So, I started a D&D group with my students ( I'm a high school teacher) and this is my first attempt at DM'ing after many years of play so I went with Dragon of Icespire Peak, and it went well at first.
Now the players have killed off / phased out a couple of themselves in order to introduce new version of their PC's. BUT, a couple of them are complaining that the campaign seems disjointed, and they don't have a common goal. I tried to keep them within the realms of the original pre-fab story, but they went off to Neverwinter after stealing from a cloud giant that was going to take them to another campaign I made up.
So now they are just doodling around Neverwinter shopping and getting into fights, and suddenly it's my fault that the story has dwindled.
How do I get them to buy in to the story again, and guide them where I want them to go without taking away their choices?
Cloud Giants are powerful beings while long lived aren't really known for just letting things happen. They are also methodical in their approach because they live longer than most races. Why rush to judgment when time brings answers? This would be my way of starting it. Maybe the giants were preparing for some meeting with another tribe and the treasure they stole was going to be the gift, which is not replaceable.
The illusion of choice is a powerful tool in D&D campaigns and even the best of tables can suffer from the sandbox environment. Give them obvious goals, place checkpoints on the way that give obvious rewards for completing them and also shows waypoints for the next step. Pay attention to the things the players are saying at the table and build those things into your adventure. The rogue wants to go on a sneaky adventure? Make part of a dungeon something only solvable using his or her talents. The druid wants to reconnect to their nature past? Maybe have them find some sort of site amongst nature that provides this sort of respite and connection. The fighter wants to test their mettle in combat solo? Have them encounter a being who is honorable and needs to see that the "protector" of this party is worthy of the knowledge your new roadblock has.
I find this is generally my favorite approach for DMing. At the end of the day you have a story you want to tell, and the players are participants in that story. The goal is for them to have fun of course, but the fun for the DM is seeing how the story plays out and how they overcome your obstacles. You just need to guide them there, even if the road has a gentle slope that pushes them to the correct side of it.
Hi. Thanks for the sage advice. Much appreciated. I got the cloud giant NPC from Storm King's Thunder, he was Zephyros, and while at first he was helpful, he tracked them down and got the treasure back, with the help of some air elementals he summoned.
I will listen more to what they want to do, and try to adjust the story accordingly. We are also going to try to set up some house rules to keep the players and story in check. I think that they as newbies haven't been playing their characters right, ie: alignment. We all need to have a 'reset' session and they can work out what they want to do.
I am also an older adult running for my eldest sons friends (all highschoolers) I have asked them for short (paragraph) backstories and have inserted that information into the plot hooks. It helps to try and link two or more of them together to develop character connections and foster some teamwork. You can use these to spotlight characters in sessions to invest them into your story.
With experienced players I always ask for some background or even better character goals. They can be tangible or emotional, big or small, I don't care. I then work them into the story somehow over time. When a player realizes that something integrated into the larger story is specific to them it usually hooks them.
For less experienced players, and the age you are running, it can be tough. I remember playing then, and I've DM'd several different groups that age (I owned a gaming store for a while). Following their whims seems to be the case. Picking up on something they say, "Hey let's take this <blank> and sell it for..." or something like that and extending their journey to get there can work. You need to take that to so-and-so in Neverwinter. Then on the way a few encounters you had planned and shiny thing or two to distract them.
With younger/inexperienced players I would give them more direct choices in game to flesh out a backstory based on their character's background. For example, an NPC might have heard of a Folk Hero but not remember exactly what they did. You could make up things that happened in the various regions of your campaign setting and wait for the player to say "that was me" or a lord/lady may know another member of a noble's family. You can do something for just about all the backgrounds. I think that's what they are there for.
We've decided to reign the game in, create some new characters, and 'reset' by handing in all magic items, and sort of starting again on a couple of 'one shot' campaigns with more purpose. Everyone seems happy, and we will start with some strict table rules that they have to follow.
I saw that you are resetting the campaign, which is certainly a good option. As you move forward, if you discover your players are again starting to move away from the plot you have in mind, might I suggest adjusting the plot points so they'll be heading towards the conclusion anyway. This isn't railroading, because you aren't telling them what they can and can't do. Instead, if their mission is to go to Aldershot and instead they go to Barking, shift whatever plot points you can to Barking. If the plot is tied to Aldershot, have the players encounter news in Barking of the consequences of their absence.
We all agreed to restart at Falcon's Hunting Lodge and he sent them on a mission to rid an abandoned woodland manse of the evil that lurks within.
They are currently inside and are just about to fight some twig blights. I'm learning to balance the players, by not letting any of them dominate the gameplay. Being teenagers, and enthusiastic players, they shout. A LOT. I now ask them, 'are you shouting in the game? That could end badly in this scenario'. They don't shout quite so much anymore.
We have one teenager in our group of old farts. 4 of us were in college together and have played for decades, the teen is one players son. He is a good edition to the group and adds something new to the dynamics. But, he wants to do everything: loot the bodies, oh, check out those books, wait someone is opening a door? I'm there.
One way to counter that is if he is opening a chest, I give a vague description of what is in it, "you see some gold and a few other things. Ok, what are you (another player) doing, while he is looking in the chest." Then if he jumps in when I'm with another player I assume say, "ok, you stop looking through the chest and..." He caught on.
Think you already had a lot of good tips and have restarted the games. What is a real good session 0 is what kind of campaign do you want to run: - Is there a lot of magic, or is it rare, special? - How did the world develop, what kind of races are common or frowned upon etc. - What is your background story, do you know eachother maybe?
And also: How do the players like to play: - We want to play our character and have good laughs every session, visit bars and have some good fights where needed (joker mode) - We want to run around, slay monsters, complete quests and loot (skirmish mode, you prepare individual encounters jump across the world, learn the game and PC's level) - We want to complete interesting and challenging dungeons with some big bad guys (comparable to doing Raids in world of warcraft your focus on dungeon delving, slaying monsters but there's more relation between the encounters) - We want to roleplay our characters and interact with other characters and NPC's - pretending this is "real" - something is happening in your world and the characters (but also out game players) are invested to discover what's going on, to follow the story line set out by the DM etc.
Myself, and I think most serious DM's want to play the latter, involving the players into the world, however it's important to be aware the players need to want this to for this to work. And with that the involvement and how their characters hook into the storyline is as much, maybe even more, the responsibility of the Players than it's DM responsibility.
I had the same issue with SKT when some of the players said "Why do we need to save the world? Just because a vague cloud Giant said so? I don't think my character feels motivated to do this." After trying to solve this myself with some plot twists and councils I told him: this is your issue, your character went on an adventure after hearing about the Giant threat. Why did he do this?
Second to playing this way - I think - as a DM you have an important job to make one thing clear: It might be a fantasy world, but : actions have consequences
So in response to your original post: stealing from a cloud giant? What happened after they did this? (there is a great chapter in SKT of an evil cloud giant's castle)
And getting into fights in town? This happened in my campaign. They were followed back to their inn and confronted by a bandit captain. They picked a fight with the wrong guy and an assasin got hired when they choose not to appologize to them. Just to give an example how I implement the idea of actions have consequences.
Getting drunk in town? Disadvantage on your ability checks. Got even more drunk? You don't remember what happened last night but you wake up and notice your gold pouch is missing, or maybe you lost that magical sword.
Just make them suffer the consequences until it becomes clear to not mess around every single opportunity they get so it becomes more balanced :)
Realised I've been too easy on them, and I've made it harder, with more consequences, and 'near death encounters'. I'm also trying to DM like a dolphin.
So, I started a D&D group with my students ( I'm a high school teacher) and this is my first attempt at DM'ing after many years of play so I went with Dragon of Icespire Peak, and it went well at first.
Now the players have killed off / phased out a couple of themselves in order to introduce new version of their PC's. BUT, a couple of them are complaining that the campaign seems disjointed, and they don't have a common goal. I tried to keep them within the realms of the original pre-fab story, but they went off to Neverwinter after stealing from a cloud giant that was going to take them to another campaign I made up.
So now they are just doodling around Neverwinter shopping and getting into fights, and suddenly it's my fault that the story has dwindled.
How do I get them to buy in to the story again, and guide them where I want them to go without taking away their choices?
Cloud Giants are powerful beings while long lived aren't really known for just letting things happen. They are also methodical in their approach because they live longer than most races. Why rush to judgment when time brings answers? This would be my way of starting it. Maybe the giants were preparing for some meeting with another tribe and the treasure they stole was going to be the gift, which is not replaceable.
The illusion of choice is a powerful tool in D&D campaigns and even the best of tables can suffer from the sandbox environment. Give them obvious goals, place checkpoints on the way that give obvious rewards for completing them and also shows waypoints for the next step. Pay attention to the things the players are saying at the table and build those things into your adventure. The rogue wants to go on a sneaky adventure? Make part of a dungeon something only solvable using his or her talents. The druid wants to reconnect to their nature past? Maybe have them find some sort of site amongst nature that provides this sort of respite and connection. The fighter wants to test their mettle in combat solo? Have them encounter a being who is honorable and needs to see that the "protector" of this party is worthy of the knowledge your new roadblock has.
I find this is generally my favorite approach for DMing. At the end of the day you have a story you want to tell, and the players are participants in that story. The goal is for them to have fun of course, but the fun for the DM is seeing how the story plays out and how they overcome your obstacles. You just need to guide them there, even if the road has a gentle slope that pushes them to the correct side of it.
Hi. Thanks for the sage advice. Much appreciated. I got the cloud giant NPC from Storm King's Thunder, he was Zephyros, and while at first he was helpful, he tracked them down and got the treasure back, with the help of some air elementals he summoned.
I will listen more to what they want to do, and try to adjust the story accordingly. We are also going to try to set up some house rules to keep the players and story in check. I think that they as newbies haven't been playing their characters right, ie: alignment. We all need to have a 'reset' session and they can work out what they want to do.
Again, I really appreciate your advice.
I am also an older adult running for my eldest sons friends (all highschoolers) I have asked them for short (paragraph) backstories and have inserted that information into the plot hooks. It helps to try and link two or more of them together to develop character connections and foster some teamwork. You can use these to spotlight characters in sessions to invest them into your story.
Semper Fidelis
Thanks, well played sir.
With experienced players I always ask for some background or even better character goals. They can be tangible or emotional, big or small, I don't care. I then work them into the story somehow over time. When a player realizes that something integrated into the larger story is specific to them it usually hooks them.
For less experienced players, and the age you are running, it can be tough. I remember playing then, and I've DM'd several different groups that age (I owned a gaming store for a while). Following their whims seems to be the case. Picking up on something they say, "Hey let's take this <blank> and sell it for..." or something like that and extending their journey to get there can work. You need to take that to so-and-so in Neverwinter. Then on the way a few encounters you had planned and shiny thing or two to distract them.
Everyone is the main character of their story
With younger/inexperienced players I would give them more direct choices in game to flesh out a backstory based on their character's background. For example, an NPC might have heard of a Folk Hero but not remember exactly what they did. You could make up things that happened in the various regions of your campaign setting and wait for the player to say "that was me" or a lord/lady may know another member of a noble's family. You can do something for just about all the backgrounds. I think that's what they are there for.
Thanks everyone.
We've decided to reign the game in, create some new characters, and 'reset' by handing in all magic items, and sort of starting again on a couple of 'one shot' campaigns with more purpose. Everyone seems happy, and we will start with some strict table rules that they have to follow.
Great choice. And thanks for bringing in a new generation of roll players.
Everyone is the main character of their story
I saw that you are resetting the campaign, which is certainly a good option. As you move forward, if you discover your players are again starting to move away from the plot you have in mind, might I suggest adjusting the plot points so they'll be heading towards the conclusion anyway. This isn't railroading, because you aren't telling them what they can and can't do. Instead, if their mission is to go to Aldershot and instead they go to Barking, shift whatever plot points you can to Barking. If the plot is tied to Aldershot, have the players encounter news in Barking of the consequences of their absence.
That's one option, anyway.
Carrion
Great suggestions, thanks for helping out!
We all agreed to restart at Falcon's Hunting Lodge and he sent them on a mission to rid an abandoned woodland manse of the evil that lurks within.
They are currently inside and are just about to fight some twig blights. I'm learning to balance the players, by not letting any of them dominate the gameplay. Being teenagers, and enthusiastic players, they shout. A LOT. I now ask them, 'are you shouting in the game? That could end badly in this scenario'. They don't shout quite so much anymore.
We have one teenager in our group of old farts. 4 of us were in college together and have played for decades, the teen is one players son. He is a good edition to the group and adds something new to the dynamics. But, he wants to do everything: loot the bodies, oh, check out those books, wait someone is opening a door? I'm there.
One way to counter that is if he is opening a chest, I give a vague description of what is in it, "you see some gold and a few other things. Ok, what are you (another player) doing, while he is looking in the chest." Then if he jumps in when I'm with another player I assume say, "ok, you stop looking through the chest and..." He caught on.
Everyone is the main character of their story
Think you already had a lot of good tips and have restarted the games. What is a real good session 0 is what kind of campaign do you want to run:
- Is there a lot of magic, or is it rare, special?
- How did the world develop, what kind of races are common or frowned upon etc.
- What is your background story, do you know eachother maybe?
And also: How do the players like to play:
- We want to play our character and have good laughs every session, visit bars and have some good fights where needed (joker mode)
- We want to run around, slay monsters, complete quests and loot (skirmish mode, you prepare individual encounters jump across the world, learn the game and PC's level)
- We want to complete interesting and challenging dungeons with some big bad guys (comparable to doing Raids in world of warcraft your focus on dungeon delving, slaying monsters but there's more relation between the encounters)
- We want to roleplay our characters and interact with other characters and NPC's - pretending this is "real" - something is happening in your world and the characters (but also out game players) are invested to discover what's going on, to follow the story line set out by the DM etc.
Myself, and I think most serious DM's want to play the latter, involving the players into the world, however it's important to be aware the players need to want this to for this to work.
And with that the involvement and how their characters hook into the storyline is as much, maybe even more, the responsibility of the Players than it's DM responsibility.
I had the same issue with SKT when some of the players said "Why do we need to save the world? Just because a vague cloud Giant said so? I don't think my character feels motivated to do this." After trying to solve this myself with some plot twists and councils I told him: this is your issue, your character went on an adventure after hearing about the Giant threat. Why did he do this?
Second to playing this way - I think - as a DM you have an important job to make one thing clear: It might be a fantasy world, but : actions have consequences
So in response to your original post: stealing from a cloud giant? What happened after they did this? (there is a great chapter in SKT of an evil cloud giant's castle)
And getting into fights in town? This happened in my campaign. They were followed back to their inn and confronted by a bandit captain. They picked a fight with the wrong guy and an assasin got hired when they choose not to appologize to them. Just to give an example how I implement the idea of actions have consequences.
Getting drunk in town? Disadvantage on your ability checks. Got even more drunk? You don't remember what happened last night but you wake up and notice your gold pouch is missing, or maybe you lost that magical sword.
Just make them suffer the consequences until it becomes clear to not mess around every single opportunity they get so it becomes more balanced :)
Regards,
Rob.
Great advice too Rob.
Realised I've been too easy on them, and I've made it harder, with more consequences, and 'near death encounters'. I'm also trying to DM like a dolphin.
See this blog : https://theangrygm.com/manage-combat-like-a-dolphin/
They are learning really fast now.