I want to start this off by saying: I am not writing this to complain, I am writing this for constructive ideas and approaches.
I'm playing in a game that could be rather fantastic if the DM wasn't making a few mistakes that seem to be souring it for the group. I've spoken with all of the other players and we're in agreement that it would be great if we could help the current DM change some of the habits that they have. The game is very much on rails, even when the DM thinks they're trying to allow player agency, there is a clear cut "two choices" approach to the story so far. The DM is the type to take criticism as a personal attack, I've tried to use my experience as a tool to give different views on how situations could be handled and it is very apparent that the message was received poorly. There is also a problem with being able to handle things that are outlier choices, tending to frustrate and stump the DM to where it comes back as a flat "no you can't do that" type response. Lastly, the DM has a self-image issue so most confrontations can devolve into a self-depreciating or combatitive scenario often. My goal is to figure out ways, as a fellow DM, I can work with him to help improve their trade and help the game grow and evolve into what the DM wants and what we want as players.
Is there a way that any of you have used in game actions, as a player, to promote player agency when on rails? -We are all well aware that the game is based on, to the point of almost being a re-enactment, a story line from a medium he is very fond of. This was understood from the onset, so it's not a surprise to us, but it is rather daunting to be following a script.
Have any of you dealt with a DM who's been difficult to tutor, and what approaches have you used successfully? -I don't want to alienate the DM, and I don't want them to quit, and I don't want them to feel attacked, but I do want to open up discussions about improving/changing the approach they've taken.
How have you promoted your style of DMing to another DM when your approaches are significantly different? -I'm very much an improv DM, I fly by the seat of my pants for 90% of my sessions. It seems this DM has everything scripted with little wiggle room. I'd like to help impress the need for some flexibility for the random to influence what's going on in the game.
I'll most likely have more questions, as I'd like to improve on myself as a DM Tutor, thank you all in advance for your input.
I am a horrible passenger. When I was first married, I would sit on the edge of my seat mashing an invisible brake pedal, or politely suggesting that more or less space between us and the cars around us would be better, I even think I asked my wife if her mirrors were correctly adjusted. After a few months of side eye and exasperation it was eventually resolved that I would do the driving from now on. 26 years of happy marriage later, I still do all of the driving...period. 15 hour trip to Florida from Maryland and it is my butt that is in that seat because there is no way in God's green Earth that she is going to go through all that again. She is happy now to just sit and read or play a game on her iPad, whilst I express my manly pride in getting her and the kids safely to our destination.
There is a point here: Are you a horrible passenger? Has your time in the DM's chair made you acutely aware of all the little things that you would do differently than the current DM? Are you aware that DMing is a hobby and not a Trade (unless of course you do it for compensation)?
Let us assume that none of the above is true and that the DM i question is "at fault"...for what ever that means.
One of the things you mentioned is that the DM clearly indicated that he would be running a game based on a set scenario. It is like in Star Wars RPGs where no matter what the Players decide to do their PCs will never be able to end the threat of the Empire before the Emperor meets his destined end onboard the Death Star II at the hands of Vader. Or taking any meaningful action at all in the Dragonlance Mythos. We can go on and on, but the point is clear that this is what you and the group signed up for: a game with rails, if not high guard rails. It is very passive aggressive to use in game stunts to reassert "agency" in such cases. Just take the hooks and follow them to complete the story instead of trying to find solutions that will lead you "off the rails".
Next, it is not your place, however well intentioned to tutor the DM in how to improve his game via your metrics. Yes, he might suffer from all the social ills that you have described and be very hard to approach successfully, but in the end it is not a good idea to guide other players of which the DM is included without their express consent. You might want with all your heart to make every DM as good as you, but you just can't do it. If the DM opens up with a "How it that go? Any Suggestions?" give him a short, sweet one to two suggestions for improvement and leave it at that. If he never asks, he is within his rights to do so. True he might remain a stunted DM, but that is his right.
Ah, a fellow Improv DM...the way of the Lazy DM, a warrior most a home in the center of the whirlwind. Honestly, no one DMs quite the same. I, for one, pretty much abstain from using random tables, rarely if ever use a "voice" for an NPC, and find my way through the campaign around 70% or so by listening to what the players are wanting/speculating about what is happening. But, other DMs need a structure. If they didn't there wouldn't be so many adventure modules produced. When I read ToA as a prospective DM, I see a RAILROAD with BLINKING Neon Rails. (If you disagree look it over and see how many of the "traps" and "puzzles" have precisely one way of escape.)
If this particular DM is allowed to run his games, he might develop skills and confidence in his abilities. He might even ask you "How can I improve?" But, if he never, ever does that is okay too. All you can do, all any of your group can do is show up for a while, give the guy a chance, and if he can't succeed in pulling together a campaign you and your group fall in love with then the group can say, "Hey, thanks for running the game. Can we set up a time to wrap up the game in the next one or two sessions? Bob has an amazing idea about a prehistoric D&D game with Bullywugs, Saughnin and Lizardfolk we are dying to try."
So want to have Bob dm for me, that sounds like a awesome game!
Honestly I don't think dming is a skill you can teach while playing. Only so many people have the ability to run a game off the cuff, one of my best friends is a amazing storyteller. He can do npcs to such a degree you can close your eyes and listen to him talk to himself in the different characters and feel you are realy sitting in the tavern with them. His stories are rich and inspiring, and a pleasure to play in. But the quickest way to kill his game is to go all sandbox on him. He had very little ability to free lance a game.
That said what we did was have the equavalint of multiple session 0s between games. We would talk to him in detail about our characters wants and desires, and he would tailor his games to our needs. We didn't game once a week but once a month maybe even two months apart to give him time, but they are some of the best games I ever played in.
Maybe try that, talk to your dm about your characters wants and see if maybe the story can start going in a new more satisfying direction. Then if all else fails get Bob, totaly want to play in his game.
First, I love the passenger analogy! it's probably one of the most accurate anecdotes I've read in a long time, and represents marriage/relationships so well lol. In regards to the question posed "are you a bad passenger", I was. My wife learned to DM a little while back and took on Curse of Strahd as her second adventure, I was horrible as a DM turned Player. Without going into too many details I will admit to fostering a poor attitude from her players due to my actions. I tried to help mid game with rulings rather than let her do her thing and then talking about it after the session, or if/when she asked. I would challenge her rulings at the table, rather than adhering to "you're the DM it's your call". As well as a few other things which were making the DM chair a chore rather than a delight, which she made sure I knew in no uncertain terms.
While I understand that, in the case of Star Wars, Dragonlance, or any predefined mythos, there are certain "invisible walls", there are still choices and actions you can take as a player which could change the course of the story being told. Sure I may not be able to assassinate the Emperor, but I should be able to say "I will find another way" to the cantina bounty hunter in regards to capturing some Jawa and not have my DM, not NPC, look at me and say "You get these two options or you will never succeed in your goal". Yea we signed up for a game that was based on this medium, we did not understand that it was this restricted. When I say this DM is running a game that is close to a re-enactment, I mean I could pop the game disc in my console and have almost the exact same experience.
As to the last half of your post, I may have misrepresented myself with the questions I posed. I am not trying to turn him into me, I'm no quite that narcissistic. My intent is to give him more tools to work with, but as the old saying goes "The road to hell is paved in good intentions". I will have to do my best to help the players relax and try to enjoy the game, as you pointed out there is a chance he may look to improve on his own. I'll have to chalk this one up to having introduced them to the game under my style and then having a new DM who is very much the opposite of my style.
@Veth13:
I am the "Bob" of our group, being the most experienced with the game and as a DM. The difference being I'm an improv DM vs a structured DM, so there's that. I will talk with my group and see if we can try to open up some dialogue with the DM to see if we can all get to understand our stances better. I don't want to make the DM feel like we want to take the game in a different direction, but I do hope we can all get something from talks like you've mentioned.
While it isn't the position of a Player to "correct" a DM, that we all have our own styles, that - as Players - we have to accept someone else's DM'ing style, and this is a new DM who is still finding their sea-legs, this isn't a case of "he's just not DM'ing the way you would".
This DM objectively has issues, by the only metric that matters: players ( plural ) are unhappy with the way the game is being run.
But it's a tricky situation. You don't want to judge the DM on the basis of how you would DM, and you don't want to try and impose your DM style on this person.
It sounds like the DM is feeling overwhelmed ( lots of us do, at first ), and so one way to control the situation is to restrict choice. This leads to rigid choice points in the story ( 2 choices only ) and "no you can't do that" rulings. It also is reflected in their story choice. By replicating an existing story, they don't need to come up with a story-line, and when you try and step off of it, you threaten them by throwing them into unprepared territory.
I haven't been in this kind of situation myself - but I would think you need to sneak up on the problem, as a Player, and lead the DM into a more relaxed game - which means building up their skills, and confidence as a DM ( which really sounds to be the core issue ), and their improv muscles.
I believe that experienced, understanding, and well meaning players can absolutely train up a newbie DM - while allowing everyone to save face.
So, some ideas off the top of my head:
Enthusiastically embrace the story, and enjoy it if you can. If the Players can have fun with it, and do, then the DM will feel better about the way the game is flowing. This allows them to relax and be more fluid ( perhaps ) in the future. Maybe a "conspiracy of fun" should be hatched by the players.
Don't make suggestions, ask leading questions - ask, "hey, what would happen if .... ", "hey, would it be possible for us to ....". This introduces ideas to the DM, without the panic of "Oh God, they're doing something I didn't plan for!". By easing into ideas and possibilities it allows them to plan for them and reduces the panic.
Engage with the NPCs, treat them as real people, be appreciative that they're part of the story. Accept that the DM might not play them well yet, but still treat them as a fun part of the game.
Note and engage with the world lore. DMs love it when you notice the details they put into the world. Remember, this is about propping up your DM until they find their own feet.
Telegraph possibilities for alternate actions way in advance of possibly taking them. Your actions shouldn't be a surprise to the DM ( yet ): Hey ... could we do this .... OK, we're thinking of doing this .... hey look, we're making preparations to do this now .... OK, now can we try and do this? Give the DM lots of time to adjust, and plan for, ideas outside of the railroad.
Speculate loudly about what could be going on where the DM can hear you. You might not be right, but you can seed your DM with ideas ( who among us has not used Player comments and theories to springboard our own story ideas ).
I think that if you - as players - can help your DM develop their skill and comfort level, they'll get up to speed, and you guys can relax into being engaged with the gaming world as your characters, as the DM picks up the slack with more comfort and flexibility.
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I want to start this off by saying: I am not writing this to complain, I am writing this for constructive ideas and approaches.
I'm playing in a game that could be rather fantastic if the DM wasn't making a few mistakes that seem to be souring it for the group. I've spoken with all of the other players and we're in agreement that it would be great if we could help the current DM change some of the habits that they have. The game is very much on rails, even when the DM thinks they're trying to allow player agency, there is a clear cut "two choices" approach to the story so far. The DM is the type to take criticism as a personal attack, I've tried to use my experience as a tool to give different views on how situations could be handled and it is very apparent that the message was received poorly. There is also a problem with being able to handle things that are outlier choices, tending to frustrate and stump the DM to where it comes back as a flat "no you can't do that" type response. Lastly, the DM has a self-image issue so most confrontations can devolve into a self-depreciating or combatitive scenario often. My goal is to figure out ways, as a fellow DM, I can work with him to help improve their trade and help the game grow and evolve into what the DM wants and what we want as players.
Is there a way that any of you have used in game actions, as a player, to promote player agency when on rails?
-We are all well aware that the game is based on, to the point of almost being a re-enactment, a story line from a medium he is very fond of. This was understood from the onset, so it's not a surprise to us, but it is rather daunting to be following a script.
Have any of you dealt with a DM who's been difficult to tutor, and what approaches have you used successfully?
-I don't want to alienate the DM, and I don't want them to quit, and I don't want them to feel attacked, but I do want to open up discussions about improving/changing the approach they've taken.
How have you promoted your style of DMing to another DM when your approaches are significantly different?
-I'm very much an improv DM, I fly by the seat of my pants for 90% of my sessions. It seems this DM has everything scripted with little wiggle room. I'd like to help impress the need for some flexibility for the random to influence what's going on in the game.
I'll most likely have more questions, as I'd like to improve on myself as a DM Tutor, thank you all in advance for your input.
Hiya DM,
I am a horrible passenger. When I was first married, I would sit on the edge of my seat mashing an invisible brake pedal, or politely suggesting that more or less space between us and the cars around us would be better, I even think I asked my wife if her mirrors were correctly adjusted. After a few months of side eye and exasperation it was eventually resolved that I would do the driving from now on. 26 years of happy marriage later, I still do all of the driving...period. 15 hour trip to Florida from Maryland and it is my butt that is in that seat because there is no way in God's green Earth that she is going to go through all that again. She is happy now to just sit and read or play a game on her iPad, whilst I express my manly pride in getting her and the kids safely to our destination.
There is a point here: Are you a horrible passenger? Has your time in the DM's chair made you acutely aware of all the little things that you would do differently than the current DM? Are you aware that DMing is a hobby and not a Trade (unless of course you do it for compensation)?
Let us assume that none of the above is true and that the DM i question is "at fault"...for what ever that means.
One of the things you mentioned is that the DM clearly indicated that he would be running a game based on a set scenario. It is like in Star Wars RPGs where no matter what the Players decide to do their PCs will never be able to end the threat of the Empire before the Emperor meets his destined end onboard the Death Star II at the hands of Vader. Or taking any meaningful action at all in the Dragonlance Mythos. We can go on and on, but the point is clear that this is what you and the group signed up for: a game with rails, if not high guard rails. It is very passive aggressive to use in game stunts to reassert "agency" in such cases. Just take the hooks and follow them to complete the story instead of trying to find solutions that will lead you "off the rails".
Next, it is not your place, however well intentioned to tutor the DM in how to improve his game via your metrics. Yes, he might suffer from all the social ills that you have described and be very hard to approach successfully, but in the end it is not a good idea to guide other players of which the DM is included without their express consent. You might want with all your heart to make every DM as good as you, but you just can't do it. If the DM opens up with a "How it that go? Any Suggestions?" give him a short, sweet one to two suggestions for improvement and leave it at that. If he never asks, he is within his rights to do so. True he might remain a stunted DM, but that is his right.
Ah, a fellow Improv DM...the way of the Lazy DM, a warrior most a home in the center of the whirlwind. Honestly, no one DMs quite the same. I, for one, pretty much abstain from using random tables, rarely if ever use a "voice" for an NPC, and find my way through the campaign around 70% or so by listening to what the players are wanting/speculating about what is happening. But, other DMs need a structure. If they didn't there wouldn't be so many adventure modules produced. When I read ToA as a prospective DM, I see a RAILROAD with BLINKING Neon Rails. (If you disagree look it over and see how many of the "traps" and "puzzles" have precisely one way of escape.)
If this particular DM is allowed to run his games, he might develop skills and confidence in his abilities. He might even ask you "How can I improve?" But, if he never, ever does that is okay too. All you can do, all any of your group can do is show up for a while, give the guy a chance, and if he can't succeed in pulling together a campaign you and your group fall in love with then the group can say, "Hey, thanks for running the game. Can we set up a time to wrap up the game in the next one or two sessions? Bob has an amazing idea about a prehistoric D&D game with Bullywugs, Saughnin and Lizardfolk we are dying to try."
So want to have Bob dm for me, that sounds like a awesome game!
Honestly I don't think dming is a skill you can teach while playing. Only so many people have the ability to run a game off the cuff, one of my best friends is a amazing storyteller. He can do npcs to such a degree you can close your eyes and listen to him talk to himself in the different characters and feel you are realy sitting in the tavern with them. His stories are rich and inspiring, and a pleasure to play in. But the quickest way to kill his game is to go all sandbox on him. He had very little ability to free lance a game.
That said what we did was have the equavalint of multiple session 0s between games. We would talk to him in detail about our characters wants and desires, and he would tailor his games to our needs. We didn't game once a week but once a month maybe even two months apart to give him time, but they are some of the best games I ever played in.
Maybe try that, talk to your dm about your characters wants and see if maybe the story can start going in a new more satisfying direction. Then if all else fails get Bob, totaly want to play in his game.
Thank you both for your insights!
@Hawksmoor:
First, I love the passenger analogy! it's probably one of the most accurate anecdotes I've read in a long time, and represents marriage/relationships so well lol. In regards to the question posed "are you a bad passenger", I was. My wife learned to DM a little while back and took on Curse of Strahd as her second adventure, I was horrible as a DM turned Player. Without going into too many details I will admit to fostering a poor attitude from her players due to my actions. I tried to help mid game with rulings rather than let her do her thing and then talking about it after the session, or if/when she asked. I would challenge her rulings at the table, rather than adhering to "you're the DM it's your call". As well as a few other things which were making the DM chair a chore rather than a delight, which she made sure I knew in no uncertain terms.
While I understand that, in the case of Star Wars, Dragonlance, or any predefined mythos, there are certain "invisible walls", there are still choices and actions you can take as a player which could change the course of the story being told. Sure I may not be able to assassinate the Emperor, but I should be able to say "I will find another way" to the cantina bounty hunter in regards to capturing some Jawa and not have my DM, not NPC, look at me and say "You get these two options or you will never succeed in your goal". Yea we signed up for a game that was based on this medium, we did not understand that it was this restricted. When I say this DM is running a game that is close to a re-enactment, I mean I could pop the game disc in my console and have almost the exact same experience.
As to the last half of your post, I may have misrepresented myself with the questions I posed. I am not trying to turn him into me, I'm no quite that narcissistic. My intent is to give him more tools to work with, but as the old saying goes "The road to hell is paved in good intentions". I will have to do my best to help the players relax and try to enjoy the game, as you pointed out there is a chance he may look to improve on his own. I'll have to chalk this one up to having introduced them to the game under my style and then having a new DM who is very much the opposite of my style.
@Veth13:
I am the "Bob" of our group, being the most experienced with the game and as a DM. The difference being I'm an improv DM vs a structured DM, so there's that. I will talk with my group and see if we can try to open up some dialogue with the DM to see if we can all get to understand our stances better. I don't want to make the DM feel like we want to take the game in a different direction, but I do hope we can all get something from talks like you've mentioned.
A bit of dissenting view here.
While it isn't the position of a Player to "correct" a DM, that we all have our own styles, that - as Players - we have to accept someone else's DM'ing style, and this is a new DM who is still finding their sea-legs, this isn't a case of "he's just not DM'ing the way you would".
This DM objectively has issues, by the only metric that matters: players ( plural ) are unhappy with the way the game is being run.
But it's a tricky situation. You don't want to judge the DM on the basis of how you would DM, and you don't want to try and impose your DM style on this person.
It sounds like the DM is feeling overwhelmed ( lots of us do, at first ), and so one way to control the situation is to restrict choice. This leads to rigid choice points in the story ( 2 choices only ) and "no you can't do that" rulings. It also is reflected in their story choice. By replicating an existing story, they don't need to come up with a story-line, and when you try and step off of it, you threaten them by throwing them into unprepared territory.
I haven't been in this kind of situation myself - but I would think you need to sneak up on the problem, as a Player, and lead the DM into a more relaxed game - which means building up their skills, and confidence as a DM ( which really sounds to be the core issue ), and their improv muscles.
I believe that experienced, understanding, and well meaning players can absolutely train up a newbie DM - while allowing everyone to save face.
So, some ideas off the top of my head:
I think that if you - as players - can help your DM develop their skill and comfort level, they'll get up to speed, and you guys can relax into being engaged with the gaming world as your characters, as the DM picks up the slack with more comfort and flexibility.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.