I've heard a lot of people ignore cr so I'm curious about your preferred methods.
I do it like
Monster X sounds cool. I'll do that. Or Monster X and monster Y makes sense here. I'll just do that.
The CR system is weird and wonky and doesn't always make sense, especially when die rolls and unforseen player actions come into play. Too many times I went by the book thinking "This is a deadly encounter" and it ended up being a cakewalk for the party, or "This will be too easy" and darn near TPK them. So, I've abandoned it in favor of the rule of cool.
I like the idea of Quantum Ogres mixed with Points of Light as a overall encounter style. By Quantum Ogres I mean that between any two points in an adventure, whether its following a plothook or sandbox exploration, there's a certain amount of experience/progression that you can gain. The enemies you encounter don't matter and they'll have similar statblocks as anything else you'd face in a similar situation (this also means I don't strictly, or even sometimes loosely, follow the Monster Manual). By Points of Light I mean that the more people are somewhere, the less and weaker the nearby monsters are. Put all together, encounter CR depends on the distance from civilization and the monster aesthetics depend on the area you encounter them in.
Now that that's taken care of, if I want to communicate that the players are in an area that might be too dangerous I like to use a few methods. One is environmental storytelling like what's already been discussed in the thread. An Ogre surrounded by dead, armor-dented bandits is a great way to show that if you think you're about as strong as these bandits, then the Ogre might be too much. Another similar way is to observe the monster from a distance. If a party sees a Giant destroy a full-plated soldier in two hits, they get a feeling for how strong that Giant might be. The more they understand about themselves and previous enemies, the better they can gauge new enemies. In addition to learning through exploration, you could also learn some generic things from libraries or talking with people, so if you really want to learn about a monster there are plenty of ways to do so.
I've heard a lot of people ignore cr so I'm curious about your preferred methods.
I do it like
Monster X sounds cool. I'll do that. Or Monster X and monster Y makes sense here. I'll just do that.
The CR system is weird and wonky and doesn't always make sense, especially when die rolls and unforseen player actions come into play. Too many times I went by the book thinking "This is a deadly encounter" and it ended up being a cakewalk for the party, or "This will be too easy" and darn near TPK them. So, I've abandoned it in favor of the rule of cool.
I think the main issue here is spellcasters. They are so unpredictable. You expect them to always take fireball and low and behold on that day they for some reason or not take something else entirely. Or they realize the Party always rests after one encounter so they blow their big spells on the first encounter, making it super easy.
I think the main issue here is spellcasters. They are so unpredictable.
I find the predictability of spellcasters to be pretty similar to that of other characters. If you frequently use a variety of types of challenge, they will frequently keep a variety of spells prepared and will only change what is prepared to match to the expectations they are given by the DM setting up their environment or current goals (i.e. they'll swap out fire spells for something else when headed for a very hot location because creatures that live there are more likely to be fire-resistant, or they'll prepare something they usually don't like nondetection because they're goal is to keep something away from someone else). Similarly, if you make it so that the players don't actually know with certainty that they are only going to have a small number of encounters before having a chance to long rest (which is as simple to achieve as having their attempt to rest interrupted ever, and having more than one encounter even if they aren't all combat encounters during a travel day ever, in my experience), players will naturally start trying to minimize their resource usage in each encounter so that they have more resources to draw from for potential later encounters.
I think the main issue here is spellcasters. They are so unpredictable. You expect them to always take fireball and low and behold on that day they for some reason or not take something else entirely. Or they realize the Party always rests after one encounter so they blow their big spells on the first encounter, making it super easy.
That's why you kill them right away.
And by that, I mean... Nope, that's what I meant: Kill them right away.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Thank you @NightsLastHero for stating this thread. I've been struggling with this very question in the campaign I'm writing for my son and his friends.
To date, I've been going strictly with CR and using an online encounter calculator to give me an indication if the encounter is "Easy" or "Deadly". At the beginning of the campaign there were only 2 PCs, so the encounters I created where scaled down. Now the party is at 4 PCs, with the possibility of adding a fifth, and, therefore, I've ramped up the encounters.
As was previously mentioned, I go for Story first. I've been trying to stick to the DMG's monsters by terrain tables and, for the most part, I've been able to make it work. What monsters are here and why are they here? I make sure they fit into the story I'm trying to tell/present. Then I go for Combat. Because I have no idea what the PCs are going to do, I play the Monsters to win. And by 'win' I mean kill. They're not taking it easy on my monsters; my monsters aren't going to take it easy on them. So I use the online calculator to help me determine how many monsters they'll encounter. Finally, if treasure is appropriate I'll peruse the DMG tables and either roll or pick.
Admittedly 5e is new to me, though I started playing with AD&D. This CR system is new and I haven't yet experienced its warts and edge cases. And I'm very thankful for everyone's feedback. It's definitely given me something to consider when I put together the next chapter in this campaign.
I would say its okay for a monster to be found outside its normal area (especially the intelligent ones) but there should be a story reason behind it. When I start my game, I'm going to probably try going with the XP method rather than the normal CR method.
The hardest part of D&D is judging how hard to make an encounter, given not knowing what spells the PCs may have, and not knowing if they are going to rest or not. Even a short rest at higher levels can turn the tide of battle. Spellcasteres (especially those who haven't played one before) do have a tendency to use the same spells. I'm just the type of person who would know what spells I have prepared while we are traveling/staying in a town/down in a dungeon/etc. At just 1st level having burning hands vs not having burning hands can greatly influence the damage.
Best advice I can give myself is probably to start with easy/medium encounters and figure out how much damage the PCs are going to be doing each round.
Lots of good ideas here, but let me add a few additional thoughts:
1) Know your party and plan accordingly. I have seen 5e parties that are great a movement battles, outdoors, lots of options, etc. I have also seen parties that are horrible at that but deadly when the size of the room limits the opponents ability to move. A straight CR calculation will not always work. The later party, in a 20x20' room can layer a Silence and Spirit Guardians spell while the melee fighters pound them. But outdoors, three of the characters are races with 25' movement that spend most of the combat dashing to get back into range to help or heal the fighters. The first party has wood elf druid and ranger that move , fire, and move again, but don't have the melee damage or AC for small dungeon rooms.
TLDR: know your party. Some fights they will punch well above their level, other environments will turn what the CR=easy into a tough fight.
2) CR is a balance of three things: AC, HP, and Damage. I have learned the third is most important for low level parties. The monster may be the right CR for an easy encounter, but one that does a lot of damage is a higher risk for something going bad. Level 1 fighter is typically 12HP max, so a creature that can do 13 per round can result in a instant kill / no death saves. When two monsters fit the story, for low levels, I tend to pick the one that does lower damage to avoid a character kill, especially via crit.
3) Be flexible. Everything can change. One player may cancel at the last moment, another may get a call/text in the middle, or one may just be tired/distracted from a long day. Either way, parties can play above or below their potential. Make sure your planning can adjust to make the fight challenging and rewarding without a TPK.
4) It is pointed out above, but you can always have more show up. if there are 4 goblins, and the party kills three in the first round, have another four or so, drawn to the noise show up. CR is inexact. so play it by ear and add as needed.
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--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
I check it generally to see the range the monster fits into, and then look at specific abilities of monsters to judge in my head how powerful they are. PCs, especially in a high magic game, destroy most CR appropriate monsters. So I just add more and or class abilities to encounters. The CR system is a great general guideline, but it isn't an exact science. A ghoul is very strong for its CR, but boss monsters like the demon princes in OoTA, should be way stronger lorewise than they are in game with their CR range of 20-26. The Tarrasque as written in the MM says it is CR 30. It is nowhere near as strong as that implies. The Higher the CR it seems, the more likelihood that it won't be that powerful I find.
I believe the rules are written assuming no magic items. So magic items make monsters weaker.
Only if the DM doesn't have the monsters use them. Which is fine, but it's the DM leaving monsters at their default state, not magic items inherently causing monsters to be weaker.
The Creating a Combat Encounter section in the DMG is very good. You can work out, with a decent amount of reliability, what makes up an Easy, Medium, Hard, or Deadly encounter for the PC group. I like the method established there. And if you don't mind some math and juggling numbers, it's fairly quick to scale an encounter up or down if a player doesn't show up. It doesn't rely solely on CR.
There are great monsters, traps, or puzzles you can throw at PCs of any level. I try to find one that will work for the area, story, and party then build around it. They can't always fight an ancient red dragon, but even a 3rd level party will stomp all over a hill giant if you have 6 players. In fact it actually falls reasonably within a deadly encounter for a 6 PC 2nd level group, if the poor Hill Giant is out there wandering all by itself.
An awakened shrub did 8 damage to a 1st-level fighter with good stats. Twice, 4 guards took out that same character at 3rd level (he made his death saving throws). From that session, I learned 2 things: first, that 1st-level characters are fragile; and second, never to confront a single character with a number of CR 1/8 enemies greater than their level.
I follow challenge rating and also think of whether or not this encounter is organic to the location and the situation. If the PCs are running around kicking things over and generally being loud in a dungeon filled with goblins or kobolds or something, I have them encounter more per encounter than I was initially planning, because they've now drawn more enemies to them with the noise. If the PCs are going to run around and piss off a character that is way more powerful than they are, I structure that encounter so they understand this is a powerful enemy they have just made. I don't kill them outright, but I definitely structure it so they struggle with the encounter and perhaps a few of the PCs fall unconscious.
Having only DMed in 5th ed, I stick to CR for my baseline or random encounters, but for anything story essential, I try to lopsided the numbers with lots of minions and 1 or 2 bigger, badder baddies. Makes it feel like you're taking on a tide while only slogging combat for the couple rounds while the small fries are dealt with.
Otherwise, I like to add environmental factors that the player can use against the enemy or vice versa. A big open braiser to toss a lizardfolk in, or a chandelier to let fall on encroaching skeletons. Last session, while they were raiding a bandit hideout, the players were suddenly fighting three monsters the bandits were hoping to sell or harvest for magical ingredients. Going from a handful of thieves to having a flail snail, a basilisk, and a displacer beast all enter the fight made for a mess of a time. But it was fun.
Fluff it entirely. I always go over CR for the party because otherwise they find it too easy, and I use some of the abilities the stat block offers until they start sweating. If they sweat too much, I reduce the number of the abilities they use (e.g. skipping multiattack). If they don't sweat enough, I make full use of the creature's ability set.
Then I just eyeball the XP based on the original statblock and add or remove a few hundred points depending on whether I had to increase or decrease the abilities.
The statblock I use largely doesn't matter. Most humans are bandits of some variation, because there are three types of bandits which scale nicely, while magic users can be almost anything.
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I like the idea of Quantum Ogres mixed with Points of Light as a overall encounter style. By Quantum Ogres I mean that between any two points in an adventure, whether its following a plothook or sandbox exploration, there's a certain amount of experience/progression that you can gain. The enemies you encounter don't matter and they'll have similar statblocks as anything else you'd face in a similar situation (this also means I don't strictly, or even sometimes loosely, follow the Monster Manual). By Points of Light I mean that the more people are somewhere, the less and weaker the nearby monsters are. Put all together, encounter CR depends on the distance from civilization and the monster aesthetics depend on the area you encounter them in.
Now that that's taken care of, if I want to communicate that the players are in an area that might be too dangerous I like to use a few methods. One is environmental storytelling like what's already been discussed in the thread. An Ogre surrounded by dead, armor-dented bandits is a great way to show that if you think you're about as strong as these bandits, then the Ogre might be too much. Another similar way is to observe the monster from a distance. If a party sees a Giant destroy a full-plated soldier in two hits, they get a feeling for how strong that Giant might be. The more they understand about themselves and previous enemies, the better they can gauge new enemies. In addition to learning through exploration, you could also learn some generic things from libraries or talking with people, so if you really want to learn about a monster there are plenty of ways to do so.
I find the predictability of spellcasters to be pretty similar to that of other characters. If you frequently use a variety of types of challenge, they will frequently keep a variety of spells prepared and will only change what is prepared to match to the expectations they are given by the DM setting up their environment or current goals (i.e. they'll swap out fire spells for something else when headed for a very hot location because creatures that live there are more likely to be fire-resistant, or they'll prepare something they usually don't like nondetection because they're goal is to keep something away from someone else). Similarly, if you make it so that the players don't actually know with certainty that they are only going to have a small number of encounters before having a chance to long rest (which is as simple to achieve as having their attempt to rest interrupted ever, and having more than one encounter even if they aren't all combat encounters during a travel day ever, in my experience), players will naturally start trying to minimize their resource usage in each encounter so that they have more resources to draw from for potential later encounters.
That's why you kill them right away.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Thank you @NightsLastHero for stating this thread. I've been struggling with this very question in the campaign I'm writing for my son and his friends.
To date, I've been going strictly with CR and using an online encounter calculator to give me an indication if the encounter is "Easy" or "Deadly". At the beginning of the campaign there were only 2 PCs, so the encounters I created where scaled down. Now the party is at 4 PCs, with the possibility of adding a fifth, and, therefore, I've ramped up the encounters.
As was previously mentioned, I go for Story first. I've been trying to stick to the DMG's monsters by terrain tables and, for the most part, I've been able to make it work. What monsters are here and why are they here? I make sure they fit into the story I'm trying to tell/present. Then I go for Combat. Because I have no idea what the PCs are going to do, I play the Monsters to win. And by 'win' I mean kill. They're not taking it easy on my monsters; my monsters aren't going to take it easy on them. So I use the online calculator to help me determine how many monsters they'll encounter. Finally, if treasure is appropriate I'll peruse the DMG tables and either roll or pick.
Admittedly 5e is new to me, though I started playing with AD&D. This CR system is new and I haven't yet experienced its warts and edge cases. And I'm very thankful for everyone's feedback. It's definitely given me something to consider when I put together the next chapter in this campaign.
I wear pants, short pants.
I also ask a lot of questions; insatiably curious
I would say its okay for a monster to be found outside its normal area (especially the intelligent ones) but there should be a story reason behind it. When I start my game, I'm going to probably try going with the XP method rather than the normal CR method.
The hardest part of D&D is judging how hard to make an encounter, given not knowing what spells the PCs may have, and not knowing if they are going to rest or not. Even a short rest at higher levels can turn the tide of battle. Spellcasteres (especially those who haven't played one before) do have a tendency to use the same spells. I'm just the type of person who would know what spells I have prepared while we are traveling/staying in a town/down in a dungeon/etc. At just 1st level having burning hands vs not having burning hands can greatly influence the damage.
Best advice I can give myself is probably to start with easy/medium encounters and figure out how much damage the PCs are going to be doing each round.
Lots of good ideas here, but let me add a few additional thoughts:
1) Know your party and plan accordingly. I have seen 5e parties that are great a movement battles, outdoors, lots of options, etc. I have also seen parties that are horrible at that but deadly when the size of the room limits the opponents ability to move. A straight CR calculation will not always work. The later party, in a 20x20' room can layer a Silence and Spirit Guardians spell while the melee fighters pound them. But outdoors, three of the characters are races with 25' movement that spend most of the combat dashing to get back into range to help or heal the fighters. The first party has wood elf druid and ranger that move , fire, and move again, but don't have the melee damage or AC for small dungeon rooms.
TLDR: know your party. Some fights they will punch well above their level, other environments will turn what the CR=easy into a tough fight.
2) CR is a balance of three things: AC, HP, and Damage. I have learned the third is most important for low level parties. The monster may be the right CR for an easy encounter, but one that does a lot of damage is a higher risk for something going bad. Level 1 fighter is typically 12HP max, so a creature that can do 13 per round can result in a instant kill / no death saves. When two monsters fit the story, for low levels, I tend to pick the one that does lower damage to avoid a character kill, especially via crit.
3) Be flexible. Everything can change. One player may cancel at the last moment, another may get a call/text in the middle, or one may just be tired/distracted from a long day. Either way, parties can play above or below their potential. Make sure your planning can adjust to make the fight challenging and rewarding without a TPK.
4) It is pointed out above, but you can always have more show up. if there are 4 goblins, and the party kills three in the first round, have another four or so, drawn to the noise show up. CR is inexact. so play it by ear and add as needed.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
If I remember the rule correctly a fighter with 12 hp would have to take 24 damage to insta-die because it only counts the remaining damage.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
I realized that after I made the post.
I check it generally to see the range the monster fits into, and then look at specific abilities of monsters to judge in my head how powerful they are. PCs, especially in a high magic game, destroy most CR appropriate monsters. So I just add more and or class abilities to encounters. The CR system is a great general guideline, but it isn't an exact science. A ghoul is very strong for its CR, but boss monsters like the demon princes in OoTA, should be way stronger lorewise than they are in game with their CR range of 20-26. The Tarrasque as written in the MM says it is CR 30. It is nowhere near as strong as that implies. The Higher the CR it seems, the more likelihood that it won't be that powerful I find.
I believe the rules are written assuming no magic items. So magic items make monsters weaker.
The Creating a Combat Encounter section in the DMG is very good. You can work out, with a decent amount of reliability, what makes up an Easy, Medium, Hard, or Deadly encounter for the PC group. I like the method established there. And if you don't mind some math and juggling numbers, it's fairly quick to scale an encounter up or down if a player doesn't show up. It doesn't rely solely on CR.
There are great monsters, traps, or puzzles you can throw at PCs of any level. I try to find one that will work for the area, story, and party then build around it. They can't always fight an ancient red dragon, but even a 3rd level party will stomp all over a hill giant if you have 6 players. In fact it actually falls reasonably within a deadly encounter for a 6 PC 2nd level group, if the poor Hill Giant is out there wandering all by itself.
Sorry, edited with this Link: Building Combat Encounters
An awakened shrub did 8 damage to a 1st-level fighter with good stats. Twice, 4 guards took out that same character at 3rd level (he made his death saving throws). From that session, I learned 2 things: first, that 1st-level characters are fragile; and second, never to confront a single character with a number of CR 1/8 enemies greater than their level.
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I follow challenge rating and also think of whether or not this encounter is organic to the location and the situation. If the PCs are running around kicking things over and generally being loud in a dungeon filled with goblins or kobolds or something, I have them encounter more per encounter than I was initially planning, because they've now drawn more enemies to them with the noise. If the PCs are going to run around and piss off a character that is way more powerful than they are, I structure that encounter so they understand this is a powerful enemy they have just made. I don't kill them outright, but I definitely structure it so they struggle with the encounter and perhaps a few of the PCs fall unconscious.
Having only DMed in 5th ed, I stick to CR for my baseline or random encounters, but for anything story essential, I try to lopsided the numbers with lots of minions and 1 or 2 bigger, badder baddies. Makes it feel like you're taking on a tide while only slogging combat for the couple rounds while the small fries are dealt with.
Otherwise, I like to add environmental factors that the player can use against the enemy or vice versa. A big open braiser to toss a lizardfolk in, or a chandelier to let fall on encroaching skeletons. Last session, while they were raiding a bandit hideout, the players were suddenly fighting three monsters the bandits were hoping to sell or harvest for magical ingredients. Going from a handful of thieves to having a flail snail, a basilisk, and a displacer beast all enter the fight made for a mess of a time. But it was fun.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
Fluff it entirely. I always go over CR for the party because otherwise they find it too easy, and I use some of the abilities the stat block offers until they start sweating. If they sweat too much, I reduce the number of the abilities they use (e.g. skipping multiattack). If they don't sweat enough, I make full use of the creature's ability set.
Then I just eyeball the XP based on the original statblock and add or remove a few hundred points depending on whether I had to increase or decrease the abilities.
The statblock I use largely doesn't matter. Most humans are bandits of some variation, because there are three types of bandits which scale nicely, while magic users can be almost anything.