so my party (6 players [3 lvl 5, 2 lvl 4, 1 lvl 3] and 1 NPC [Paladin3/Ranger3] who they picked up) is about to escape from a short Underdark visit. They will have the option to go a "safe" route through a duergar mine following a wyvern canyon, which will take longer and will leave them with low treasure or they can take their chance through a portal guarded by a demon. For the "mini boss encounter" in the gate room I calculated the XP for a hard to near deadly encounter. I calculated a deadly XP cutoff of ~ 6000 XP. With a large party AND a single encounter, this would go heavy in favor of the players, so I added the ability to summon small minions to balance this (~50-100 XP / round of minions).
The reward of this encounter would be a quick exit out of the Underdark and they would be rewarded with one of his blades (rare magic greatsword, requires STR18 to carry, 2D6+1D6 damage with a similar rule as the demon uses, but they would only get a DC10 STR Saving Throw that would be required from targets except for crits, which would require the real DC15 STR Saving Throw to not get knocked prone).
However, this is still a CR9 monster that could possibly deal 23*3 damage per round (average of 30 damage + a non-damaging spell). Is my encounter too deadly for the party?
As a fail-safe, I would leave them with the option to run for the portal to prevent a TPK. The portal itself is a puzzle (3 crystals that have to be arranged in 3 axes that give coordinates, I have a handout prepared), which, if they can solve it, would get them to any location on any plane they want. If they however run for it, not thinking about the puzzle, they will end in a random plane (except the plane of fire, maybe).
Balancing is always tricky. Is your party starting with full health/spells/abilities?
If you have an approximation for how much damage your party does per round vs the demon's that may give you a bit more insight as it will let you know how long the demon will be around. The longer this fight goes the worse it is for the party. As is this is a high health boss with a lair action
I would keep it as is, perhaps tune the health down a bit depending on your party's damage, but then leave some openings if the party is creative with something to do extra damage, or to restrict one/two of the demon's attacks. (Maybe there are some anti-summoning items nearby, etc). There's a strong chance your two lower level PCs could be down in the first 2 rounds as it is.
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"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
Balancing is always tricky. Is your party starting with full health/spells/abilities?
They will have 1-2 medium/hard encounters before that, but at least the possibility for a short rest, so they will have most spells and health up.
If you have an approximation for how much damage your party does per round vs the demon's that may give you a bit more insight as it will let you know how long the demon will be around. The longer this fight goes the worse it is for the party. As is this is a high health boss with a lair action
Two players have access to a magical weapon and will deal full damage. There is a 5th level fighter with high AC and damage output. The NPC has healing spells prepared and acts mostly as a support. He will be run by a Ranger (because he was his master pre-campaign, they rescued him in the underdark) and the ranger himself has high damage output too (usually 2D8+1D6+3 damage / round). There is a level 5 rogue/assassin as well with high damage output, maybe I will grant him access to a magical dagger before the battle, so he can deal full damage as well (a drow dagger that will lose the magical properties in sunlight, so the number of magical items does not stack that much). Magical spells that deal damage will also affect him fully, so the other players have a good chance for a good damage output.
The level 3 player has to be very careful though, because he has literally 13 hp. Most of the other players have 40 hp (I don't think they have to worry about instant death) and I would not jump on the 3rd level player with the beast and I think he would be well protected by his teammates.
but then leave some openings if the party is creative with something to do extra damage, or to restrict one/two of the demon's attacks
I love the idea that the party can interact with the environment to shut down the portal! There should be a hint that they can interact with the room, but it shouldn't be easy to fulfill, otherwise I could just remove the ability. Do you have an idea how to implement that? Maybe they can cast a spell on the portal to shut it down? Or what option would you give the players to restrict the lair action? How could an anti-summoning item look like? Should they earn it before the battle or in-battle?
What information would you give the players about the demon, so they could come up with a strategy to fight it?
It sounds like you are considering a lot of options and have a good sense of the balance you want :)
A couple of ideas that come to mind are:
How long has the demon been there, perhaps there is a way to "free it" and it can then leave this plane (or even attack the party, since it is a demon)
If it does attack after the party "freed" it, perhaps it's actually less powerful
In the room that it is in, there could be a pair of magical beams/lines that bind it, while they bind it to the gateway, the side effect is the demon has even more of a presence on this plane. Breaking/Interrupting the beams could then reduce the demon's power.
On the flip side, maybe these beams are not on all the time, and the demon slowly activates them during the fight, some of the party could then race to stop him. Perhaps its something as simple as aligning a stone in a pedestal
That also turns the combat encounter into a bit of an exploration encounter where the party then has more choices.
Hope some of the above helped!
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"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
I would if I were you tune down the monster a lot. First I would put the hit points down to 120 second I would make the multiattack only 2 great sword attacks third I would take away many of the resistances and lastly avoid hitting the level 3.
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The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
So, I reduced the HP and the damage output by reducing the multi-attack to two attacks. Moreover, I added Saving Throws on the Lair effects to reduce their impact. This makes the encounter more CR8 than 9. But two players cancelled the session tomorrow, the encounter still will be very difficult for them. They don't have to win it, however, as they can flee throw the gate/portal. Then again, they even may not choose to go for this encounter at all, I have three ways out of the underdark prepared. They can take a longer route through a Duergar City, followed by a Wyvern Canyon or they can choose to go for a mad wizard drow (CR7) with his specter army and his portal.
This really depends on the level of the players that cancelled if it were the level 5's I would suggest cancelling the boss and just having the drow wizard but if it were the level 3's it most likely won't make a change. Or you could always just run the pc's your self.
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The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
Give them an escape route if things get too hairy, and toss in an environmental factor that can speed his downfall. You can have the party aware of this from the get go, or you can introduce it to them if the going seems to be going a little too tough.
For example, the caverns are collapsing! During the fight, it becomes obvious that the PCs arent likely to win. Have them make a perception roll mid combat (or whatever the equivalent of your edition is) to spot that stalagtites in the cieling aboe are loosening. After this, they could attempt to manouvre the boss under the stalagtites as they fall to kill him. If this fails, you could indicate their ability to turn and flee as the cieling collapses, preventing the boss from pursuing them.
Might be cheap but having a mob run to another spot to regroup itself gives players a chance to use potions, heal and go after it if they want. Stuff like that's been done in plenty of video games. The new lair it's at could change as well with visibility or difficult terrain. Something that benefits the mob but doesn't make it look like your making the encounter feel as cheap as it is.
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Hi there,
so my party (6 players [3 lvl 5, 2 lvl 4, 1 lvl 3] and 1 NPC [Paladin3/Ranger3] who they picked up) is about to escape from a short Underdark visit. They will have the option to go a "safe" route through a duergar mine following a wyvern canyon, which will take longer and will leave them with low treasure or they can take their chance through a portal guarded by a demon. For the "mini boss encounter" in the gate room I calculated the XP for a hard to near deadly encounter. I calculated a deadly XP cutoff of ~ 6000 XP. With a large party AND a single encounter, this would go heavy in favor of the players, so I added the ability to summon small minions to balance this (~50-100 XP / round of minions).
The reward of this encounter would be a quick exit out of the Underdark and they would be rewarded with one of his blades (rare magic greatsword, requires STR18 to carry, 2D6+1D6 damage with a similar rule as the demon uses, but they would only get a DC10 STR Saving Throw that would be required from targets except for crits, which would require the real DC15 STR Saving Throw to not get knocked prone).
However, this is still a CR9 monster that could possibly deal 23*3 damage per round (average of 30 damage + a non-damaging spell). Is my encounter too deadly for the party?
As a fail-safe, I would leave them with the option to run for the portal to prevent a TPK. The portal itself is a puzzle (3 crystals that have to be arranged in 3 axes that give coordinates, I have a handout prepared), which, if they can solve it, would get them to any location on any plane they want. If they however run for it, not thinking about the puzzle, they will end in a random plane (except the plane of fire, maybe).
Best,
DMChicken
Balancing is always tricky. Is your party starting with full health/spells/abilities?
If you have an approximation for how much damage your party does per round vs the demon's that may give you a bit more insight as it will let you know how long the demon will be around. The longer this fight goes the worse it is for the party. As is this is a high health boss with a lair action
I would keep it as is, perhaps tune the health down a bit depending on your party's damage, but then leave some openings if the party is creative with something to do extra damage, or to restrict one/two of the demon's attacks. (Maybe there are some anti-summoning items nearby, etc). There's a strong chance your two lower level PCs could be down in the first 2 rounds as it is.
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
They will have 1-2 medium/hard encounters before that, but at least the possibility for a short rest, so they will have most spells and health up.
Two players have access to a magical weapon and will deal full damage. There is a 5th level fighter with high AC and damage output. The NPC has healing spells prepared and acts mostly as a support. He will be run by a Ranger (because he was his master pre-campaign, they rescued him in the underdark) and the ranger himself has high damage output too (usually 2D8+1D6+3 damage / round). There is a level 5 rogue/assassin as well with high damage output, maybe I will grant him access to a magical dagger before the battle, so he can deal full damage as well (a drow dagger that will lose the magical properties in sunlight, so the number of magical items does not stack that much). Magical spells that deal damage will also affect him fully, so the other players have a good chance for a good damage output.
The level 3 player has to be very careful though, because he has literally 13 hp. Most of the other players have 40 hp (I don't think they have to worry about instant death) and I would not jump on the 3rd level player with the beast and I think he would be well protected by his teammates.
I love the idea that the party can interact with the environment to shut down the portal! There should be a hint that they can interact with the room, but it shouldn't be easy to fulfill, otherwise I could just remove the ability. Do you have an idea how to implement that? Maybe they can cast a spell on the portal to shut it down? Or what option would you give the players to restrict the lair action? How could an anti-summoning item look like? Should they earn it before the battle or in-battle?
What information would you give the players about the demon, so they could come up with a strategy to fight it?
It sounds like you are considering a lot of options and have a good sense of the balance you want :)
A couple of ideas that come to mind are:
That also turns the combat encounter into a bit of an exploration encounter where the party then has more choices.
Hope some of the above helped!
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
I would if I were you tune down the monster a lot. First I would put the hit points down to 120 second I would make the multiattack only 2 great sword attacks third I would take away many of the resistances and lastly avoid hitting the level 3.
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
So, I reduced the HP and the damage output by reducing the multi-attack to two attacks. Moreover, I added Saving Throws on the Lair effects to reduce their impact. This makes the encounter more CR8 than 9. But two players cancelled the session tomorrow, the encounter still will be very difficult for them. They don't have to win it, however, as they can flee throw the gate/portal. Then again, they even may not choose to go for this encounter at all, I have three ways out of the underdark prepared. They can take a longer route through a Duergar City, followed by a Wyvern Canyon or they can choose to go for a mad wizard drow (CR7) with his specter army and his portal.
This really depends on the level of the players that cancelled if it were the level 5's I would suggest cancelling the boss and just having the drow wizard but if it were the level 3's it most likely won't make a change. Or you could always just run the pc's your self.
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
Give them an escape route if things get too hairy, and toss in an environmental factor that can speed his downfall. You can have the party aware of this from the get go, or you can introduce it to them if the going seems to be going a little too tough.
For example, the caverns are collapsing! During the fight, it becomes obvious that the PCs arent likely to win. Have them make a perception roll mid combat (or whatever the equivalent of your edition is) to spot that stalagtites in the cieling aboe are loosening. After this, they could attempt to manouvre the boss under the stalagtites as they fall to kill him. If this fails, you could indicate their ability to turn and flee as the cieling collapses, preventing the boss from pursuing them.
Might be cheap but having a mob run to another spot to regroup itself gives players a chance to use potions, heal and go after it if they want. Stuff like that's been done in plenty of video games. The new lair it's at could change as well with visibility or difficult terrain. Something that benefits the mob but doesn't make it look like your making the encounter feel as cheap as it is.