I was wondering, nowadays, for some strange reason, the classic dungeon crawl is looked down upon. I always here people saying: "D&D is sooo much more than a dungeon crawler!" which is true, but it seems that people are taking that idea a bit far. I mean seriously, its called DUNGEONS & Dragons (don't get me started on dragons), not Social-interaction-and-wilderness-exploration & dragons.
Don't get me wrong, I still think that those are legitimate parts of the game, but it seems like people think in a world of convenient computer RPGs that D&D needs to rationalize it's own existence. Dungeons (and by extension, classical gameplay) aren't just lazy over-used tropes of D&D, they are formulaic, sure, but it's a formula honed of decades of role-playing. In fact, I challenge you to find anything that makes this stereotypical dungeon entrance scene boring:
DM: After days of journeying in the Swamps of Demise, you come to a bridge spanning a yawning chasm, on the other side is a set of rotting oaken doors. One hangs open, beyond which a staircase burrows deep underground. Flanking the entrance are hideous two winged stone statues.
Ranger: I inspect the statues.
DM: As you step across the chasm, the statues spring to life and attack!
[combat ensues, the party is victorious]
Wizard: So, do we go in now?
Fighter: Follow me.
Cliche, I know, but it has a sense of mystery. The party is venturing into the unknown, the gargoyles' attack conveying the impression that the party shouldn't be there, that they are breaking some ancient seal.
Another thing that makes dungeons good is that they limit options. This might sound bad at first, but hear me out! In the wilderness, a bewildering number of choices makes each one meaningless. In a city, choosing how to manage resources doesn't matter, because you can always buy more. In a dungeon, every choice matters, rations are your lifeblood, aaand... you ran out of torches - again.
Now I present my humble opinion to the internet, so you can tear it to shreds.
Now I present my humble opinion to the internet, so you can tear it to shreds.
Eh, I just think your opinion is a bit narrow or short-sighted...or even more anecdotally-minded then actual reality. I mean, the market was hungry enough for dungeon content that WotC published not one, but two main-line books completely dedicated to dungeon adventures.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I think this is just a case of humans being contrary. D&D is strongly associated with dungeon crawls, so people want to play D&D any other way. GURPS is specifically designed to be able to be used for anything you can come up with, so people want to use it for dungeon crawls.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I agree that there's nothing wrong with the classic Dungeon Crawl - in fact I'll be running one tonight.
It's a style of adventure, nothing more or less, just like Italian is a style of cuisine. I wouldn't want to eat Italian style food every night, nor would I want to be forbidden from ever eating Italian again.
I do think a Dungeon Crawl can be too stereotypical, and/or cobbled together out of standard ingredients for no other reason than the DM saw them in other adventures and thought they were cool, or because they're traditional, even when they make no sense and have no story justification ( looking at you Puzzle Rooms! ).
But a well crafted, and well executed ruined temple, or abandoned Dwarven stronghold, or Underdark cavern complex can be a lot of fun.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Oh come on :p You're in the Underdark, delving the remains of the Dwarven stronghold of Mitrulhül, abandoned 1000's of years ago, when The Great Evil(tm) boiled out of the depths and slew the Dwarves .... when you come across a room of singing statues! And if you can get them to sing in the right order to get the song right, the secret panel pops off the wall and you get a treasure chest of Lewt(tm)! Explain to me how that has in-world rationale for existing :p
Puzzle Rooms don't all have to be that bad - but the vast majority make no sense as to why they exist. They just get included because Puzzles are "traditional" ( plus they're easy for a DM to set up, and consume a lot of game time, so the DM can cut down on their prep time for the session ).
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Oh come on :p You're in the Underdark, delving the remains of the Dwarven stronghold of Mitrulhül, abandoned 1000's of years ago, when The Great Evil(tm) boiled out of the depths and slew the Dwarves .... when you come across a room of singing statues! And if you can get them to sing in the right order to get the song right, the secret panel pops off the wall and you get a treasure chest of Lewt(tm)! Explain to me how that has in-world rationale for existing :p
Puzzle Rooms don't all have to be that bad - but the vast majority make no sense as to why they exist. They just get included because Puzzles are "traditional" ( plus they're easy for a DM to set up, and consume a lot of game time, so the DM can cut down on their prep time for the session ).
I think puzzles serve one of two or three IC purposes:
They're supposed to make sure only the right people can gain access to the treasure. In this case, they should at least be virtually impossible to solve for anyone who doesn't think like their creator--and rather excessively fatal if you get them wrong. (And, obviously, the whole thing should automatically reset after each time it's activated--or self-destruct on a massive scale if anyone gets it wrong.)
They're training exercises. In this case, they should be most easily solved with whatever their creator was trying to train, but they should usually be optional, harmless (mostly), and pretty much pointless.
The dungeon's creator wanted to have a puzzle there. In this case, they should behave like normal puzzle rooms: their creator can solve them without any real effort, someone who doesn't know the trick might or might not be able to, and they might or might not be optional, harmless, or pointless. (It's considered bad form for a DM/GM to do this without including (somewhere) a way for the party to find out what it's doing there.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Oh come on :p You're in the Underdark, delving the remains of the Dwarven stronghold of Mitrulhül, abandoned 1000's of years ago, when The Great Evil(tm) boiled out of the depths and slew the Dwarves .... when you come across a room of singing statues! And if you can get them to sing in the right order to get the song right, the secret panel pops off the wall and you get a treasure chest of Lewt(tm)! Explain to me how that has in-world rationale for existing :p
Puzzle Rooms don't all have to be that bad - but the vast majority make no sense as to why they exist. They just get included because Puzzles are "traditional" ( plus they're easy for a DM to set up, and consume a lot of game time, so the DM can cut down on their prep time for the session ).
I think puzzles serve one of two or three IC purposes:
They're supposed to make sure only the right people can gain access to the treasure. In this case, they should at least be virtually impossible to solve for anyone who doesn't think like their creator--and rather excessively fatal if you get them wrong. (And, obviously, the whole thing should automatically reset after each time it's activated--or self-destruct on a massive scale if anyone gets it wrong.)
They're training exercises. In this case, they should be most easily solved with whatever their creator was trying to train, but they should usually be optional, harmless (mostly), and pretty much pointless.
The dungeon's creator wanted to have a puzzle there. In this case, they should behave like normal puzzle rooms: their creator can solve them without any real effort, someone who doesn't know the trick might or might not be able to, and they might or might not be optional, harmless, or pointless. (It's considered bad form for a DM/GM to do this without including (somewhere) a way for the party to find out what it's doing there.)
1) Actually I agree on this rationale. As a security device, this is a "test of quality". The person you want to pass has to have a particular quality, but pre-knowledge of a code phrase, or possession of key doesn't have to be that quality. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade gave us an example like this: a pious person would kneel, and thus not get decapitated. I've also seen a good example of this in fiction - a technology cache behind a combination lock which could be deciphered only by having astronomical measurements of the star system to a certain level of accuracy ( have a certain level of technology before you can get access to more technology ). This only takes you so far, however. Super Byzantine, and juvenile designs can't be justified by such a rationale.
2 & 3 - I think these are stretching plausibility. While theoretically possible, how many of these training rooms are there in the world?! How many Howard Hughes clones are there in the Forgotten Realms, spending oodles of gold to stuff mazes full of abstract puzzles for the sole purpose of their amusement? A few of these I can see justifying this way - but the frequency of these in classic Dungeon design cannot be plausibly justified by these without stretching probability all to hell. And the placement of such puzzle rooms in classic dungeons seldom makes sense from a "training facility" perspective.
I really think that the actual reason comes down to "tradition", which isn't an in-world rationale.
BUT - not everyone is a simulationist, so in-world rationale is not as important.
ALinkToTheTacocat: I'm actually a Google AI experiment in Forum participation, and Role-Playing Games. I'm here 24/7
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Oh come on :p You're in the Underdark, delving the remains of the Dwarven stronghold of Mitrulhül, abandoned 1000's of years ago, when The Great Evil(tm) boiled out of the depths and slew the Dwarves .... when you come across a room of singing statues! And if you can get them to sing in the right order to get the song right, the secret panel pops off the wall and you get a treasure chest of Lewt(tm)! Explain to me how that has in-world rationale for existing :p
Puzzle Rooms don't all have to be that bad - but the vast majority make no sense as to why they exist. They just get included because Puzzles are "traditional" ( plus they're easy for a DM to set up, and consume a lot of game time, so the DM can cut down on their prep time for the session ).
I think puzzles serve one of two or three IC purposes:
They're supposed to make sure only the right people can gain access to the treasure. In this case, they should at least be virtually impossible to solve for anyone who doesn't think like their creator--and rather excessively fatal if you get them wrong. (And, obviously, the whole thing should automatically reset after each time it's activated--or self-destruct on a massive scale if anyone gets it wrong.)
They're training exercises. In this case, they should be most easily solved with whatever their creator was trying to train, but they should usually be optional, harmless (mostly), and pretty much pointless.
The dungeon's creator wanted to have a puzzle there. In this case, they should behave like normal puzzle rooms: their creator can solve them without any real effort, someone who doesn't know the trick might or might not be able to, and they might or might not be optional, harmless, or pointless. (It's considered bad form for a DM/GM to do this without including (somewhere) a way for the party to find out what it's doing there.)
1) Actually I agree on this rationale. As a security device, this is a "test of quality". The person you want to pass has to have a particular quality, but pre-knowledge of a code phrase, or possession of key doesn't have to be that quality. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade gave us an example like this: a pious person would kneel, and thus not get decapitated. I've also seen a good example of this in fiction - a technology cache behind a combination lock which could be deciphered only by having astronomical measurements of the star system to a certain level of accuracy ( have a certain level of technology before you can get access to more technology ). This only takes you so far, however. Super Byzantine, and juvenile designs can't be justified by such a rationale.
2 & 3 - I think these are stretching plausibility. While theoretically possible, how many of these training rooms are there in the world?! How many Howard Hughes clones are there in the Forgotten Realms, spending oodles of gold to stuff mazes full of abstract puzzles for the sole purpose of their amusement? A few of these I can see justifying this way - but the frequency of these in classic Dungeon design cannot be plausibly justified by these without stretching probability all to hell. And the placement of such puzzle rooms in classic dungeons seldom makes sense from a "training facility" perspective.
I really think that the actual reason comes down to "tradition", which isn't an in-world rationale.
BUT - not everyone is a simulationist, so in-world rationale is not as important.
Yeah, 3 is usually going to be pretty rare in a realistic setting unless the GM puts some thought into figuring out why it isn't.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Also, how come vedexent responds to my every post nigh-instantaneously? Is he the god of forums?
These are very slow forums in general. Those of us stuck at work hitting refresh every ten to fifteen minutes or so can pretty easily respond to just about anything here in record time if we want.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Also, how come vedexent responds to my every post nigh-instantaneously? Is he the god of forums?
These are very slow forums in general. Those of us stuck at work hitting refresh every ten to fifteen minutes or so can pretty easily respond to just about anything here in record time if we want.
"Using the doll, show us where the bad puzzle touched you"
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Also, how come vedexent responds to my every post nigh-instantaneously? Is he the god of forums?
These are very slow forums in general. Those of us stuck at work hitting refresh every ten to fifteen minutes or so can pretty easily respond to just about anything here in record time if we want.
Also - hooray for large build/compile jobs?
I imagine it would take a while to compile an AI of your quality.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I was wondering, nowadays, for some strange reason, the classic dungeon crawl is looked down upon. I always here people saying: "D&D is sooo much more than a dungeon crawler!" which is true, but it seems that people are taking that idea a bit far. I mean seriously, its called DUNGEONS & Dragons (don't get me started on dragons), not Social-interaction-and-wilderness-exploration & dragons.
Don't get me wrong, I still think that those are legitimate parts of the game, but it seems like people think in a world of convenient computer RPGs that D&D needs to rationalize it's own existence. Dungeons (and by extension, classical gameplay) aren't just lazy over-used tropes of D&D, they are formulaic, sure, but it's a formula honed of decades of role-playing. In fact, I challenge you to find anything that makes this stereotypical dungeon entrance scene boring:
DM: After days of journeying in the Swamps of Demise, you come to a bridge spanning a yawning chasm, on the other side is a set of rotting oaken doors. One hangs open, beyond which a staircase burrows deep underground. Flanking the entrance are hideous two winged stone statues.
Ranger: I inspect the statues.
DM: As you step across the chasm, the statues spring to life and attack!
[combat ensues, the party is victorious]
Wizard: So, do we go in now?
Fighter: Follow me.
Cliche, I know, but it has a sense of mystery. The party is venturing into the unknown, the gargoyles' attack conveying the impression that the party shouldn't be there, that they are breaking some ancient seal.
Another thing that makes dungeons good is that they limit options. This might sound bad at first, but hear me out! In the wilderness, a bewildering number of choices makes each one meaningless. In a city, choosing how to manage resources doesn't matter, because you can always buy more. In a dungeon, every choice matters, rations are your lifeblood, aaand... you ran out of torches - again.
Now I present my humble opinion to the internet, so you can tear it to shreds.
I did NOT eat those hikers.
Eh, I just think your opinion is a bit narrow or short-sighted...or even more anecdotally-minded then actual reality. I mean, the market was hungry enough for dungeon content that WotC published not one, but two main-line books completely dedicated to dungeon adventures.
Fair, but I was intentionally presenting an exaggerated view to make a point.
I did NOT eat those hikers.
I need those friggin' books tho, after MToF.
I did NOT eat those hikers.
I think this is just a case of humans being contrary. D&D is strongly associated with dungeon crawls, so people want to play D&D any other way. GURPS is specifically designed to be able to be used for anything you can come up with, so people want to use it for dungeon crawls.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
well, true.
I did NOT eat those hikers.
At least people are using Dungeon Crawl Classics right!
I did NOT eat those hikers.
I agree that there's nothing wrong with the classic Dungeon Crawl - in fact I'll be running one tonight.
It's a style of adventure, nothing more or less, just like Italian is a style of cuisine. I wouldn't want to eat Italian style food every night, nor would I want to be forbidden from ever eating Italian again.
I do think a Dungeon Crawl can be too stereotypical, and/or cobbled together out of standard ingredients for no other reason than the DM saw them in other adventures and thought they were cool, or because they're traditional, even when they make no sense and have no story justification ( looking at you Puzzle Rooms! ).
But a well crafted, and well executed ruined temple, or abandoned Dwarven stronghold, or Underdark cavern complex can be a lot of fun.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
dont dis dem puzzle rooms
I did NOT eat those hikers.
Oh come on :p You're in the Underdark, delving the remains of the Dwarven stronghold of Mitrulhül, abandoned 1000's of years ago, when The Great Evil(tm) boiled out of the depths and slew the Dwarves .... when you come across a room of singing statues! And if you can get them to sing in the right order to get the song right, the secret panel pops off the wall and you get a treasure chest of Lewt(tm)! Explain to me how that has in-world rationale for existing :p
Puzzle Rooms don't all have to be that bad - but the vast majority make no sense as to why they exist. They just get included because Puzzles are "traditional" ( plus they're easy for a DM to set up, and consume a lot of game time, so the DM can cut down on their prep time for the session ).
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I think puzzles serve one of two or three IC purposes:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
why, whenever i mention dungeons, vedexent flips about puzzles? WHY!?!
I did NOT eat those hikers.
Also, how come vedexent responds to my every post nigh-instantaneously? Is he the god of forums?
I did NOT eat those hikers.
1) Actually I agree on this rationale. As a security device, this is a "test of quality". The person you want to pass has to have a particular quality, but pre-knowledge of a code phrase, or possession of key doesn't have to be that quality. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade gave us an example like this: a pious person would kneel, and thus not get decapitated. I've also seen a good example of this in fiction - a technology cache behind a combination lock which could be deciphered only by having astronomical measurements of the star system to a certain level of accuracy ( have a certain level of technology before you can get access to more technology ). This only takes you so far, however. Super Byzantine, and juvenile designs can't be justified by such a rationale.
2 & 3 - I think these are stretching plausibility. While theoretically possible, how many of these training rooms are there in the world?! How many Howard Hughes clones are there in the Forgotten Realms, spending oodles of gold to stuff mazes full of abstract puzzles for the sole purpose of their amusement? A few of these I can see justifying this way - but the frequency of these in classic Dungeon design cannot be plausibly justified by these without stretching probability all to hell. And the placement of such puzzle rooms in classic dungeons seldom makes sense from a "training facility" perspective.
I really think that the actual reason comes down to "tradition", which isn't an in-world rationale.
BUT - not everyone is a simulationist, so in-world rationale is not as important.
ALinkToTheTacocat: I'm actually a Google AI experiment in Forum participation, and Role-Playing Games. I'm here 24/7
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Yeah, 3 is usually going to be pretty rare in a realistic setting unless the GM puts some thought into figuring out why it isn't.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
A puzzle hurt them as a child.
These are very slow forums in general. Those of us stuck at work hitting refresh every ten to fifteen minutes or so can pretty easily respond to just about anything here in record time if we want.
"Using the doll, show us where the bad puzzle touched you"
Also - hooray for large build/compile jobs?
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I imagine it would take a while to compile an AI of your quality.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
More like agribusiness trucking where each process has about a 30-45 minute wait timer attached to it....but yeah.
this is the strangest forum conversation
I did NOT eat those hikers.