I'm not the best at calculating that sort of thing, but my personal opinion is that nothing is deadly if played right, both by party and DM. If you're at all worried you could always prepare to allow them a way out if need be. But that's just what I would do. Also depends on what you're going for- are you trying to scare them, badly injure them, kill them, or just give them an entertaining battle? Sorry I couldn't be of more help. This question often troubles me too.
I say the best way to figure this out is to make sure that you check the resistances and attack strengths of your creatures. The stone Golems are immune to any attack that is non magical; this can prove almost impossible to overcome to a party that does not have magical weapons in their inventory. The zombies are pretty standard so they may not be a problem to throw at the party so they may not need any changes. If you look at the creatures abilities and see that they will outclass/outplay your party or that their attacks hit too hard then i suggest making small changes such as lower health, less attack power, or change immunities to resistances so that even if they do not have the necessary weapons to deal full damage then they at least can try to outlast the creature. I hope that this helps and i wish you luck.
I would be careful with the golems. The zombies really arent a problem at all, but golems difficulty is going to vary wildly depending on what the part has to damage them.
I would be careful with the golems. The zombies really arent a problem at all, but golems difficulty is going to vary wildly depending on what the part has to damage them.
I feel like I'm just going to echo what everyone else said. If each player has a way to consistently damage the golem, you should be okay (it will still be a tough fight, for sure, as that's over 300HP for them to whittle down). A party with a bunch of ranged or mounted attackers could pretty much kite the melee-only golems and make it far less deadly as they'd be out of the golems' range. The environment the fight will take place in is also a factor of difficulty.
If you want to make the encounter a little less deadly, you can always scale back the golems' HP.
One Stone Golem by itself would be a good challenge for them, and two would be really tough. The Zombies won't matter too much, given how much weaker they are than the party, but they'll soak up a turn or two of somebody's actions. So think about environmental factors: what could you include that the party can use to their advantage, like maybe some difficult terrain between them and the golems or some way they can restrain them.
Thanks for all the advice. I think the intention here is to scare the crap out of the players, not kill them, as this is not the finale of this Temple/dungeon. The Temple is very old so I think it works narratively to lower the stone golems' hit points. They've been there so long that the magic that animates them has faded a bit. Maybe even lower their speed by 5 ft per round.
The zombies are trivial for a level 6 party with 8 players.
The stone golems could be deadly. First, they are immune to normal weapon damage. If your party has magical weapons then they have a chance. Without magical weapons they will probably not be able to do enough damage to knock them down. Second, and maybe more important, the stone golems have a 10' radius DC17 slow at will effect that recharges 1/3 of the time. Anyone within 10' even with proficiency in wisdom saves is going to fail ... at best a level 6 character is likely to have +4 from wis and +3 from proficiency if they are a wis caster. Typical fighter or barbarian will get a zero to modify their saves and will wind up slowed. Bye bye extra attack.
In addition:
Magic Resistance. The golem has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
This makes it much more challenging to debuff the golems. Blindness, which would be a good choice will be hard to stick.
In addition, they have a 17AC making them very hard for a level 6 with a typical +6 to +7 to hit (to actually hit) ... they will miss 1/2 the time.
In the meantime, the golems are doing 2 attacks each round at +10 to hit doing an average of 19.5 damage each time. At +10 to hit, they will be hitting most of the time against typical level 6 AC ... assuming 3/4 hit ... that is about 60 damage/combat round on average. A level 6 character will typically have less than that ... assuming the usual sort of tanking strategy .. you might have 2-3 melee tanks and these stand a good chance of being eliminated in 2-3 rounds. A single crit will do 6d8+6 ... which with bad luck might knock someone out right there.
Each stone golem is a CR10 worth 5900XP, the zombies are CR 1/4 worth 50XP
The DMG would calculate this as (2x5900 + 4x50) x2 for 6 creatures = 24,000
The party threshold for a deadly encounter would be 7x1400 + 2100 = 11,900
So based on that calculation, your initial suggested encounter is twice the threshold required to be considered deadly ... and that is without considering whether the party even has the tools needed to effectively damage the creatures.
Even with just one golem and four zombies the rating is still (5900+200) x2 = 12200 ... which is still in the deadly category but should be more doable.
In terms of actual play, the outcome depends on the dice rolls and strategies available to the players. Do the characters have magic weapons ... if not they will be doing zero damage. If they do have magic weapons ... do they get slowed? If they are slowed this is one attack/round against AC 17 ... which is about 50% chance to hit ... so maybe 5-8 points of damage/melee character/round. With the magic resistance it will be hard to land spells.
Average hit points are 178.
If you have a paladin with smites who gets a crit that could make a difference. If you have a bunch of warlocks using darkness+devils sight, that could make a difference. A party of 8 is large and will have a lot of actions. If they have some idea about the threat level of these golems and some strategies to deal with them, the ability to damage it and some luck, the encounter could be easier than expected. If your players are good at focused fire then they will probably target the golem and ignore zombies ... but those will still do some damage each round and may force concentration saving throws.
Anyway, if you decide to go with two, you might want to be a bit careful with it ... you also know the party capabilities so you are probably in a better position to judge how well it would work.
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I have a party of 8. 7 at 6th level and 1 at 8th. They are about to encounter 4 zombies and 2 stone golems.
Everything says this encounter should be deadly. Should I scale this back?
I'm not the best at calculating that sort of thing, but my personal opinion is that nothing is deadly if played right, both by party and DM. If you're at all worried you could always prepare to allow them a way out if need be. But that's just what I would do. Also depends on what you're going for- are you trying to scare them, badly injure them, kill them, or just give them an entertaining battle? Sorry I couldn't be of more help. This question often troubles me too.
I say the best way to figure this out is to make sure that you check the resistances and attack strengths of your creatures. The stone Golems are immune to any attack that is non magical; this can prove almost impossible to overcome to a party that does not have magical weapons in their inventory. The zombies are pretty standard so they may not be a problem to throw at the party so they may not need any changes. If you look at the creatures abilities and see that they will outclass/outplay your party or that their attacks hit too hard then i suggest making small changes such as lower health, less attack power, or change immunities to resistances so that even if they do not have the necessary weapons to deal full damage then they at least can try to outlast the creature. I hope that this helps and i wish you luck.
Could also have 2 waves; first the zombies then the golems;
Boldly go
I would be careful with the golems. The zombies really arent a problem at all, but golems difficulty is going to vary wildly depending on what the part has to damage them.
I would be careful with the golems. The zombies really arent a problem at all, but golems difficulty is going to vary wildly depending on what the part has to damage them.
I feel like I'm just going to echo what everyone else said. If each player has a way to consistently damage the golem, you should be okay (it will still be a tough fight, for sure, as that's over 300HP for them to whittle down). A party with a bunch of ranged or mounted attackers could pretty much kite the melee-only golems and make it far less deadly as they'd be out of the golems' range. The environment the fight will take place in is also a factor of difficulty.
If you want to make the encounter a little less deadly, you can always scale back the golems' HP.
One Stone Golem by itself would be a good challenge for them, and two would be really tough. The Zombies won't matter too much, given how much weaker they are than the party, but they'll soak up a turn or two of somebody's actions. So think about environmental factors: what could you include that the party can use to their advantage, like maybe some difficult terrain between them and the golems or some way they can restrain them.
Thanks for all the advice. I think the intention here is to scare the crap out of the players, not kill them, as this is not the finale of this Temple/dungeon. The Temple is very old so I think it works narratively to lower the stone golems' hit points. They've been there so long that the magic that animates them has faded a bit. Maybe even lower their speed by 5 ft per round.
Thanks again!
The zombies are trivial for a level 6 party with 8 players.
The stone golems could be deadly. First, they are immune to normal weapon damage. If your party has magical weapons then they have a chance. Without magical weapons they will probably not be able to do enough damage to knock them down. Second, and maybe more important, the stone golems have a 10' radius DC17 slow at will effect that recharges 1/3 of the time. Anyone within 10' even with proficiency in wisdom saves is going to fail ... at best a level 6 character is likely to have +4 from wis and +3 from proficiency if they are a wis caster. Typical fighter or barbarian will get a zero to modify their saves and will wind up slowed. Bye bye extra attack.
In addition:
Magic Resistance. The golem has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
This makes it much more challenging to debuff the golems. Blindness, which would be a good choice will be hard to stick.
In addition, they have a 17AC making them very hard for a level 6 with a typical +6 to +7 to hit (to actually hit) ... they will miss 1/2 the time.
In the meantime, the golems are doing 2 attacks each round at +10 to hit doing an average of 19.5 damage each time. At +10 to hit, they will be hitting most of the time against typical level 6 AC ... assuming 3/4 hit ... that is about 60 damage/combat round on average. A level 6 character will typically have less than that ... assuming the usual sort of tanking strategy .. you might have 2-3 melee tanks and these stand a good chance of being eliminated in 2-3 rounds. A single crit will do 6d8+6 ... which with bad luck might knock someone out right there.
Each stone golem is a CR10 worth 5900XP, the zombies are CR 1/4 worth 50XP
The DMG would calculate this as (2x5900 + 4x50) x2 for 6 creatures = 24,000
The party threshold for a deadly encounter would be 7x1400 + 2100 = 11,900
So based on that calculation, your initial suggested encounter is twice the threshold required to be considered deadly ... and that is without considering whether the party even has the tools needed to effectively damage the creatures.
Even with just one golem and four zombies the rating is still (5900+200) x2 = 12200 ... which is still in the deadly category but should be more doable.
In terms of actual play, the outcome depends on the dice rolls and strategies available to the players. Do the characters have magic weapons ... if not they will be doing zero damage. If they do have magic weapons ... do they get slowed? If they are slowed this is one attack/round against AC 17 ... which is about 50% chance to hit ... so maybe 5-8 points of damage/melee character/round. With the magic resistance it will be hard to land spells.
Average hit points are 178.
If you have a paladin with smites who gets a crit that could make a difference. If you have a bunch of warlocks using darkness+devils sight, that could make a difference. A party of 8 is large and will have a lot of actions. If they have some idea about the threat level of these golems and some strategies to deal with them, the ability to damage it and some luck, the encounter could be easier than expected. If your players are good at focused fire then they will probably target the golem and ignore zombies ... but those will still do some damage each round and may force concentration saving throws.
Anyway, if you decide to go with two, you might want to be a bit careful with it ... you also know the party capabilities so you are probably in a better position to judge how well it would work.