Very detailed explanation Hero and I don't disagree with what you've laid out here if we're talking about reality and practicality. I'm going for play-ability and balance which I don't feel the current set up does adequately. The jump in AC I don't feel holds true because you have multiple classes that can achieve the same or higher at lower levels, Clerics, Barbs, Monks with far less effort and cost.
What I've more or less settled on is about 5th level seems a reasonable place for players to be able to access plate. Depending on the setting and group composition and general personality of the party that will dictate what method I use to get it into their hands.
Good discussion, I appreciate all of the feedback and input!
Very detailed explanation Hero and I don't disagree with what you've laid out here if we're talking about reality and practicality. I'm going for play-ability and balance which I don't feel the current set up does adequately. The jump in AC I don't feel holds true because you have multiple classes that can achieve the same or higher at lower levels, Clerics, Barbs, Monks with far less effort and cost.
What I've more or less settled on is about 5th level seems a reasonable place for players to be able to access plate. Depending on the setting and group composition and general personality of the party that will dictate what method I use to get it into their hands.
Good discussion, I appreciate all of the feedback and input!
If we assume the standard array is the default, then a level 1 PC can have at most a 17 in one ability score. So +3. We will assume race optimization and the second ability score is a 15 (+2 to the first, +1 to the second). so a +2. So at first level Barbarian and Monk are at a 15 AC which I would assume is average. So both are going to have to forgo any feats and be like level 8 or 12 before they reach an AC of 20. (Depending on the use of a shield). This assumes both classes use dex based weapons. So I'm not sure how a Barbarian and Monk can reach 20 AC with far less effort and cost and at a lower level (outside of rolling some amazing ability scores using an optional character building concept, balance would assume the standard array not rolling). And I have no idea how a cleric is going to get an AC close to 20 before someone wearing full plate can.
The easiest solution: Is if the players are fighting humanoid foes they can loot it fairly soon. (maybe making them fight a few foes to piece together one that isn't badly damaged).
The reasoning behind it is that that high of AC at low levels is very difficult to contend with as a DM. If you start the game as a fighter and get plate + shield + defensive fighting style, you have 21 AC. If you look at creatures, they probably only have +4-6 to hit even at CR 2. Meaning all of the badguys are going to miss that fighter 75% of the time. When chance to miss gets over 50%, each percentage point beyond that increases effective HP by a large amount.
For example: Bob has 18 AC and 15 HP, Enemies have +5 attack, so they hit on a roll of 13+ (or 35% of the time) Bob has effective HP of 15 * 1/.35= 42.85 HP. Bill has 21 AC and 15 hp, enemies still have +5 attack so they hit on a roll of 16+ (or 20% of the time) Bill has an effective HP of 15*1/.20=75 HP. That 3 AC almost doubled Bills effective HP against +5 attacks.
Keep in mind this effective HP increase also increases the effective healing of spells on that character.
Basically if you are giving the fighter plate armor at low levels, and then if you play monsters as brainless hordes attacking whatever is in front, then the encounters will be easier than expected. If the badguys act intelligently and go after the targets that are not covered in a large metal box, then its less of a dramatic change in the game.
If it's a game I am running I always try to tailor the fight to make it adequately challenging for the group. In the case of a player with a high AC I use spellcasters to counter act that most commonly. Also I try as much as possible to employ tactics based on what the enemy is and their intelligence. Goblins can be pretty effective if they are outdoors, hobgoblins can be brutal in small groups where they can stay close to each other.
Clerics in chain mail with a shield + shield of faith can be AC 20 at level one. Barbs can be up to 19 at 4th level with an ASI in Dex + using a shield. Monks don't catch up until a bit later.
Given the game assumes something like six encounters per day, Shield of faith isn't really a reasonable assumption for a cleric. Especially at low levels because their spells might be better suited to doing something else rather than cast shield of faith. At any rate it isn't something you have to worry about every single encounter, unlike plate.
You don't have to "worry about" plate every single encounter - some encounters have saving throws, rather than attack rolls, and plate doesn't do anything for those.
Plus, you don't ever have to worry about some character's AC because you can shove or grapple them as well as attack somebody else. Or do what I do; roll dice, add modifiers, and hit ACs in the mid-twenties pretty frequently despite that I never fudge dice rolls (it's just really not that unlikely that PCs get hit by monsters, even in plate mail with a shield and some other bonuses).
You don't have to "worry about" plate every single encounter - some encounters have saving throws, rather than attack rolls, and plate doesn't do anything for those.
Plus, you don't ever have to worry about some character's AC because you can shove or grapple them as well as attack somebody else. Or do what I do; roll dice, add modifiers, and hit ACs in the mid-twenties pretty frequently despite that I never fudge dice rolls (it's just really not that unlikely that PCs get hit by monsters, even in plate mail with a shield and some other bonuses).
So at level one you frequently hit mid 20s from monsters?
Make it part of their background. Plate mail is more about status and money than experience. If they have a noble or knight background, they can have plate at level one.
So at level one you frequently hit mid 20s from monsters?
First, yes actually. Monsters pretty frequently have attack bonuses of +6 or so at CR 2 and up, plus there are a lot of ways for advantage to be gained, making a decently high roll even more likely.
Secondly, we both know that level one characters are very unlikely to actually have AC 20+ without the DM intentionally creating that situation. And any situation which a DM can create, they've also got the tools necessary to balance or accommodate, and it's pretty easy to figure out how to use them (i.e. "I gave the PCs high AC and I'm not happy about the result... I need higher attack rolls. Guess I better choose monsters that have higher attack bonuses or ways to boost them." is basically obvious).
Right but we are talking about the merrit of having a level one character with ac 20.
Okay. It's not that much of a merit. Just 2 AC more than most heavy armor using classes can start with using the gear picks from the class, which really isn't that big of a deal - because if it was, the game wouldn't be set up so that lighter armor using characters could end up with 2 (or more) lower AC than a character can get from just gear picks alone.
Given the game assumes something like six encounters per day, Shield of faith isn't really a reasonable assumption for a cleric. Especially at low levels because their spells might be better suited to doing something else rather than cast shield of faith. At any rate it isn't something you have to worry about every single encounter, unlike plate.
I'm glad you brought this up as this is one I also struggle with a bit. 6 encounters a day seems like a LOT to me. I have a hard time imagining a 1st level party being able to survive 6 encounters in one day with nothing but a short rest or two thrown in. That's a lot of combat with very few resources at that level. Has this been everyone's experience that you can realistically get in that many in one day?
I find that around three is more plausible and manageable for my groups and even that is pushing it if any of them are large encounters.
As to hitting high ACs at low levels I wasn't talking about trying to give players plate at level 1 but rather around level 5 where you encounters and monsters would have high hit modifiers and also spells etc. to help balance the encounter. Similar to what Aaron the Barb says I tailor the encounter to be an appropriate challenge for the players and their skills, not just a vanilla encounter they can faceroll because they have high AC, or a powerful magic item etc.
First, yes actually. Monsters pretty frequently have attack bonuses of +6 or so at CR 2 and up, plus there are a lot of ways for advantage to be gained, making a decently high roll even more likely.
Secondly, we both know that level one characters are very unlikely to actually have AC 20+ without the DM intentionally creating that situation. And any situation which a DM can create, they've also got the tools necessary to balance or accommodate, and it's pretty easy to figure out how to use them (i.e. "I gave the PCs high AC and I'm not happy about the result... I need higher attack rolls. Guess I better choose monsters that have higher attack bonuses or ways to boost them." is basically obvious).
This second part is what I was talking about, I don't recall anyone in my parties have AC 20 at first level BUT if that were the case as Aaron says you balance the encounter to match.
Given the game assumes something like six encounters per day, Shield of faith isn't really a reasonable assumption for a cleric. Especially at low levels because their spells might be better suited to doing something else rather than cast shield of faith. At any rate it isn't something you have to worry about every single encounter, unlike plate.
I'm glad you brought this up as this is one I also struggle with a bit. 6 encounters a day seems like a LOT to me. I have a hard time imagining a 1st level party being able to survive 6 encounters in one day with nothing but a short rest or two thrown in. That's a lot of combat with very few resources at that level. Has this been everyone's experience that you can realistically get in that many in one day?
I find that around three is more plausible and manageable for my groups and even that is pushing it if any of them are large encounters.
As to hitting high ACs at low levels I wasn't talking about trying to give players plate at level 1 but rather around level 5 where you encounters and monsters would have high hit modifiers and also spells etc. to help balance the encounter. Similar to what Aaron the Barb says I tailor the encounter to be an appropriate challenge for the players and their skills, not just a vanilla encounter they can faceroll because they have high AC, or a powerful magic item etc.
The premise of Dungeons and Dragons is that you are in a dungeon. It is where the game started and for better or worse is where the game ends up in terms of design. Hence, the number of encounters is really high because you are going to be going room to room fighting things. So six encounters is actually six rooms. If we take a party of four, encounter #1 is probably like two goblins guarding the entrance. The PCs most probably will score the initiative win and kill the goblins before the goblins have a chance to attack. If the goblins do get to attack, they are probably going to hit only one pc. So given most of the monsters are never going to get an attack on the PCs or if they do, they are going to miss more than hit, the number of encounters isn't that high. Remember it is like six encounters of medium difficulty, which really limits the number of monsters you can have, and the less monsters you have the weaker they become. So basically the game's design works well for six encounters a day and breaks down the more you try to push one or two major encounters a day. And really breaks down when you try having solo boss type fights.
I've found most games I've played in lean toward way less encounters that are harder. The downside is that almost guarantees party's will want to rest a lot as they know every encounter is going to be resource draining.
That makes a lot of sense when you break it down that way. I've had several adventures lately where rather than each room being an encounter it was a series of rooms chained together due to the mechanics of the encounter. One the party was on a ship and more or less had to clear room to room quickly and quietly or else the whole ship would be alerted. Felt like one rather large encounter but I guess technically it was quite a few with almost no pace between. Also had a similar one where we had to clear a prison area in the basement, the necromancer down there kept raising zombies and sending waves of them at us while we chased him through the place. Again several encounters in that one but a lot of them back to back to back made it fell like one very large one.
Technically if there is a break in combat, such as by moving to another room or being able to take a round without bad guys, that counts as one encounter. You could theoretically have all six encounters in the same room as long as they aren't continuous and you have at least a round or two to recoup/cast spells to heal yourself. That of course gets into the line of whether or not it is a new encounter or one with several waves.
So yeah if you guys went to different rooms on the ship, then those are actually different encounters. Even if it does feel like one long encounter because of how quickly they were back to back. You could have presumably healed up between fights via magic/potions/etc.
The really wild thing about the ship encounter was the group only ended up killing 3 enemies total. The rest were subdued by some very creative use of spells mostly but also disguises and trickery. It was pretty hilarious at the end of the entire thing there were something like close to 20 smugglers tied up on deck of the ship.
Put in an enemy that wears the armor. That enemy will in fact be an early end boss. Epic. Then you let your players loot the armor and try it on. They will find it does not really ft that well. So now they have to find a skilled craftsman with the equippment and time to adjust it to fit the PC in question. The cost and time to adjust it will be determined by you so that the fighter will get an appropriate AC soon enough. If you roll stats and you have Dex 20 light armor users by level 1 or 4 I'd make the time and gold cost low.
As a DM, I would take your question of cost and the desire for a Full suit of plate very seriously. The answer.. If your DM is willing... would be to Something along the lines of a One-on-One gaming session with said DM/GM. Possibly a Tournament/Contest setting where one of the rewards is a Full Suit of Armor, Weapons, and Gold..(Always Gold..)... OR.. A Short adventure/module, that includes an Armory as one of the rooms in the Adventure..... For myself, I have run a group through a dungeon where an Ancient dragon had died (Of old age), The Dragon had a Treasure Hoard that included several types of Excellent armors..The Group was Hired by a Certain Church to investigate rumors of the Dragons demise.... The Church Claimed 90% of the loot, but Left several Minor Magical and Common Items and Totally ignored the Dragons Scales and Hide...(The Dragon had only been dead a few days.).. Basically let your DM know what you are looking for in a game. I Prefer to talk to my players.. get an Idea of what they are looking for in a game, Usually it works out.. maybe not to total bliss but, Usually has a satisfying outcome.
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There are 3 sides to every Argument, Your point of view, Their point of view, and The Truth..... Be careful how you wield it, because the Truth cuts 3 Ways....
As an aside, I still find it very weird that people assign MMO roles (Tank, Healer, DPS) to D&D characters. :)
Idk I'm pretty sure D&D has always been played that way and the terminology just had to play catch up with the game.
I mean, Fighter (tank), Cleric (healer), Wizard (range dps), Rogue (melee dps) has been the staple group for as long as I can remember; though they were sometimes called something different, like thief for rogue or (I kid you not) "fighting-man" for fighter...
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
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Very detailed explanation Hero and I don't disagree with what you've laid out here if we're talking about reality and practicality. I'm going for play-ability and balance which I don't feel the current set up does adequately. The jump in AC I don't feel holds true because you have multiple classes that can achieve the same or higher at lower levels, Clerics, Barbs, Monks with far less effort and cost.
What I've more or less settled on is about 5th level seems a reasonable place for players to be able to access plate. Depending on the setting and group composition and general personality of the party that will dictate what method I use to get it into their hands.
Good discussion, I appreciate all of the feedback and input!
The easiest solution: Is if the players are fighting humanoid foes they can loot it fairly soon. (maybe making them fight a few foes to piece together one that isn't badly damaged).
The reasoning behind it is that that high of AC at low levels is very difficult to contend with as a DM. If you start the game as a fighter and get plate + shield + defensive fighting style, you have 21 AC. If you look at creatures, they probably only have +4-6 to hit even at CR 2. Meaning all of the badguys are going to miss that fighter 75% of the time. When chance to miss gets over 50%, each percentage point beyond that increases effective HP by a large amount.
For example: Bob has 18 AC and 15 HP, Enemies have +5 attack, so they hit on a roll of 13+ (or 35% of the time) Bob has effective HP of 15 * 1/.35= 42.85 HP. Bill has 21 AC and 15 hp, enemies still have +5 attack so they hit on a roll of 16+ (or 20% of the time) Bill has an effective HP of 15*1/.20=75 HP. That 3 AC almost doubled Bills effective HP against +5 attacks.
Keep in mind this effective HP increase also increases the effective healing of spells on that character.
Basically if you are giving the fighter plate armor at low levels, and then if you play monsters as brainless hordes attacking whatever is in front, then the encounters will be easier than expected. If the badguys act intelligently and go after the targets that are not covered in a large metal box, then its less of a dramatic change in the game.
If it's a game I am running I always try to tailor the fight to make it adequately challenging for the group. In the case of a player with a high AC I use spellcasters to counter act that most commonly. Also I try as much as possible to employ tactics based on what the enemy is and their intelligence. Goblins can be pretty effective if they are outdoors, hobgoblins can be brutal in small groups where they can stay close to each other.
Clerics in chain mail with a shield + shield of faith can be AC 20 at level one. Barbs can be up to 19 at 4th level with an ASI in Dex + using a shield. Monks don't catch up until a bit later.
Given the game assumes something like six encounters per day, Shield of faith isn't really a reasonable assumption for a cleric. Especially at low levels because their spells might be better suited to doing something else rather than cast shield of faith. At any rate it isn't something you have to worry about every single encounter, unlike plate.
You don't have to "worry about" plate every single encounter - some encounters have saving throws, rather than attack rolls, and plate doesn't do anything for those.
Plus, you don't ever have to worry about some character's AC because you can shove or grapple them as well as attack somebody else. Or do what I do; roll dice, add modifiers, and hit ACs in the mid-twenties pretty frequently despite that I never fudge dice rolls (it's just really not that unlikely that PCs get hit by monsters, even in plate mail with a shield and some other bonuses).
Make it part of their background. Plate mail is more about status and money than experience. If they have a noble or knight background, they can have plate at level one.
Right but we are talking about the merrit of having a level one character with ac 20.
That makes a lot of sense when you break it down that way. I've had several adventures lately where rather than each room being an encounter it was a series of rooms chained together due to the mechanics of the encounter. One the party was on a ship and more or less had to clear room to room quickly and quietly or else the whole ship would be alerted. Felt like one rather large encounter but I guess technically it was quite a few with almost no pace between. Also had a similar one where we had to clear a prison area in the basement, the necromancer down there kept raising zombies and sending waves of them at us while we chased him through the place. Again several encounters in that one but a lot of them back to back to back made it fell like one very large one.
Technically if there is a break in combat, such as by moving to another room or being able to take a round without bad guys, that counts as one encounter. You could theoretically have all six encounters in the same room as long as they aren't continuous and you have at least a round or two to recoup/cast spells to heal yourself. That of course gets into the line of whether or not it is a new encounter or one with several waves.
So yeah if you guys went to different rooms on the ship, then those are actually different encounters. Even if it does feel like one long encounter because of how quickly they were back to back. You could have presumably healed up between fights via magic/potions/etc.
The really wild thing about the ship encounter was the group only ended up killing 3 enemies total. The rest were subdued by some very creative use of spells mostly but also disguises and trickery. It was pretty hilarious at the end of the entire thing there were something like close to 20 smugglers tied up on deck of the ship.
Put in an enemy that wears the armor. That enemy will in fact be an early end boss. Epic. Then you let your players loot the armor and try it on. They will find it does not really ft that well. So now they have to find a skilled craftsman with the equippment and time to adjust it to fit the PC in question. The cost and time to adjust it will be determined by you so that the fighter will get an appropriate AC soon enough. If you roll stats and you have Dex 20 light armor users by level 1 or 4 I'd make the time and gold cost low.
As a DM, I would take your question of cost and the desire for a Full suit of plate very seriously. The answer.. If your DM is willing... would be to Something along the lines of a One-on-One gaming session with said DM/GM. Possibly a Tournament/Contest setting where one of the rewards is a Full Suit of Armor, Weapons, and Gold..(Always Gold..)... OR.. A Short adventure/module, that includes an Armory as one of the rooms in the Adventure..... For myself, I have run a group through a dungeon where an Ancient dragon had died (Of old age), The Dragon had a Treasure Hoard that included several types of Excellent armors..The Group was Hired by a Certain Church to investigate rumors of the Dragons demise.... The Church Claimed 90% of the loot, but Left several Minor Magical and Common Items and Totally ignored the Dragons Scales and Hide...(The Dragon had only been dead a few days.).. Basically let your DM know what you are looking for in a game. I Prefer to talk to my players.. get an Idea of what they are looking for in a game, Usually it works out.. maybe not to total bliss but, Usually has a satisfying outcome.
There are 3 sides to every Argument, Your point of view, Their point of view, and The Truth..... Be careful how you wield it, because the Truth cuts 3 Ways....
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.