I recently started a campaign for some of my friends at school. I wasn’t super excited to do it, but they were really excited, and I was the only one they knew who could DM. All of the players come from the same friend group. Within the group there is someone who is kind of just tagging along. He’s the least liked, and the group would more or less function the same without him.
He heard us talking about it at the lunch table, and thought he should be part of it too. He kind of just showed up at the first meeting. We weren’t opposed, just a little skeptical. He was the only one who didn’t show up with a character. I let him borrow one of the starter set prewritten characters (which were returned in bad condition). Eventually I worked with him to get a character going. But he always asks the same questions, and I’m constantly reminding him what dice to roll, how to add his ability modifiers and proficiency modifiers. Things the other newbies have mastered long since. The other players constantly remark how his character takes away from the party and slows down combat behind his back.
During christmas, all of my players got PHBs, as I requested them to. So at this point I almost think we’ve gone too far. We’re already to invested in the game, and if I kick him out now, I’ll have to deal with his parents as well. No one wants to see their kid kicked out of a social group by a unanimous vote from his “friends.”
Hes making my experience as a DM less enjoyable, and most of the other players are indifferent, or are pretty blunt about not liking him.
if I end up making the decision, how should I do it?
I have had a similar issue in the past, I'll give you some information on how I resolved mine and how you may work towards resolving yours.
At the time, I was a player in a group and we had just started playing Curse of Strahd with a party of 5. One of the members of the party (We will call him: Jon) was brand new to D&D and was great to play with for the first couple of sessions as he was willing to learn and was pretty invested. Eventually, he started to do a few things that bothered me and the rest of the group. Not necessarily in-game things, but other things that took the rest of the party out of immersion. Such as: Sitting on his phone mid-session, showing other players things on his phone, and overall being a distraction.
We collectively agreed that he just wasn't that into it anymore, we stopped asking him to come to D&D and he simply just stopped coming. He wasn't bothered about this at all, he now realises we have started a new campaign but he isn't at all bothered that he isn't involved. I think this is due to the fact that he most likely didn't want to be there either but didn't want to let the group down.
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Now, your problem:
It seems as though your problem is similar to the early stages of mine, your player seems invested but just not quite "getting it"
If it's purely him messing up rules/taking too long in combat, I've got a few suggestions for you as a DM.
1. One of the things I love to do as a DM is what I call Slow Reaction Priority.
Essentially, if it comes around to one of my players on the turn order and they sit there for quite some time, trying to decide what to do, I simply say that their character takes a little longer to cast their spell/decide what to do than normal and I move on to the next player/monster in the initiative order. Then, I come back to that player after that player/monster.
E.g: Billy is trying to decide which creature to shoot with his crossbow, and is taking some time. "Billy, as you stand there, observing your foes, trying to decide which would be the best to take down, your thoughts are interrupted by the large Berserker who charges at you with his greataxe drawn"
A very important part of this is to let your players know before the session that this is a gameplay technique you will be using. I made this mistake with a new player and they got upset as they simply thought I was skipping them for being slow. So please let your players know, and inform them that casting a spell one turn later in the turn order isn't that bad at all. And it gives them a whole other turn to think about what they are doing.
2. As bad as it sounds, railroad him.
If he's taking far too long on an out of combat decision, or if he often doesn't know how to do something exactly, just do it for him. Occasionally he may interrupt you saying that it isn't what he would like to do, but be accepting of this and adjust.
For example: If he wants to try to open a door, but can't decide how to do it and has thieves tools. Simply reply to him saying he wants to open the door with "You approach the door and pull out your set of thieves tools and meticulously work away at the lock, roll a d20" rather than: "I want to open this door!" "Okay, how will you do it?" "Hmm, ummm, give me a sec"
3. One final note, make his real-life flaws character flaws.
If he is generally slow at playing the game, introduce this as a flaw of his character. One of the members of my party used to be very annoying to play with, he would essentially think of himself as the "main character" and would try to do anything and everything he could.
After a while of this being frustrating, it became humorous as it became part of his character. NPC's would often become angry with him as he was distracted from his tasks, or he would be doing too many things at once and end up messing them all up.
This changed from something we all hated, to something we came to love about his character. And rather than him be upset that we thought he was doing too much, he also found it humorous because the flaw represented his character now, not him.
-
I apologise for the many paragraphs, but I hope this information helps. If none of this advice works for you, and he truly needs to be cut from the group, make sure the rest of the group first agrees.
Avoid bullying him out of the group and simply talk to him, whether it be face to face or a few simple messages.
Don't come at him like you're attacking what he does, but talk to him about it. Ask if he could improve, why he's struggling, and if he would be upset if the group continued without him.
If he doesn't want to leave, find a way you can make it work. After all, D&D is a group to be played with friends and one of the hardest and most important jobs as a DM is to make sure that EVERYBODY is having fun.
Hope this helps, let me know how things go. Cheers!
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This seems to be an unfortunate trend. Not sure just how long its been since your group formed, but it could be the player is dealing with things in RL, and sometimes those can be a subconscious distraction. If he's legit not interested, though, it could be you need to ask him or her straight up if they really wish to play. I know that almost every thread advises to not be confrontational, which I'd echo. I would encourage you all to have patience. In this day and age with emotional issues that are fueled by bullying and rejection from family and peers, this person may just be looking for acceptance and inclusion and maybe doesn't quite know how to deal with a like-minded group. Just hypothesizing there. Not saying you should guilt yourself into keeping them in the group, just encouraging you to take a holistic view of everything that may be fueling the tabletop issues. Savraeth made a good suggestion about the slow combat, which I've seen a DM use sporadically when a pc was having issues deciding what to do. No one seems to bat an eye at it.
Whatever the decision or outcome is, I wish you well.
I recently started a campaign for some of my friends at school. I wasn’t super excited to do it, but they were really excited, and I was the only one they knew who could DM. All of the players come from the same friend group. Within the group there is someone who is kind of just tagging along. He’s the least liked, and the group would more or less function the same without him.
He heard us talking about it at the lunch table, and thought he should be part of it too. He kind of just showed up at the first meeting. We weren’t opposed, just a little skeptical. He was the only one who didn’t show up with a character. I let him borrow one of the starter set prewritten characters (which were returned in bad condition). Eventually I worked with him to get a character going. But he always asks the same questions, and I’m constantly reminding him what dice to roll, how to add his ability modifiers and proficiency modifiers. Things the other newbies have mastered long since. The other players constantly remark how his character takes away from the party and slows down combat behind his back.
During christmas, all of my players got PHBs, as I requested them to. So at this point I almost think we’ve gone too far. We’re already to invested in the game, and if I kick him out now, I’ll have to deal with his parents as well. No one wants to see their kid kicked out of a social group by a unanimous vote from his “friends.”
Hes making my experience as a DM less enjoyable, and most of the other players are indifferent, or are pretty blunt about not liking him.
if I end up making the decision, how should I do it?
Dude, sounds like you just don't like the guy. You have a choice, live with that, or act upon it.
If you chose to act upon it, it will be hard and there will be consequences, but that doesn't make it the wrong answer.
That is true. Out the entire friend group I have, I only consider two to be actual friends. Most of my good friends are perfectly content with not playing D&D.
He’s the only person I slightly dislike, all the others are fine. He makes excuses all the time, and tries to deflect his failures onto others to make himself look not as guilty. He came to our last meeting 20 minutes late because he claimed his clock was broken (even though we all know he can just look at his phone).
I talked to the rest of the players and they all agree. All of us are fine with asking him to leave, but knowing him he will rebuke, and get very defensive. Also, even though I’m not his friend, I don’t really want to start a conflict between him and the rest of the group.
What have you guys done when your players reacted poorly?
Deal with the situation in a neutral location, it's harder to handle the situation if you're at their place or yours. Once you give them the news, thank them for their time, and walk away. They can start all the drama they want, but you don't have to be there for it. From that point on, be respectful, no matter what the other person may do. Not everyone can handle difficult situations well, it doesn't mean there has to be mud slinging from both sides. You and your table be respectful and it will all pass in time.
Eventually I worked with him to get a character going. But he always asks the same questions, and I’m constantly reminding him what dice to roll, how to add his ability modifiers and proficiency modifiers. Things the other newbies have mastered long since. The other players constantly remark how his character takes away from the party and slows down combat behind his back.
Maybe I will just be "that guy" here, but it sounds like you could do better stepping up to the challenge from a DM perspective on either side of this equation. I've sat with my slowest players in various groups and asked: "What are you not understanding" and took the time to explain. I could care less if there are questions, everyone starts differently and integrates at different places. Get the guy on DNDBeyond and most of those questions could be resolved. Also, if you have behavior that disrupts the game you need to address it at the time after the session by pulling the player aside, not '"behind his back".
I'm glad you admitted it has less to do with the game and is really down to your dislike and not the questions; but even then - from a personal level - why not just be direct and point it out to the player: (a) You seem to be having a hard time grasping the rules, what help do you need? (b) You don't seem interested (late/broken clock/etc); and whatever else you add and see what they say. Unless it is purely your dislike for the guy and I don't see why you need to ask, except for validation, since at that point it really isn't a DM/D&D question but a "how to I tell Bob I hate him" question.
I've only once or twice kicked out players; and I have many times fired people from work that did not live up to standards or didn't mesh with the team. In both cases it was about being direct, giving feedback, setting expectations, and then acting when there was a failure to meet expectations. That truly reduces the drama down to logical points, but also has (in many cases) caused dramatic turnarounds in the individual and made them valuable. If you only slightly dislike (as opposed to detest) this guy, maybe giving them the opportunity to change is a right path. Otherwise, pull the band-aid off.
* Edit: Was a bit more inflammatory then I intended with original wording.
I recently started a campaign for some of my friends at school. I wasn’t super excited to do it, but they were really excited, and I was the only one they knew who could DM. All of the players come from the same friend group. Within the group there is someone who is kind of just tagging along. He’s the least liked, and the group would more or less function the same without him.
He heard us talking about it at the lunch table, and thought he should be part of it too. He kind of just showed up at the first meeting. We weren’t opposed, just a little skeptical. He was the only one who didn’t show up with a character. I let him borrow one of the starter set prewritten characters (which were returned in bad condition). Eventually I worked with him to get a character going. But he always asks the same questions, and I’m constantly reminding him what dice to roll, how to add his ability modifiers and proficiency modifiers. Things the other newbies have mastered long since. The other players constantly remark how his character takes away from the party and slows down combat behind his back.
During christmas, all of my players got PHBs, as I requested them to. So at this point I almost think we’ve gone too far. We’re already to invested in the game, and if I kick him out now, I’ll have to deal with his parents as well. No one wants to see their kid kicked out of a social group by a unanimous vote from his “friends.”
Hes making my experience as a DM less enjoyable, and most of the other players are indifferent, or are pretty blunt about not liking him.
if I end up making the decision, how should I do it?
I have had a similar issue in the past, I'll give you some information on how I resolved mine and how you may work towards resolving yours.
At the time, I was a player in a group and we had just started playing Curse of Strahd with a party of 5.
One of the members of the party (We will call him: Jon) was brand new to D&D and was great to play with for the first couple of sessions as he was willing to learn and was pretty invested.
Eventually, he started to do a few things that bothered me and the rest of the group. Not necessarily in-game things, but other things that took the rest of the party out of immersion. Such as: Sitting on his phone mid-session, showing other players things on his phone, and overall being a distraction.
We collectively agreed that he just wasn't that into it anymore, we stopped asking him to come to D&D and he simply just stopped coming.
He wasn't bothered about this at all, he now realises we have started a new campaign but he isn't at all bothered that he isn't involved. I think this is due to the fact that he most likely didn't want to be there either but didn't want to let the group down.
-
Now, your problem:
It seems as though your problem is similar to the early stages of mine, your player seems invested but just not quite "getting it"
If it's purely him messing up rules/taking too long in combat, I've got a few suggestions for you as a DM.
1.
One of the things I love to do as a DM is what I call Slow Reaction Priority.
Essentially, if it comes around to one of my players on the turn order and they sit there for quite some time, trying to decide what to do, I simply say that their character takes a little longer to cast their spell/decide what to do than normal and I move on to the next player/monster in the initiative order. Then, I come back to that player after that player/monster.
E.g: Billy is trying to decide which creature to shoot with his crossbow, and is taking some time. "Billy, as you stand there, observing your foes, trying to decide which would be the best to take down, your thoughts are interrupted by the large Berserker who charges at you with his greataxe drawn"
A very important part of this is to let your players know before the session that this is a gameplay technique you will be using. I made this mistake with a new player and they got upset as they simply thought I was skipping them for being slow. So please let your players know, and inform them that casting a spell one turn later in the turn order isn't that bad at all. And it gives them a whole other turn to think about what they are doing.
2.
As bad as it sounds, railroad him.
If he's taking far too long on an out of combat decision, or if he often doesn't know how to do something exactly, just do it for him.
Occasionally he may interrupt you saying that it isn't what he would like to do, but be accepting of this and adjust.
For example: If he wants to try to open a door, but can't decide how to do it and has thieves tools.
Simply reply to him saying he wants to open the door with "You approach the door and pull out your set of thieves tools and meticulously work away at the lock, roll a d20"
rather than:
"I want to open this door!" "Okay, how will you do it?" "Hmm, ummm, give me a sec"
3.
One final note, make his real-life flaws character flaws.
If he is generally slow at playing the game, introduce this as a flaw of his character.
One of the members of my party used to be very annoying to play with, he would essentially think of himself as the "main character" and would try to do anything and everything he could.
After a while of this being frustrating, it became humorous as it became part of his character. NPC's would often become angry with him as he was distracted from his tasks, or he would be doing too many things at once and end up messing them all up.
This changed from something we all hated, to something we came to love about his character.
And rather than him be upset that we thought he was doing too much, he also found it humorous because the flaw represented his character now, not him.
-
I apologise for the many paragraphs, but I hope this information helps.
If none of this advice works for you, and he truly needs to be cut from the group, make sure the rest of the group first agrees.
Avoid bullying him out of the group and simply talk to him, whether it be face to face or a few simple messages.
Don't come at him like you're attacking what he does, but talk to him about it.
Ask if he could improve, why he's struggling, and if he would be upset if the group continued without him.
If he doesn't want to leave, find a way you can make it work. After all, D&D is a group to be played with friends and one of the hardest and most important jobs as a DM is to make sure that EVERYBODY is having fun.
Hope this helps, let me know how things go.
Cheers!
Dengram Pummelfist - Dwarf Fighter (Champion) - The Depths of Mount Ingernet
This is - to say the least - a controversial topic.
There is a recent thread here on this very topic worth checking out.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
This seems to be an unfortunate trend. Not sure just how long its been since your group formed, but it could be the player is dealing with things in RL, and sometimes those can be a subconscious distraction. If he's legit not interested, though, it could be you need to ask him or her straight up if they really wish to play. I know that almost every thread advises to not be confrontational, which I'd echo. I would encourage you all to have patience. In this day and age with emotional issues that are fueled by bullying and rejection from family and peers, this person may just be looking for acceptance and inclusion and maybe doesn't quite know how to deal with a like-minded group. Just hypothesizing there. Not saying you should guilt yourself into keeping them in the group, just encouraging you to take a holistic view of everything that may be fueling the tabletop issues. Savraeth made a good suggestion about the slow combat, which I've seen a DM use sporadically when a pc was having issues deciding what to do. No one seems to bat an eye at it.
Whatever the decision or outcome is, I wish you well.
Dude, sounds like you just don't like the guy. You have a choice, live with that, or act upon it.
If you chose to act upon it, it will be hard and there will be consequences, but that doesn't make it the wrong answer.
Journeyman DM
Journeyman Adventurer
That is true. Out the entire friend group I have, I only consider two to be actual friends. Most of my good friends are perfectly content with not playing D&D.
He’s the only person I slightly dislike, all the others are fine. He makes excuses all the time, and tries to deflect his failures onto others to make himself look not as guilty. He came to our last meeting 20 minutes late because he claimed his clock was broken (even though we all know he can just look at his phone).
I talked to the rest of the players and they all agree. All of us are fine with asking him to leave, but knowing him he will rebuke, and get very defensive. Also, even though I’m not his friend, I don’t really want to start a conflict between him and the rest of the group.
What have you guys done when your players reacted poorly?
Deal with the situation in a neutral location, it's harder to handle the situation if you're at their place or yours. Once you give them the news, thank them for their time, and walk away. They can start all the drama they want, but you don't have to be there for it. From that point on, be respectful, no matter what the other person may do. Not everyone can handle difficult situations well, it doesn't mean there has to be mud slinging from both sides. You and your table be respectful and it will all pass in time.
Maybe I will just be "that guy" here, but it sounds like you could do better stepping up to the challenge from a DM perspective on either side of this equation. I've sat with my slowest players in various groups and asked: "What are you not understanding" and took the time to explain. I could care less if there are questions, everyone starts differently and integrates at different places. Get the guy on DNDBeyond and most of those questions could be resolved. Also, if you have behavior that disrupts the game you need to address it at the time after the session by pulling the player aside, not '"behind his back".
I'm glad you admitted it has less to do with the game and is really down to your dislike and not the questions; but even then - from a personal level - why not just be direct and point it out to the player: (a) You seem to be having a hard time grasping the rules, what help do you need? (b) You don't seem interested (late/broken clock/etc); and whatever else you add and see what they say. Unless it is purely your dislike for the guy and I don't see why you need to ask, except for validation, since at that point it really isn't a DM/D&D question but a "how to I tell Bob I hate him" question.
I've only once or twice kicked out players; and I have many times fired people from work that did not live up to standards or didn't mesh with the team. In both cases it was about being direct, giving feedback, setting expectations, and then acting when there was a failure to meet expectations. That truly reduces the drama down to logical points, but also has (in many cases) caused dramatic turnarounds in the individual and made them valuable. If you only slightly dislike (as opposed to detest) this guy, maybe giving them the opportunity to change is a right path. Otherwise, pull the band-aid off.
* Edit: Was a bit more inflammatory then I intended with original wording.