph and give them an insight check or something to potentially catch a glimpse of someone suspicious who is in fact the killer.
At first, it sounds like a great plan. However, I do have one concern. The wording of the "Glyph of Warding" spell states: "You can refine the trigger so that only creatures of certain types activate it (for example, the glyph could be set to affect Aberrations). You can also set conditions for creatures that don’t trigger the glyph, such as those who say a certain password."
So my question is - if someone is using non-detection magic on themselves, does that constitute a "creature type"? I would say no. But again, that is just one example given in the spell description. So my impression is that other types of triggers could be valid as well, at the DMs discretion.
So sure. Go ahead and do it. The players clearly put the effort into coming up with what sounds like a reasonable plan. So go ahead and reward them for that effort. BUT... make sure they are aware that they may want to use non-detection magic themselves one day. And now they know it won't necessarily offer them the foolproof protection they may have been expecting.
1) A couple things to keep in mind ... a glyph only holds an explosive rune or a spell that the character can cast. What spell would the player want to place on the rune that would even be useful in catching this NPC? Most spells have a limited duration and many also have a saving throw.
2) The spell itself doesn't go into the details of how the detection works. The example does include distinguishing on creature type for example. However, could glyph of warding obtain information that would be unavailable to other divination spells or an observer? I would say no.
For example, a creature that is shielded from magical detection walks past the glyph. This creature would either appear as non magical to the glyph or would not be detected at all since the magic makes the creature appear invisible to any other magics trying to detect them. The glyph is not an all powerful, all knowing source of information.
Anyway, I would probably rule that a glyph effectively uses divination magic of some sort to detect the trigger. So a creature immune to detection via divination would not trigger the trap.
In terms of interacting with the player, I would explain how these game features work and how their suggestion is a great idea but doesn't work with how magic works in this game world. (unless you simply decide you want it to work but personally, I don't think it makes much sense :) ). I would also indicate that this is information that their character knows simply because they have learned to cast glyph of warning and are aware of its capabilities and its limitations.
My current tentative rule about GoW (and similar spells) is that:
It detects invisible creatures within its space (i.e. invisible creatures that walk over the glyph trigger it). This is equivalent to blindsight.
It detects creature type within its space. This can be blocked by spells such as Nondetection or Nystul's Magic Aura. A glyph could probably be set to trigger on creatures with no apparent creature type.
It has darkvision and normal hearing, as if there were an invisible creature within its space, with passive perception equal to the caster's spell save DC.
However, this is not backed by any official rules, it's just what I think is needed to make it function properly, without being overpowered. For the OPs purpose, if they can actually get the killer to pass through a 10' diameter circle, a glyph might do something, depending on the details of the magic the killer is using.
1) A couple things to keep in mind ... a glyph only holds an explosive rune or a spell that the character can cast. What spell would the player want to place on the rune that would even be useful in catching this NPC? Most spells have a limited duration and many also have a saving throw.
Depending on how the trap is set, dispel magic at the caster's max level (to get rid of whatever is blocking the divination magic) might be the best choice
2) The spell itself doesn't go into the details of how the detection works. The example does include distinguishing on creature type for example. However, could glyph of warding obtain information that would be unavailable to other divination spells or an observer? I would say no.
For example, a creature that is shielded from magical detection walks past the glyph. This creature would either appear as non magical to the glyph or would not be detected at all since the magic makes the creature appear invisible to any other magics trying to detect them. The glyph is not an all powerful, all knowing source of information.
Anyway, I would probably rule that a glyph effectively uses divination magic of some sort to detect the trigger. So a creature immune to detection via divination would not trigger the trap.
In terms of interacting with the player, I would explain how these game features work and how their suggestion is a great idea but doesn't work with how magic works in this game world. (unless you simply decide you want it to work but personally, I don't think it makes much sense :) ). I would also indicate that this is information that their character knows simply because they have learned to cast glyph of warning and are aware of its capabilities and its limitations.
I tend to agree with this, but there would still be ways around it. For instance, the glyph could be bypassed by wearing some visible item (a blue rose or whatever), which of course an invisible creature couldn't do, and the killer wouldn't know to wear even if they are visible
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Hi all my players are currently hunting for a serial killer who is moving like a ghost through the city, dodging multiple magical detection checkpoints and increased guards. So they're setting up a lure to get him to come a specific place and the cleric suggested to set up a GOW with the trigger of "activate if someone who is protected from detection magic passes by" (or something to that effect).
The serial killer is actually doing this. However, I'm not sure GOW works as a way round this - although you can set the trigger, there's nothing in GOW that would suggest it has the power to magically detect people who are obscuring themselves from magical detection. At the same time, I don't want to just ignore my player's creativity. So I've two questions:
1) Do you think it's actually possible to use GOW in this way?
2) Assuming it doesn't work, any suggestions on how I can reward the player's creativity?
Thanks in advance.
If it's something that doesn't work, they should know that, or at most have to make a not-particularly-hard arcana check to realize it.
However, it's a clever trick, and I see no reason not to let it work. Nondetection, for instance, specifically guards against Divination, and Glyph is not.
Yes, you can find arguments why it wouldn't, but ultimately this falls under the general rule of "Don't scuttle your players' cool ideas just because they'd solve things in a way you didn't anticipate".
That concept seems self-contradictory. I wouldn't allow it.
I generally assume that spells that protect against divination also protect against non-divination spells that would reveal traits that normally require divination to determine. The rules are rather silent on what sensory capability magical traps have, though.
It would be nice if there was a general rule on how they work, though -- say, it's equivalent to an invisible observer with passive perception equal to the spell save DC, and certain sensory traits (most of them seem to require a detect creature type ability -- which does not currently exist).
As far as rewarding creativity goes... just tell them it's a clever idea, but GoW doesn't work that way in your game.
Sounds like an interesting work around but make a note of one line in the spell "The glyph is nearly invisible and requires a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC to be found." So, regardless of the trigger the players use, the Killer could potentially see the Glyph and find alternate methods of entry/exit from the area.
Maybe use Passive Perception or Investigation when the killer enters the area to see if they detect anything unusual and then use an investigation check to find the glyph.
EDIT: if the killer does locate the glyph then you could turn it into a chase scene, use skill challenges as the PC;s set of in pursuit. If the chase is in a town or city then it might be worth taking a look at the Spring Heeled Jack chase from Assassins Creed: Syndicate , Jack is a villian who attacks/killers people and uses smoke bombs, grapple hooks and other things to get around and might prove some action beyond just trying to blow him up or beat him to death.
1) Do you think it's actually possible to use GOW in this way?
- I would say no, as it makes it so trivial to defeat magical protections that it can easily break your world down the line. If it was a one-shot, sure allow it that's fun, but I'd be very careful allowing that in a long-term campaign.
2) Assuming it doesn't work, any suggestions on how I can reward the player's creativity?
- Suggest to them some alternatives that would work, e.g. a person carrying weapons, or a person covering their face, or a person that is invisible.
OR have the killer "fall" for the trap but not set off the glyph and give them an insight check or something to potentially catch a glimpse of someone suspicious who is in fact the killer.
Thanks for all your thoughts everyone. It's been very helpful for me for making up my mind on this. Appreciate the help.
At first, it sounds like a great plan. However, I do have one concern. The wording of the "Glyph of Warding" spell states: "You can refine the trigger so that only creatures of certain types activate it (for example, the glyph could be set to affect Aberrations). You can also set conditions for creatures that don’t trigger the glyph, such as those who say a certain password."
So my question is - if someone is using non-detection magic on themselves, does that constitute a "creature type"? I would say no. But again, that is just one example given in the spell description. So my impression is that other types of triggers could be valid as well, at the DMs discretion.
So sure. Go ahead and do it. The players clearly put the effort into coming up with what sounds like a reasonable plan. So go ahead and reward them for that effort. BUT... make sure they are aware that they may want to use non-detection magic themselves one day. And now they know it won't necessarily offer them the foolproof protection they may have been expecting.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
1) A couple things to keep in mind ... a glyph only holds an explosive rune or a spell that the character can cast. What spell would the player want to place on the rune that would even be useful in catching this NPC? Most spells have a limited duration and many also have a saving throw.
2) The spell itself doesn't go into the details of how the detection works. The example does include distinguishing on creature type for example. However, could glyph of warding obtain information that would be unavailable to other divination spells or an observer? I would say no.
For example, a creature that is shielded from magical detection walks past the glyph. This creature would either appear as non magical to the glyph or would not be detected at all since the magic makes the creature appear invisible to any other magics trying to detect them. The glyph is not an all powerful, all knowing source of information.
Anyway, I would probably rule that a glyph effectively uses divination magic of some sort to detect the trigger. So a creature immune to detection via divination would not trigger the trap.
In terms of interacting with the player, I would explain how these game features work and how their suggestion is a great idea but doesn't work with how magic works in this game world. (unless you simply decide you want it to work but personally, I don't think it makes much sense :) ). I would also indicate that this is information that their character knows simply because they have learned to cast glyph of warning and are aware of its capabilities and its limitations.
My current tentative rule about GoW (and similar spells) is that:
However, this is not backed by any official rules, it's just what I think is needed to make it function properly, without being overpowered. For the OPs purpose, if they can actually get the killer to pass through a 10' diameter circle, a glyph might do something, depending on the details of the magic the killer is using.
Depending on how the trap is set, dispel magic at the caster's max level (to get rid of whatever is blocking the divination magic) might be the best choice
I tend to agree with this, but there would still be ways around it. For instance, the glyph could be bypassed by wearing some visible item (a blue rose or whatever), which of course an invisible creature couldn't do, and the killer wouldn't know to wear even if they are visible
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)