I think that OSR4Ever is onto something. The more clever a group is, the fewer XP they get. That's not an intuitive way to achieve balance and consistency, but it would work to Level-Up the challenge in proportion to the level of play.
This is a punishment mechanism that penalizes intelligent, strategic play and is completely counter to any good reward model. XP is a reward for overcoming challenges that represents a growth in skill gained from the lessons learned in overcoming that challenge. TBH the amount of XP rewarded should be completely agnostic from how they overcame the challenge, because the XP is based on the challenge itself.
It's not a punishment, it's just a very logical way to solve a problem.
Using this system, players earn XP based on how difficult encounters are, which is quite literally the intention of the CR system.
The only difference is that, rather than just basing it on an arbitrary number Wizards of the Coast came up with, with absolutely zero knowledge about my table and my players, we are basing it on our actual play experience. We use the dynamics at our table, aka, player experience, character equipment, readiness, situational dynamics etc... and most importantly the actual results of the fight to determine how difficult it was.
Xalthu -- So they would lay 4 sling bullets (per spell caster) on the ground, light them up and throw them down the hallway lighting it up like an airport runway. Light lasts an hour so they pick them up and toss them ahead and they explore the dungeon. Monster having disadvantage in light would be at a constant disadvantage. How would you deal with that?
I think that OSR4Ever is onto something. The more clever a group is, the fewer XP they get. That's not an intuitive way to achieve balance and consistency, but it would work to Level-Up the challenge in proportion to the level of play.
I’d say good for them, and that they’d never surprise anything.
And echoing what davyd said. It seems like a real backwards move to punish them for being clever. What does that leave? They can only ever run in blindly and start swinging their swords if they want full xp?
The players aren't getting "less XP" because "they played well", they are getting a CR system that is 100% accurate and never fails. You always get the exact XP you should get, even if the designers fail to give a monster the correct CR.
It quite literally fixes their design mistakes with perfect precision.
Thank you Davyd. I was unaware that it had been play tested.
Now you have me wondering what I am doing wrong that my table (having four level 6-7 PCs) took out a Mummy Lord and his bodyguard (a Death Knight Aspirant), 12 Dread Warriors, 6 Mummies, 6 Spawn of Kyuss, a Banshee and a Flameskull in one 4-hour session having only 1 short rest. Oh - and the game day before they all ate a full meal of the stuff that the mummy lord feeds prisioners (laced with the most powerful poison in my World of Mystara) -- and they all saved DC17. CR play tested? Not in my game store. Not using my Min-Maxers. Our Druid summons either a Water Elemental or an Earth Elemental and fights with them by his side while he shape shifts into an Ankylosaurus and picks-up temporary hit points in the process. His PC alone would destroy a cloaker in two rounds. An a cleric can turn undead now regardless of the undead's CR. That was play tested?
You know what? Amazon is selling d20s that have the numbers 1,2,3 replaced with 20,19,18. They call them "Initiative Dice". I hope my players are not cheating. They never fumble. Do I need to make a dice check before play begins? WTF world are we living in where game store players need to cheat at DnD? Jeezus! I feel sick.
I wish I didn't have to say this, but your players are cheating, or at least the druid. A druid has to be at least level 9 to summon a true elemental, and even a Moon Druid can't turn into an Ankylosaurus until level 9. Maybe the druid is a higher level than the rest of the party? No matter what, a level 7 party should not be able to kill a CR 15 and a CR 7 working together. The damage those monsters can deal should be enough to instantly KO them.
It seems like OSR4Ever just invented the progressive tax system for XP. Using XP does motivate players to engage in challenges that may be deadly. My players did not formulate an approach for taking on a young red dragon that they know lives above the ruins of Ardelphia -- but they did decide to sneak into the lair of a pack of undead Dread Warriors and fireball them to oblivion. So they are looking for XP and treasure while at the same time being a little cautious -- knowing that fire a vulnerability of undead, but not a red dragon. So yes -- XP does motivate more so than milestone leveling. But like progressive taxation -- everyone is still out to grab a fast buck even if 20 cents gets lost in the process.
It seems like OSR4Ever just invented the progressive tax system for XP. Using XP does motivate players to engage in challenges that may be deadly. My players did not formulate an approach for taking on a young red dragon that they know lives above the ruins of Ardelphia -- but they did decide to sneak into the lair of a pack of undead Dread Warriors and fireball them to oblivion. So they are looking for XP and treasure while at the same time being a little cautious -- knowing that fire a vulnerability of undead, but not a red dragon. So yes -- XP does motivate more so than milestone leveling. But like progressive taxation -- everyone is still out to grab a fast buck even if 20 cents gets lost in the process.
XP is definitely connected to play style and, to a degree, group preference. Some games are about story/narrative/plot, driven by story-based progression, and in cases like that, there is not much motivation "to get XP", in which case milestone XP is ideal. No reason to bother with the extra tracking and mathematical gymnastics.
If however, you're running say an open world where the players are free to do what they like and how much XP they earn is entirely based on what, if anything, they do, then doing things is motivated by the acquisition of XP, gold, and other treasures.
I run all types of games, and I don't think there is a single method for all games and all groups.
To give some examples, I'm running one game that is more like a Western Marshes game for a group of kids (2 of whom are mine) using Dragons of Icespire Peak. In this game, they can earn a lot, a little or even no XP in a session, depending on what they do, what, if anything, they achieve etc.. In such a case, good XP distribution is dependent on difficulty, in which case a good XP tax system like this is perfect. The players are motivated to go out and do stuff to earn rewards (XP, gold and treasure)
I also run a very "theatre" based game that is more like a Game of Thrones-style game. In that game, we can go 6-7 sessions without ever having a fight or even leaving the city. In this game, I don't want the players "seeking out XP and treasure", because that's not the main point of the game. So, milestone XP is ideal for that game.
But if XP rewards are a motivation in a game, I think this method of adapting CR's and XP rewards after encounters is not only fair but equitable towards the players, certainly better than simply using the default book CR's and Rewards, which rarely represents the reality of what happens in the game.
Thank you Davyd. I was unaware that it had been play tested.
Now you have me wondering what I am doing wrong that my table (having four level 6-7 PCs) took out a Mummy Lord and his bodyguard (a Death Knight Aspirant), 12 Dread Warriors, 6 Mummies, 6 Spawn of Kyuss, a Banshee and a Flameskull in one 4-hour session having only 1 short rest. Oh - and the game day before they all ate a full meal of the stuff that the mummy lord feeds prisioners (laced with the most powerful poison in my World of Mystara) -- and they all saved DC17. CR play tested? Not in my game store. Not using my Min-Maxers. Our Druid summons either a Water Elemental or an Earth Elemental and fights with them by his side while he shape shifts into an Ankylosaurus and picks-up temporary hit points in the process. His PC alone would destroy a cloaker in two rounds. An a cleric can turn undead now regardless of the undead's CR. That was play tested?
You know what? Amazon is selling d20s that have the numbers 1,2,3 replaced with 20,19,18. They call them "Initiative Dice". I hope my players are not cheating. They never fumble. Do I need to make a dice check before play begins? WTF world are we living in where game store players need to cheat at DnD? Jeezus! I feel sick.
I wish I didn't have to say this, but your players are cheating, or at least the druid. A druid has to be at least level 9 to summon a true elemental, and even a Moon Druid can't turn into an Ankylosaurus until level 9. Maybe the druid is a higher level than the rest of the party? No matter what, a level 7 party should not be able to kill a CR 15 and a CR 7 working together. The damage those monsters can deal should be enough to instantly KO them.
Marun -- He is playing a Moon Druid and they do get a 4th level spell at level 7.
That player is presenting his character, level 7 + a CR5 companion Earth Elemental. How does a CR7 monster present a challenge? The Moon Druid is a game breaker. How else can I deal with this except to dumb down the XP?
I only ever run milestone games so the xp thing is never an issue - I find it lets players enjoy the road and worry less about hopping off the road to kill every little thing to get every ounce of xp out of a map.
Marun -- He is playing a Moon Druid and they do get a 4th level spell at level 7.
summon elemental does not create a CR 5 earth elemental, it creates a (no defined CR) elemental spirit (similar damage output to the monster, but much less durable). The 2014 spell conjure elemental does summon an elemental from the monster manual, but it's a 5th level spell, has a casting time of one minute, and if you lose concentration for any reason the elemental tries to kill you. And as was mentioned before, an ankylosaurus is not a legal form at level 7.
I can't say whether this is cheating or just a convenient failure to understand the rules, but that character is definitely not following the rules.
I only ever run milestone games so the xp thing is never an issue - I find it lets players enjoy the road and worry less about hopping off the road to kill every little thing to get every ounce of xp out of a map.
My table features challenging combat at every session -- unless we decide to have a "downtime session", but there is seldom any request for downtime in my game unless too many key players are missing. That has happened once in the last 26 weeks. More often its time to listen to my summary of last week's accomplishments, then reload.
How do you keep your players engaged? No fear of death or impending catastrophe? "Oh, let the dragon eat the princess. Let's see what happens. Is it time to level-up yet?"
How do you keep your players engaged? No fear of death or impending catastrophe? "Oh, let the dragon eat the princess. Let's see what happens. Is it time to level-up yet?"
MIlestone doesn't mean no fear of death or impending catastrophe. It means no grinding trash mobs for xp.
I ran a fetch quest once to hunt a runaway step-sister who had taken-up with a crew of wandering satyrs. The satyrs eventually asked for their tag-along to setup a social encounter with a group of sylphs at the sylphs' favorite spring. Our runaway succeeded in setting up the soiree, and fortunitely, the party at the last minute, swooped in and "rescued" the sylphs from the satyrs' attempt at debauchery. Success and good XPs and my lady player loved the whole campaign. But the guys were far more interested in the dragonfly constructs that the sylphs had ridden to the ocassion. Sizing up how to use them in battling a goblin infestation. After my lady player moved out of town, the focus swiftly turned to more and better weapons and easy treasure. Tho the treasure was never too easy, their appetite for it hasn't changed. Puzzles? My table ain't interested in solving puzzles. Mystery? They got no time for that.
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It's not a punishment, it's just a very logical way to solve a problem.
Using this system, players earn XP based on how difficult encounters are, which is quite literally the intention of the CR system.
The only difference is that, rather than just basing it on an arbitrary number Wizards of the Coast came up with, with absolutely zero knowledge about my table and my players, we are basing it on our actual play experience. We use the dynamics at our table, aka, player experience, character equipment, readiness, situational dynamics etc... and most importantly the actual results of the fight to determine how difficult it was.
The players aren't getting "less XP" because "they played well", they are getting a CR system that is 100% accurate and never fails. You always get the exact XP you should get, even if the designers fail to give a monster the correct CR.
It quite literally fixes their design mistakes with perfect precision.
I wish I didn't have to say this, but your players are cheating, or at least the druid. A druid has to be at least level 9 to summon a true elemental, and even a Moon Druid can't turn into an Ankylosaurus until level 9. Maybe the druid is a higher level than the rest of the party? No matter what, a level 7 party should not be able to kill a CR 15 and a CR 7 working together. The damage those monsters can deal should be enough to instantly KO them.
It seems like OSR4Ever just invented the progressive tax system for XP. Using XP does motivate players to engage in challenges that may be deadly. My players did not formulate an approach for taking on a young red dragon that they know lives above the ruins of Ardelphia -- but they did decide to sneak into the lair of a pack of undead Dread Warriors and fireball them to oblivion. So they are looking for XP and treasure while at the same time being a little cautious -- knowing that fire a vulnerability of undead, but not a red dragon. So yes -- XP does motivate more so than milestone leveling. But like progressive taxation -- everyone is still out to grab a fast buck even if 20 cents gets lost in the process.
XP is definitely connected to play style and, to a degree, group preference. Some games are about story/narrative/plot, driven by story-based progression, and in cases like that, there is not much motivation "to get XP", in which case milestone XP is ideal. No reason to bother with the extra tracking and mathematical gymnastics.
If however, you're running say an open world where the players are free to do what they like and how much XP they earn is entirely based on what, if anything, they do, then doing things is motivated by the acquisition of XP, gold, and other treasures.
I run all types of games, and I don't think there is a single method for all games and all groups.
To give some examples, I'm running one game that is more like a Western Marshes game for a group of kids (2 of whom are mine) using Dragons of Icespire Peak. In this game, they can earn a lot, a little or even no XP in a session, depending on what they do, what, if anything, they achieve etc.. In such a case, good XP distribution is dependent on difficulty, in which case a good XP tax system like this is perfect. The players are motivated to go out and do stuff to earn rewards (XP, gold and treasure)
I also run a very "theatre" based game that is more like a Game of Thrones-style game. In that game, we can go 6-7 sessions without ever having a fight or even leaving the city. In this game, I don't want the players "seeking out XP and treasure", because that's not the main point of the game. So, milestone XP is ideal for that game.
But if XP rewards are a motivation in a game, I think this method of adapting CR's and XP rewards after encounters is not only fair but equitable towards the players, certainly better than simply using the default book CR's and Rewards, which rarely represents the reality of what happens in the game.
Marun -- He is playing a Moon Druid and they do get a 4th level spell at level 7.
That player is presenting his character, level 7 + a CR5 companion Earth Elemental. How does a CR7 monster present a challenge? The Moon Druid is a game breaker. How else can I deal with this except to dumb down the XP?
I only ever run milestone games so the xp thing is never an issue - I find it lets players enjoy the road and worry less about hopping off the road to kill every little thing to get every ounce of xp out of a map.
summon elemental does not create a CR 5 earth elemental, it creates a (no defined CR) elemental spirit (similar damage output to the monster, but much less durable). The 2014 spell conjure elemental does summon an elemental from the monster manual, but it's a 5th level spell, has a casting time of one minute, and if you lose concentration for any reason the elemental tries to kill you. And as was mentioned before, an ankylosaurus is not a legal form at level 7.
I can't say whether this is cheating or just a convenient failure to understand the rules, but that character is definitely not following the rules.
My table features challenging combat at every session -- unless we decide to have a "downtime session", but there is seldom any request for downtime in my game unless too many key players are missing. That has happened once in the last 26 weeks. More often its time to listen to my summary of last week's accomplishments, then reload.
How do you keep your players engaged? No fear of death or impending catastrophe? "Oh, let the dragon eat the princess. Let's see what happens. Is it time to level-up yet?"
MIlestone doesn't mean no fear of death or impending catastrophe. It means no grinding trash mobs for xp.
I ran a fetch quest once to hunt a runaway step-sister who had taken-up with a crew of wandering satyrs. The satyrs eventually asked for their tag-along to setup a social encounter with a group of sylphs at the sylphs' favorite spring. Our runaway succeeded in setting up the soiree, and fortunitely, the party at the last minute, swooped in and "rescued" the sylphs from the satyrs' attempt at debauchery. Success and good XPs and my lady player loved the whole campaign. But the guys were far more interested in the dragonfly constructs that the sylphs had ridden to the ocassion. Sizing up how to use them in battling a goblin infestation. After my lady player moved out of town, the focus swiftly turned to more and better weapons and easy treasure. Tho the treasure was never too easy, their appetite for it hasn't changed. Puzzles? My table ain't interested in solving puzzles. Mystery? They got no time for that.