Plate has always been a bit of an enigma to me as a DM. It's about the only thing I can think of that's an non magical equipment upgrade to a character that they must wait a long time to get. Pretty much by level two the rest of the party has the best normal armor and weapons they can equip but those that wear heavy armor still must wait and save up.
I'd love to hear some feedback on how other DMs handle this. Myself I usually find a way to get my players into Plate by level 5. Depending on the type of campaign and what they've been doing it can be through loot or some sort of quest or finding it almost akin to a magic item. I haven't found a way yet that sits really right with me though. If I throw so much gold at them they have enough to buy it early on it feels like I'm cheapening the value of gold. If I make them wait and scrimp and save I"m putting them at a disadvantage compared to their party mates. Other party members chipping in is also an option but I've also had players who have said they would definitely not donate their hard won gold to the plate wearer.
I love playing dwarves in plate armor and this thread strikes my heart strings.
DMG p. 38 has a chart on starting equipment for starting characters at higher levels. Unfortunately, that confirms that the designers really thought the 2000gp for plate is earned a levels closer to 10.
So, here are a couple of options;
1) Put it in an encounter. A bad guy wears plate. If the party defeats him, the fighter gets a good item of treasure.
2) Allow more downtime and background rules to let the character make a plate armor suit. 1/2 the cost and might mean more.
3) Put it in as a reward for a great service. There are lords, dwarven holds, etc. that could easily have an extra set around and be grateful for service.
4) Increase treasure and find a way costs for the other characters. Enforce mage spell book costs, dues, tithe, etc.
5) how is your party? I have seen some nice parties that make the fighter a low interest loan or larger share of the treasure to get armor. When I play the healing priest, I am always willing to suggest this :) The fact is, at low levels, buying armor is the most expensive thing, but at high levels, unless there is buying a keep, the fighter usually has the most extra funds. Being able to help others with spell Mat costs, research costs, etc. is usually the balance thing that makes casters want to borrow money to the fighter at low levels. My caster, looking at the long run, usually is also willing to help in this way, knowing he will get help later. But I seek out fellow players that see things this way, and know many parties are not like this.
6) change the module or treasure rolls. If the "random" roll is something no one in the party would use, I sub in something of the same value. There is a huge GP difference between an uncommon and rare item (DMG p 129) but subbing in 1-2 uncommon magic item and plate armor v. a rare item the party would not break balance.
The goal is telling a story that is fun the characters. There are lots of creative options that stay within "game balance" but allow your player to get plate at a level where it helps the party instead of at a level where every creature has such a large + to hit that plate has a reduced effect.
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--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Simple solution... You find plate mail in the dungeon.... Problem solved,
It's rare to have a group that will actually have group gold and help each other out. Would make the game much better though. If you want a player to have plate mail you either let them find it 2) have a character give them some 3) give away lots of gold until they can afford it.
It's rare to have a group that will actually have group gold and help each other out.
Really? Guess I've just been lucky that nearly all of the people I've ever gamed with (across multiple cities, states, groups, and play-styles) prefer using party inventory and funds rather than everyone tracking their own, and also included quite a few players that would gift another player funds if their character wanted to buy something useful but was short while everyone had to track their own funds.
Have you actually presented folks with the option to use a shared inventory and/or wealth and they've specifically shot it down, or is it just that everyone defaulted to splitting everything and no one has brought up doing it differently?
Not only expensive, but I also make it a point that you can't buy Plate in just any 'ol store. You'd have to travel to a larger town (or city) to find a blacksmith or shop that sells it. It doesn't have to be too hard, but just that the back woods town with a census of ~50 probably doesn't sell something like this.
However, I have no problem with PCs taking the plate off an NPC they killed, and then spending some gold to repair it and size it for themselves (thus at least saving them some money). Assuming also that the describe how they're carrying it back :)
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Be careful what you Wish for... your DM may just give it to you!
The groups I've gamed in and also DM'd for have all preferred to do individual loot, there has been some sharing of resources as needed but generally speaking each keeps their own share. Normally one person is designated the pack mule to carry the group loot items to be sold once returning to town.
I guess more what my question is getting at is at what level should players be expected to acquire plate? I can use any mechanism to make that happen I was more looking for the at what level do you let your players, or have you gotten it?
Again the biggest issue I have being that the plate wearer is the only one waiting to optimize their equipment past the first few levels, magic items excluded of course. The 1,500 gp price tag just seems very out of line with any of the other equipment, Splint at 1 AC less than plate and 5 pounds lighter only costs 200 gp and is identical in every other way. Even using the starting equipment guidelines from the DMG p. 38 as a reference even in a high magic campaign with a max roll you'd only net 750 gp at 10th level.
It's rare to have a group that will actually have group gold and help each other out. Would make the game much better though. If you want a player to have plate mail you either let them find it 2) have a character give them some 3) give away lots of gold until they can afford it.
I find this surprising. As a player I'm usually assigned "track gear for the party" because I'm the "Party Secretary" and Excel monkey. I keep a shared GDoc of all party gear and campaign notes.
It's been common in lots of my groups to create a "Party Fund".
All loot is divided by the number of players + 1.
The +1 player is the "Party Fund". This is where we buy healing items and other gear/loot not "owned" by a player but the party as a whole. In addition party members can "borrow" of the bank of "The Party" in addition to other players.
So here's maybe a dumb question: What's to stop you as the DM from just...letting a PC start with plate mail? Esp if they can justify it with their backstory.
So here's maybe a dumb question: What's to stop you as the DM from just...letting a PC start with plate mail? Esp if they can justify it with their backstory.
I would say probably being fair to the other players.
Usually though its because the pc would have an AC of 20 while everyone else is typical stuck with an AC around 15ish. At least as far as I know the typical reason against it is because of the high jump in AC compared to everyone else.
Though it might also be that a lot of games I've ended up in have had like six - ten players.
I don't think that's related. My typical group size over the years has been 8 players plus DM, with occasional campaigns reaching as many as 15 players, and they all used shared group funds and inventory as soon as someone brought up the idea because it works better for everyone (except the sort of jerk player that wants to hoard an item that someone else in the party could use to everyone's benefit so they can sell it in secret and buy something for them self - but that is best dealt with by telling the player to stop being a jerk or find somewhere else to play).
How is it unfair to certain players that their tank can do their job more effectively? It's a cooperative game, not a competitive one.
Because you are giving one person something while everyone could likewise use something for their character. One could argue the person doesn't really need plate at that level.
Can anyone justify for me the cost of plate mail? Yeah I get that it takes a skilled craftsman and all that but seriously it's 1300 gold more than the next closest thing which to me just seems way out of line with any other piece of gear going.
Can anyone justify for me the cost of plate mail? Yeah I get that it takes a skilled craftsman and all that but seriously it's 1300 gold more than the next closest thing which to me just seems way out of line with any other piece of gear going.
It's D&D tradition at this point. In almost every edition of the game that there has been the suit of plate armor, it has been extremely more expensive than other armor options (making special note that the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia version of the game had something called plate mail (chain mail reinforced by shaped metal plates) that was much more comparable in price to the other armors, but also had "suit armor" (which other editions would call "full plate" or "plate mail") which was significantly more expensive but also provided more significant benefits than other armors).
Back in the day, the justification presented was along the lines of that type of armor being the pinnacle of in-game modern armor craft, so the price was made larger by not just needing more metal and taking up more of the smith's time, but also for the rarity of the skill to make the stuff.
Can anyone justify for me the cost of plate mail? Yeah I get that it takes a skilled craftsman and all that but seriously it's 1300 gold more than the next closest thing which to me just seems way out of line with any other piece of gear going.
I can in fact justify it.
First, in any economy the cost to produce an item is irrelevant to its price. Price is always dictated by Supply and Demand. It is realistically possible for Leather armor to cost more than plate armor for this reason, as price is a function of supply and demand, not the cost of making the item. So if one wants to look toward realism, it is an error to discuss the cost of making it. (Essentially the cost to make it only determines whether it will in fact get made, not how much its final cost will be).
Technically a knight in full plate is a sitting duck once they fall of their horse (Full Plate is just way too heavy to move around in not to mention hot). So we can assume that your typical NPC simply cannot wear full plate, has no need for it, and is better served by lower armor. So Specialized soldiers who have a way above average strength are the ones who demand the armor. Essentially Full Plate is probably usually one of those items only commissioned by the crown and rarely produced for private individuals.
So I'm going to assume the demand for full plate is very low. In addition the supply of full plate is very low. You can sell more leather armor and earn more than you could from producing full plate and trying to find someone who wants it. So your average armor smith ignores making full plate, as any blacksmith would rather have gold today than wait five years or so for a random adventurer to wonder into town to buy the armor.
Adventures also really want full plate, and the kingdoms of the world compete for the production of full plate and control lots of money. So Adventurers willingness to pay a lot for the armor combined with the crowns actual ability to pay a lot for the armor (and potential willingness to do so) helps to increase the cost of the armor.
So Low Demand, Low Supply, and willing to pay lots for it (by the crown, if not by the adventurer themselves) results in expensive armor. (The times it takes a skilled craftsman to make the armor only helps with the low supply problem.)
So realistically it doesn't matter what the item below it costs, Plate Armor is reasonably higher than everything else because of economics. Should D&D ignore economics? That is a different debate. But if you were in a D&D world, you would likely find Plate Armor insanely expensive and rare to find because most people, the guys and gals who actually help the armor smith make a living, don't have a use to walk around town in plate armor.
From a game standpoint the reason it is more expensive is because of the Jump in AC. At low levels it helps to have everyone roughly at the same AC to help ease encounters because of the low bonus to attack. By keeping a player out of plate until later levels you can help ease the issue of having a player with 20 AC.
Plate has always been a bit of an enigma to me as a DM. It's about the only thing I can think of that's an non magical equipment upgrade to a character that they must wait a long time to get. Pretty much by level two the rest of the party has the best normal armor and weapons they can equip but those that wear heavy armor still must wait and save up.
I'd love to hear some feedback on how other DMs handle this. Myself I usually find a way to get my players into Plate by level 5. Depending on the type of campaign and what they've been doing it can be through loot or some sort of quest or finding it almost akin to a magic item. I haven't found a way yet that sits really right with me though. If I throw so much gold at them they have enough to buy it early on it feels like I'm cheapening the value of gold. If I make them wait and scrimp and save I"m putting them at a disadvantage compared to their party mates. Other party members chipping in is also an option but I've also had players who have said they would definitely not donate their hard won gold to the plate wearer.
So how do you guys handle it?
I love playing dwarves in plate armor and this thread strikes my heart strings.
DMG p. 38 has a chart on starting equipment for starting characters at higher levels. Unfortunately, that confirms that the designers really thought the 2000gp for plate is earned a levels closer to 10.
So, here are a couple of options;
1) Put it in an encounter. A bad guy wears plate. If the party defeats him, the fighter gets a good item of treasure.
2) Allow more downtime and background rules to let the character make a plate armor suit. 1/2 the cost and might mean more.
3) Put it in as a reward for a great service. There are lords, dwarven holds, etc. that could easily have an extra set around and be grateful for service.
4) Increase treasure and find a way costs for the other characters. Enforce mage spell book costs, dues, tithe, etc.
5) how is your party? I have seen some nice parties that make the fighter a low interest loan or larger share of the treasure to get armor. When I play the healing priest, I am always willing to suggest this :) The fact is, at low levels, buying armor is the most expensive thing, but at high levels, unless there is buying a keep, the fighter usually has the most extra funds. Being able to help others with spell Mat costs, research costs, etc. is usually the balance thing that makes casters want to borrow money to the fighter at low levels. My caster, looking at the long run, usually is also willing to help in this way, knowing he will get help later. But I seek out fellow players that see things this way, and know many parties are not like this.
6) change the module or treasure rolls. If the "random" roll is something no one in the party would use, I sub in something of the same value. There is a huge GP difference between an uncommon and rare item (DMG p 129) but subbing in 1-2 uncommon magic item and plate armor v. a rare item the party would not break balance.
The goal is telling a story that is fun the characters. There are lots of creative options that stay within "game balance" but allow your player to get plate at a level where it helps the party instead of at a level where every creature has such a large + to hit that plate has a reduced effect.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
Simple solution... You find plate mail in the dungeon.... Problem solved,
It's rare to have a group that will actually have group gold and help each other out. Would make the game much better though. If you want a player to have plate mail you either let them find it 2) have a character give them some 3) give away lots of gold until they can afford it.
Not only expensive, but I also make it a point that you can't buy Plate in just any 'ol store. You'd have to travel to a larger town (or city) to find a blacksmith or shop that sells it. It doesn't have to be too hard, but just that the back woods town with a census of ~50 probably doesn't sell something like this.
However, I have no problem with PCs taking the plate off an NPC they killed, and then spending some gold to repair it and size it for themselves (thus at least saving them some money). Assuming also that the describe how they're carrying it back :)
Be careful what you Wish for... your DM may just give it to you!
Pretty much everyone defaulted to it. Usually with the character who finds the item hoarding it.
Granted Im usually not the person running the games.
Though it might also be that a lot of games I've ended up in have had like six - ten players.
The groups I've gamed in and also DM'd for have all preferred to do individual loot, there has been some sharing of resources as needed but generally speaking each keeps their own share. Normally one person is designated the pack mule to carry the group loot items to be sold once returning to town.
I guess more what my question is getting at is at what level should players be expected to acquire plate? I can use any mechanism to make that happen I was more looking for the at what level do you let your players, or have you gotten it?
Again the biggest issue I have being that the plate wearer is the only one waiting to optimize their equipment past the first few levels, magic items excluded of course. The 1,500 gp price tag just seems very out of line with any of the other equipment, Splint at 1 AC less than plate and 5 pounds lighter only costs 200 gp and is identical in every other way. Even using the starting equipment guidelines from the DMG p. 38 as a reference even in a high magic campaign with a max roll you'd only net 750 gp at 10th level.
So here's maybe a dumb question: What's to stop you as the DM from just...letting a PC start with plate mail? Esp if they can justify it with their backstory.
Wished I played in a game where there was party funds.
How is it unfair to certain players that their tank can do their job more effectively? It's a cooperative game, not a competitive one.
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Can anyone justify for me the cost of plate mail? Yeah I get that it takes a skilled craftsman and all that but seriously it's 1300 gold more than the next closest thing which to me just seems way out of line with any other piece of gear going.