I'm running this for my play group and they are really having a good time with it. My only real concern though is the rate of progression. it suggests doing milestone leveling and basically as they reach another level of the dungeon they should level up. This seemed a good idea and a great way to keep the encounters balanced too.
My concern has become how long it takes to actually reach the next level of the dungeon. The levels are HUGE! We've played 5 sessions so far (session one was in the Yawning Portal just getting us down into the dungeon) and they've cleared maybe 1/3 of the first level. My players are having fun don't get me wrong but I'm starting to doubt the wisdom of having such a long stretch without leveling.
Anyone else who's run this have any perspective on this?
As long as they’re having fun what’s wrong with delayed leveling? I wouldn’t worry about it unless they bring it up. IMO D&D should be about fun and story with not a whole lotta pressure on leveling...
It's not a huge concern yet but I have had a couple of questions already about when they might expect it. I did explain up front that it was as they reached each level of the dungeon I just don't think any of them, myself included, realized just how massive the place is. I think it's more about getting fun new toys when you level than anything.
You may not want to play with full completion in mind. It's a big dungeon, likely not written with that in mind. Maybe if you were to give your players a reason to navigate a path from one level to the next in a more direct fashion, the pacing would work a little better.
Maybe you could come up with a semi time sensitive goal for them to reach on one of the lower levels. Maybe they have to reach an artifact before a rival adventuring team, or stop a ritual that will birth some dark god into Undermountain.
Even trying to cut a direct path through each level, that should still leave you with a ton of play time and a unique play experience (since you didn't see all there is to see).
On levels with more story to them, you could always have the forces there halt their access to the lower levels until, one way or another, that story is brought to some resolution.
That's a pretty good call Charles, I think I can do some subtle guiding of them to some key areas to help propagate their descent. There really is a ton of content packed into each level, it's pretty incredible.
I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. They pretty much made a direct line to the stairs in the first session. They even used stealth to bypass some of it. It seems like it might be pre-mature to level them up already. On the other hand, levels might get tough quickly if I don't stick to that... Anyone have experience to share with overleveling characters in this?
I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. They pretty much made a direct line to the stairs in the first session. They even used stealth to bypass some of it. It seems like it might be pre-mature to level them up already. On the other hand, levels might get tough quickly if I don't stick to that... Anyone have experience to share with overleveling characters in this?
Yeah that's more of a tough-y. On the one hand, you don't want to punish your players for their success, but on the other, sneaking through a whole level does kind of skip a lot of the actual gameplay.
I have a few follow-up questions: How were your players able to make a direct line to the stairs? Did they have access to a map or did they just guess the route really luckily?
If it was a lucky guess then I suppose you should just consider, how much fun did the group have stealthing through? Did they feel they'd achieved something? If so then I might still give them the level for it and simply take steps to avoid that happening every level. If they're a bit disappointed themselves, maybe give them a reason to go back up a level. Maybe a friendly NPC lost a family heirloom upstairs and will pay for them to go up and get it.
If they had access to the map, then in the future I think the solution should be as easy as 'don't give them full access to the map.' If you're playing online then you should be able to use some kind of "fog of war" function to hide unexplored areas from them, maybe giving them the occasional hint in the right direction if they have good survival/ perception rolls.
It might also, if this happens again, be a time where some good old fashioned dice-fudging might be in order. If they've snuck through almost all the encounters on this level, maybe for one or two of the last ones, an enemy perception roll is slightly higher and the baddies to catch wind of the heroes. Just make sure if you try this that you're just making one small tweak to the circumstances, as big tweaks can make the players' feel their choices don't matter. And they'll still have gotten the benefit of sneaking past all that other stuff, so it should be entirely plausible to them that their luck just naturally ran out.
Move the location of the stairs, plenty of those off shoots that go to unmapped areas you could use. I've also heavily modified what they encounter and created story arcs for them to force them into certain areas to experience things.
They were able to bypass most of the level through a combination of following the hints given in the module and a high perception checks. In room 2b the warning in the room says certain death this way and points south. So they went south. Chose double doors over single doors. Scoured the maze of little passages in the south east, before finding room 37 and the secret doors out of there. That lead to 39a where some smart scouting, the noise, of the goblins, and stealth checks kept them from being noticed.
But looking at the room now I see the blindsight that I missed in moment. That stealth didn't work. Fortunately, that was the end of the session where they decided to turn around and head for the stairs. So I'll retcon the successful scouting and start out next session with nothing lost. Even then, they'll have skipped half the level, but at least they'll deal with the big conclusion room. (one way or another! :-) )
Every time player reach a level of the dungeon they level up. Milestone through progression down. Players are forced to push through to find the stairs at the cost of missing exploration/ magic items and treasure. Move the stair cases around to manipulate the fiction. If players try to clear every thing on every level its going to take a long time to get through. They may get bored. My players tried to stealth there way down fast but the fiction and their own curiosity slowed them down and lead to some good group dynamics as they decided how best to proceed.
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I'm running this for my play group and they are really having a good time with it. My only real concern though is the rate of progression. it suggests doing milestone leveling and basically as they reach another level of the dungeon they should level up. This seemed a good idea and a great way to keep the encounters balanced too.
My concern has become how long it takes to actually reach the next level of the dungeon. The levels are HUGE! We've played 5 sessions so far (session one was in the Yawning Portal just getting us down into the dungeon) and they've cleared maybe 1/3 of the first level. My players are having fun don't get me wrong but I'm starting to doubt the wisdom of having such a long stretch without leveling.
Anyone else who's run this have any perspective on this?
As long as they’re having fun what’s wrong with delayed leveling? I wouldn’t worry about it unless they bring it up. IMO D&D should be about fun and story with not a whole lotta pressure on leveling...
It's not a huge concern yet but I have had a couple of questions already about when they might expect it. I did explain up front that it was as they reached each level of the dungeon I just don't think any of them, myself included, realized just how massive the place is. I think it's more about getting fun new toys when you level than anything.
You may not want to play with full completion in mind. It's a big dungeon, likely not written with that in mind. Maybe if you were to give your players a reason to navigate a path from one level to the next in a more direct fashion, the pacing would work a little better.
Maybe you could come up with a semi time sensitive goal for them to reach on one of the lower levels. Maybe they have to reach an artifact before a rival adventuring team, or stop a ritual that will birth some dark god into Undermountain.
Even trying to cut a direct path through each level, that should still leave you with a ton of play time and a unique play experience (since you didn't see all there is to see).
On levels with more story to them, you could always have the forces there halt their access to the lower levels until, one way or another, that story is brought to some resolution.
That's a pretty good call Charles, I think I can do some subtle guiding of them to some key areas to help propagate their descent. There really is a ton of content packed into each level, it's pretty incredible.
I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. They pretty much made a direct line to the stairs in the first session. They even used stealth to bypass some of it. It seems like it might be pre-mature to level them up already. On the other hand, levels might get tough quickly if I don't stick to that... Anyone have experience to share with overleveling characters in this?
Yeah that's more of a tough-y. On the one hand, you don't want to punish your players for their success, but on the other, sneaking through a whole level does kind of skip a lot of the actual gameplay.
I have a few follow-up questions: How were your players able to make a direct line to the stairs? Did they have access to a map or did they just guess the route really luckily?
If it was a lucky guess then I suppose you should just consider, how much fun did the group have stealthing through? Did they feel they'd achieved something? If so then I might still give them the level for it and simply take steps to avoid that happening every level. If they're a bit disappointed themselves, maybe give them a reason to go back up a level. Maybe a friendly NPC lost a family heirloom upstairs and will pay for them to go up and get it.
If they had access to the map, then in the future I think the solution should be as easy as 'don't give them full access to the map.' If you're playing online then you should be able to use some kind of "fog of war" function to hide unexplored areas from them, maybe giving them the occasional hint in the right direction if they have good survival/ perception rolls.
It might also, if this happens again, be a time where some good old fashioned dice-fudging might be in order. If they've snuck through almost all the encounters on this level, maybe for one or two of the last ones, an enemy perception roll is slightly higher and the baddies to catch wind of the heroes. Just make sure if you try this that you're just making one small tweak to the circumstances, as big tweaks can make the players' feel their choices don't matter. And they'll still have gotten the benefit of sneaking past all that other stuff, so it should be entirely plausible to them that their luck just naturally ran out.
Move the location of the stairs, plenty of those off shoots that go to unmapped areas you could use. I've also heavily modified what they encounter and created story arcs for them to force them into certain areas to experience things.
Reviewing this, I just caught my mistake.
They were able to bypass most of the level through a combination of following the hints given in the module and a high perception checks. In room 2b the warning in the room says certain death this way and points south. So they went south. Chose double doors over single doors. Scoured the maze of little passages in the south east, before finding room 37 and the secret doors out of there. That lead to 39a where some smart scouting, the noise, of the goblins, and stealth checks kept them from being noticed.
But looking at the room now I see the blindsight that I missed in moment. That stealth didn't work. Fortunately, that was the end of the session where they decided to turn around and head for the stairs. So I'll retcon the successful scouting and start out next session with nothing lost. Even then, they'll have skipped half the level, but at least they'll deal with the big conclusion room. (one way or another! :-) )
Thanks for the good suggestions regardless!
My method is that it should take about x sessions to get from level x to level x+1. The undermountain is a high level module. Supposed to take longer.
if they start getting outmatched massively by monsters than level them up otherwise just follow the milestones
Head Sorcerer and creator of the worshippers of Levi Rocks
Every time player reach a level of the dungeon they level up. Milestone through progression down. Players are forced to push through to find the stairs at the cost of missing exploration/ magic items and treasure. Move the stair cases around to manipulate the fiction. If players try to clear every thing on every level its going to take a long time to get through. They may get bored. My players tried to stealth there way down fast but the fiction and their own curiosity slowed them down and lead to some good group dynamics as they decided how best to proceed.