So Im curious if you think this will work or will it take to much away from the players. I decided up up the difficulty on an upcoming boss fight because there is a monk who was one shotting cr2s at lvl 3 and we have a new player. A big part of this campaign is alliances and political control. The fight was going to be in a dark room with a Juv shadow dragon and some shadows. At the time we had 5 players, 4 at level 3 one at level 2 which was putting it at medium to hard. We now have 6 ( a persons boyfriend joined) and with some side stuff they did, all 6 went to level 3 so now it would be a cake walk. As I was looking at what creatures thematically fit I can used to up the difficulty, I thought about introducing two bosses that show up on nightmare steeds, that they would have met months down the road. They are elder vampires for narration sake. They are allied with the big bad of the campaign while the abyss creatures serve an old celestial the big bad imprisoned.
My thought is they show up because they get wind one of the artifacts than can free the celestial, the players are about to find, and inside the room are two big abyss demons who are lieutenants for the imprisoned celestial (they are there to see if the players are worthy because they were called to this tomb by the celestial). I already had a mechanic in place of sunlight peeping through the ceiling players can attack and open. So assuming they figure this out this gives them a way to give almost all the evil characters disadvantage and consistent damage on the vampires until they run out of the room.
Combat will consist of essentially the players going after the juv shadow dragon, a shadow demon, and shadows. While the rest of large creatures go after each other with the possible stray attack on the players so they cant ignore them completely. Im also going to throw in calls for the players to ally with either side (they know enough so far both these sides are evil, bad evil), but i have 3 players on the evil alignment so lets go with it (its already made for some fun RP lol). My concern is players getting bored because of the bads fighting each other. Do I possible just fluff the dice rolls and really narrate the fight going on with them. Has anyone done anything like this before what worked, what didnt?
I think this sounds like a cool idea, and you could definitely run it, but it'll be a huge strain to keep track of so many creatures, and you risk the players feeling as though you're taking their agency. If these creatures are all duking it out with each other and the players don't seem to matter, it might make them feel like they aren't the focus- which they should be, being the main characters and all. Honestly this depends on the type of players you have, you know your table and I don't. As for the other point, you mention you're a first time DM, which means this could wind up being a lot of stress keeping track of all these creatures and what they're doing, as well as filling your normal role of adjudicating the players. But again, you know yourself better than I do! Basically, this could be pretty stressful, but if you're sure your party doesn't mind a lot of focus being on these other combatants duking it out and you feel up to running so many creatures then go ahead! The idea of the players possibly picking a side and turning the battle sounds dope as hell, it'll just be some work to pull off.
That sounds like a cool encounter! Your players might be used to the spotlight being on them in combat, and make sure they don't get bored while your villains are beating each other up. If it helps, try simplifying your villains actions to make their turns shorter, at least when they are fighting each other.
I'd highly recommend pre-rolling / pre-planning the big bosses fighting each other in the background, it's one thing for the players to kind of be in the shadows of this larger fight (which can work at lower levels to impress on them the scale of things to come), its another for them to be sitting there bored while you spend 15 minutes playing with yourself rolling saves/checks/attacks.
I have been in three way battles a long time ago. Basically, no matter how much is planned, it still evolves into a normal 2 way battle but the DM (who is in charge of 2 sides) will occasionally have the weaker side attack the stronger non player side.
A single person running the 2 sides no matter what has 100% knowledge of both sides, so there is a built in bias. This is the epitome of doing a solo 2 person war game and why the person 98% of the time ends up with the winner being who he wanted to win before he started.
I recommend doing a test battle before the one you outlined. Have the party come across 2 high CR combatants/monsters. Run it and see if you can fairly separate the 2 monsters actions. If you find the 2 creatures working in tandem to protect themselves or the opposite, ignoring the party to their detriment and/death, having more creatures to track will just make it more difficult not easier.
If there is some reason you want a 3 way battle, have the party arrive just before the "killing blow" This gives the impression of a 3 way battle, but eliminates any bias/issues of joining together. Either the one of the creatures or the Party does the killing blow on that 3 way and turns it into a 2 way battle.
Thank you for all the feedback ill clarify a few things.
1. Our last GM to his own credit was soft on encounters, and it made it cake walks. Ive already been adding more monsters in the battles because unfortunately I cant just add a higher CR because he would one shot the squishes. Ive already done stomps on characters as the are doing death saves to force the party to react because one fail and hes dead which has brought a sense of urgency to combat they are appreciating. All that being said ive already been running multiple numbers of monsters week one was a headache, starting on week 2 i had a system so the tracking im not as concerned about.
2. For this fight in particular the why do it. My option is one of two things. Just add a bunch of lower lvl crs that can be one shot by some toons, or have 1 higher level CR but they will one shot the low hp players, and I dont want to fudge the dice rolls that much. So we are already at a point some are wanting to embrace evil cursed objects while others want to destroy them. This now ups the anty from a narrative standpoint. Do the evil players align with one of the two factions to tip the favor in that battle or go morally grey. I honestly planned the campaign to be classic good vs evil, that went out session 0 and 1 once i realized how people wanted to play, and honestly good for them. The players I have that are really op compared to the rest of the group have a tendency to bite of more than they can chew. So i think this will be a good lesson long term when they go up to a over powered monster and get one shot. (this happened last campaign also and almost killed us with only 1 session left), and see below i have an out.
3. I love the idea of essentially pre rolling and yeah do that. My intention was to have that fight be between the bigger guys from a narrative perspective, and if players want to jump in great, then for them its all out rolls. the room is going to be small enough also that with cleaves and multi attacks if a player is out of position they are going to get hit, so urgency will be there. While yes the bigger people are focused on each other if they can swat a fly they will so it wont be a situation of hyper focus.
4. Ending of the battle how do players not end up dead. So if I focus on a narrative perspective of the bosses going at each other. Lets say players dont align with one side and are simply attacking both. I have elemnts in place of the largest monsters bugging out. Its the advantage of having the sunlight in the room if they use that mechanic, if they dont i may have to improvise. But the vampries bug out because is lover is about to die, or the demons bug out because the worth of the players was determined. Either way the conclusion of the battle is ultimately decided by the players choices in this instance if not the dice rolls directly.
Normally the way I handle larger battles involving NPCs vs NPCs is I just declare "and there is fighting happening off screen" and figure that if the PCs win their portion of the battle, their side wins the battle.
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So Im curious if you think this will work or will it take to much away from the players. I decided up up the difficulty on an upcoming boss fight because there is a monk who was one shotting cr2s at lvl 3 and we have a new player. A big part of this campaign is alliances and political control. The fight was going to be in a dark room with a Juv shadow dragon and some shadows. At the time we had 5 players, 4 at level 3 one at level 2 which was putting it at medium to hard. We now have 6 ( a persons boyfriend joined) and with some side stuff they did, all 6 went to level 3 so now it would be a cake walk. As I was looking at what creatures thematically fit I can used to up the difficulty, I thought about introducing two bosses that show up on nightmare steeds, that they would have met months down the road. They are elder vampires for narration sake. They are allied with the big bad of the campaign while the abyss creatures serve an old celestial the big bad imprisoned.
My thought is they show up because they get wind one of the artifacts than can free the celestial, the players are about to find, and inside the room are two big abyss demons who are lieutenants for the imprisoned celestial (they are there to see if the players are worthy because they were called to this tomb by the celestial). I already had a mechanic in place of sunlight peeping through the ceiling players can attack and open. So assuming they figure this out this gives them a way to give almost all the evil characters disadvantage and consistent damage on the vampires until they run out of the room.
Combat will consist of essentially the players going after the juv shadow dragon, a shadow demon, and shadows. While the rest of large creatures go after each other with the possible stray attack on the players so they cant ignore them completely. Im also going to throw in calls for the players to ally with either side (they know enough so far both these sides are evil, bad evil), but i have 3 players on the evil alignment so lets go with it (its already made for some fun RP lol). My concern is players getting bored because of the bads fighting each other. Do I possible just fluff the dice rolls and really narrate the fight going on with them. Has anyone done anything like this before what worked, what didnt?
I think this sounds like a cool idea, and you could definitely run it, but it'll be a huge strain to keep track of so many creatures, and you risk the players feeling as though you're taking their agency. If these creatures are all duking it out with each other and the players don't seem to matter, it might make them feel like they aren't the focus- which they should be, being the main characters and all. Honestly this depends on the type of players you have, you know your table and I don't.
As for the other point, you mention you're a first time DM, which means this could wind up being a lot of stress keeping track of all these creatures and what they're doing, as well as filling your normal role of adjudicating the players. But again, you know yourself better than I do!
Basically, this could be pretty stressful, but if you're sure your party doesn't mind a lot of focus being on these other combatants duking it out and you feel up to running so many creatures then go ahead! The idea of the players possibly picking a side and turning the battle sounds dope as hell, it'll just be some work to pull off.
That sounds like a cool encounter! Your players might be used to the spotlight being on them in combat, and make sure they don't get bored while your villains are beating each other up. If it helps, try simplifying your villains actions to make their turns shorter, at least when they are fighting each other.
I'd highly recommend pre-rolling / pre-planning the big bosses fighting each other in the background, it's one thing for the players to kind of be in the shadows of this larger fight (which can work at lower levels to impress on them the scale of things to come), its another for them to be sitting there bored while you spend 15 minutes playing with yourself rolling saves/checks/attacks.
I have been in three way battles a long time ago. Basically, no matter how much is planned, it still evolves into a normal 2 way battle but the DM (who is in charge of 2 sides) will occasionally have the weaker side attack the stronger non player side.
A single person running the 2 sides no matter what has 100% knowledge of both sides, so there is a built in bias. This is the epitome of doing a solo 2 person war game and why the person 98% of the time ends up with the winner being who he wanted to win before he started.
I recommend doing a test battle before the one you outlined. Have the party come across 2 high CR combatants/monsters. Run it and see if you can fairly separate the 2 monsters actions. If you find the 2 creatures working in tandem to protect themselves or the opposite, ignoring the party to their detriment and/death, having more creatures to track will just make it more difficult not easier.
If there is some reason you want a 3 way battle, have the party arrive just before the "killing blow" This gives the impression of a 3 way battle, but eliminates any bias/issues of joining together. Either the one of the creatures or the Party does the killing blow on that 3 way and turns it into a 2 way battle.
Thank you for all the feedback ill clarify a few things.
1. Our last GM to his own credit was soft on encounters, and it made it cake walks. Ive already been adding more monsters in the battles because unfortunately I cant just add a higher CR because he would one shot the squishes. Ive already done stomps on characters as the are doing death saves to force the party to react because one fail and hes dead which has brought a sense of urgency to combat they are appreciating. All that being said ive already been running multiple numbers of monsters week one was a headache, starting on week 2 i had a system so the tracking im not as concerned about.
2. For this fight in particular the why do it. My option is one of two things. Just add a bunch of lower lvl crs that can be one shot by some toons, or have 1 higher level CR but they will one shot the low hp players, and I dont want to fudge the dice rolls that much. So we are already at a point some are wanting to embrace evil cursed objects while others want to destroy them. This now ups the anty from a narrative standpoint. Do the evil players align with one of the two factions to tip the favor in that battle or go morally grey. I honestly planned the campaign to be classic good vs evil, that went out session 0 and 1 once i realized how people wanted to play, and honestly good for them. The players I have that are really op compared to the rest of the group have a tendency to bite of more than they can chew. So i think this will be a good lesson long term when they go up to a over powered monster and get one shot. (this happened last campaign also and almost killed us with only 1 session left), and see below i have an out.
3. I love the idea of essentially pre rolling and yeah do that. My intention was to have that fight be between the bigger guys from a narrative perspective, and if players want to jump in great, then for them its all out rolls. the room is going to be small enough also that with cleaves and multi attacks if a player is out of position they are going to get hit, so urgency will be there. While yes the bigger people are focused on each other if they can swat a fly they will so it wont be a situation of hyper focus.
4. Ending of the battle how do players not end up dead. So if I focus on a narrative perspective of the bosses going at each other. Lets say players dont align with one side and are simply attacking both. I have elemnts in place of the largest monsters bugging out. Its the advantage of having the sunlight in the room if they use that mechanic, if they dont i may have to improvise. But the vampries bug out because is lover is about to die, or the demons bug out because the worth of the players was determined. Either way the conclusion of the battle is ultimately decided by the players choices in this instance if not the dice rolls directly.
Normally the way I handle larger battles involving NPCs vs NPCs is I just declare "and there is fighting happening off screen" and figure that if the PCs win their portion of the battle, their side wins the battle.