I'm curious how other DM's handle the severe reduction that complete immunity to a monsters damage type inflicts on the proposed challenge of an encounter, as in the example from the thread title. Now, if it was a spellcasting Dragon (which is an optional rule, I understand), perhaps it could dispel the immunity on select characters one by one. Better yet, it may just decide to cast Anti-Magic Sphere (Field?) on itself and reveal the difference between evolved monkeys and Dragons. But if the Dragon isn't a spell caster ... Is it just screwed? While I support the players taking every advantage given, this one seems a bit over the top. If they were immune to the condition of poisoned, and had resistance to the damage, we'd still have a game, but total immunity?
Does anyone else wonder if pure immunity to damage types and conditions, particularly of the kind that lasts not 10 minutes but 24 hours, cause something of a problem? My personal thought is to House Rule that the immunity is downgraded to resistance plus advantage on all saves vs Poison and the condition, but I was curious if anyone had an alternative strategy for handling this one example, or perhaps just had a different viewpoint. I'm not running a game this week with this situation, just looking over rules amd looking ahead. Thanks in advance.
Is there any real difference between 1 minute, 10 minutes, and 24 hours when it comes to an encounter? Can't think of many combats that lasted more than 10 rounds. Why punish the party for being prepared? In my worlds/campaigns all Adult+ Dragons are spellcasters, because that is the lore I prefer. But even without that, let's look at what that Ancient Dragon can do in a round against a party of 5 when it goes doesn't really matter...
Assume Party goes to Dragon's lair for confrontation...
Lair Action: That Barbarian or Fighter looking type, DC 15 Wisdom or Charmed. Party 1: moves/attacks/casts at the end of turn Dragon Wing Attacks all within 15' and moves. Party 2: moves/attacks/casts at the end of turn Dragon Wing Attacks all within 15 and moves'. Party 3: moves/attacks/casts at the end of turn Dragon Wing Attacks all within 15' and moves. Dragon: moves/frightful presence/multi-attacks/breathes (will only breathe once, it will notice no effect of breath, maybe of earlier bite) Party 4: moves/attacks/casts Party 5: moves/attacks/casts
Rinse and repeat. Don't forget, the lair will be in/close to water and have room to fly.
The party burns a level 6 spell with a 10 minute casting time, plus an hour to actually eat the stuff. Good on them for being that prepared, and knowing what they were hunting. They had the right tool for the job and they used it. Plus, as Pedroig points out, dragons have much more going for them than just their breath weapon.
Once the dragon uses the breath attack and realises it has no effect they will focus on physical attacks and tactics to its advantage like grabbing an enemy and flying high up to munch on it or throw it down.
Dragons can do a lot and are still very dangerous even without the breath attack, especially if Ancient with Lair Actions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Thanks to everyone able to reply and Apologies that I didn't spot this earlier, apparently my notifications might be broken. In relation to the Green Dragon having far more options even without spellcasting, I'd agree, but I find it very interesting thay there aren't other spells that provide such blanket immunity against damage types, especially fire. To my mind, it's one thing to have resistance and advantage for the entire group, but if you're granting immunity, why not allow that for the whole group against every damage type? Hell, fire and cold are both more common, especially for purposes of Environment, why isn't there a 6th level or higher spell addressing that?
LOL, I *suspect* most people would say total blanket immunity to just any one damage type is too much, at least for a spell that encompasses the whole party and lasts 24 hours. Hell, look at the Wish spell and the restrictions on the most epic spell in the game!
I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there relatively few monsters that do poison damage? Outside of a rogue with a poisoned sword or something. So they can put that immunity on without worry it will be game breaking. But if there was fire immunity that cancels out the many creatures that do fire and a good chunk of a wizard’s spell book. So they kept it at poison, knowing it would be very situational. Like a ribbon ability when a pc levels. When it comes up it can really save you, but it won’t come up often.
Poison damage is pretty common, but poison damage (and immunity) is also extremely common; that's probably why 3e green dragons do acid damage. I would be tempted to change Heroes' Feast to only grant resistance (or remove it totally and replace it with some other benefit), but also generally count poison damage as reduced value when computing CR.
I would also change its duration from Instantaneous to 24 hours, meaning it can be dispelled.
Heroes’ Feast only confers immunity to poison, not to poison damage. These are different things.
If that was the intent, it would be written as "Immunity to being poisoned". It's certainly possible that RAI was that, but as written it's immunity to all effects that are classed as poison, which is somewhat vague because 5e doesn't actually have effect descriptors, which leads to occasional awkward phrasing such as Stinking Cloud, which it would be much simpler to just call '3rd level conjuration [poison]'
Heres what I feel is a fair question: If we were to strip away the flavor of the spell, and just look at it mechanically, is there any reason to say a homebrewed spell couldn't be created with the exact same casting time, requirements, and cost ... But have it grant Immunity to fire, or acid, etc.? Hell, make it one level higher even. It certainly works for the purposes of an Ambassador type spell, for travelling between planes.
Heres what I feel is a fair question: If we were to strip away the flavor of the spell, and just look at it mechanically, is there any reason to say a homebrewed spell couldn't be created with the exact same casting time, requirements, and cost ... But have it grant Immunity to fire, or acid, etc.? Hell, make it one level higher even.
A homebrew can do whatever you want it to do, but in general it is considered more normal to be immune to poison damage than to be immune to other damage types (all objects are immune to poison, for example).
@Pantagruel Sure, but the general hope of homebrew is to attempt to hold true to the spirit of RAW and it's design precepts. So, if we grant that poison and the combo poisoned condition is of a lower "value" when putting together the spell, what level or cost would be appropriate for group fire immunity that lasts 24 hours, 8 hours, 10 minutes? And doesn't have concentration attached, I might add. I don't think Poison and the Poisoned condition is 3 levels and 50,000 gold in value differential from Fire Immunity, but I can certainly be wrong.
I'm curious how other DM's handle the severe reduction that complete immunity to a monsters damage type inflicts on the proposed challenge of an encounter, as in the example from the thread title. Now, if it was a spellcasting Dragon (which is an optional rule, I understand), perhaps it could dispel the immunity on select characters one by one. Better yet, it may just decide to cast Anti-Magic Sphere (Field?) on itself and reveal the difference between evolved monkeys and Dragons. But if the Dragon isn't a spell caster ... Is it just screwed? While I support the players taking every advantage given, this one seems a bit over the top. If they were immune to the condition of poisoned, and had resistance to the damage, we'd still have a game, but total immunity?
Does anyone else wonder if pure immunity to damage types and conditions, particularly of the kind that lasts not 10 minutes but 24 hours, cause something of a problem? My personal thought is to House Rule that the immunity is downgraded to resistance plus advantage on all saves vs Poison and the condition, but I was curious if anyone had an alternative strategy for handling this one example, or perhaps just had a different viewpoint. I'm not running a game this week with this situation, just looking over rules amd looking ahead. Thanks in advance.
Is there any real difference between 1 minute, 10 minutes, and 24 hours when it comes to an encounter? Can't think of many combats that lasted more than 10 rounds. Why punish the party for being prepared? In my worlds/campaigns all Adult+ Dragons are spellcasters, because that is the lore I prefer. But even without that, let's look at what that Ancient Dragon can do in a round against a party of 5 when it goes doesn't really matter...
Assume Party goes to Dragon's lair for confrontation...
Lair Action: That Barbarian or Fighter looking type, DC 15 Wisdom or Charmed.
Party 1: moves/attacks/casts at the end of turn Dragon Wing Attacks all within 15' and moves.
Party 2: moves/attacks/casts at the end of turn Dragon Wing Attacks all within 15 and moves'.
Party 3: moves/attacks/casts at the end of turn Dragon Wing Attacks all within 15' and moves.
Dragon: moves/frightful presence/multi-attacks/breathes (will only breathe once, it will notice no effect of breath, maybe of earlier bite)
Party 4: moves/attacks/casts
Party 5: moves/attacks/casts
Rinse and repeat. Don't forget, the lair will be in/close to water and have room to fly.
The party burns a level 6 spell with a 10 minute casting time, plus an hour to actually eat the stuff. Good on them for being that prepared, and knowing what they were hunting. They had the right tool for the job and they used it. Plus, as Pedroig points out, dragons have much more going for them than just their breath weapon.
Once the dragon uses the breath attack and realises it has no effect they will focus on physical attacks and tactics to its advantage like grabbing an enemy and flying high up to munch on it or throw it down.
Dragons can do a lot and are still very dangerous even without the breath attack, especially if Ancient with Lair Actions.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Thanks to everyone able to reply and Apologies that I didn't spot this earlier, apparently my notifications might be broken. In relation to the Green Dragon having far more options even without spellcasting, I'd agree, but I find it very interesting thay there aren't other spells that provide such blanket immunity against damage types, especially fire. To my mind, it's one thing to have resistance and advantage for the entire group, but if you're granting immunity, why not allow that for the whole group against every damage type? Hell, fire and cold are both more common, especially for purposes of Environment, why isn't there a 6th level or higher spell addressing that?
Homebrew a Hero’s Feast of Spicy Thai food that instead grants immunity to Fire Damage if they can pass the CON save to finish eating it.
LOL, I *suspect* most people would say total blanket immunity to just any one damage type is too much, at least for a spell that encompasses the whole party and lasts 24 hours. Hell, look at the Wish spell and the restrictions on the most epic spell in the game!
I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there relatively few monsters that do poison damage? Outside of a rogue with a poisoned sword or something. So they can put that immunity on without worry it will be game breaking. But if there was fire immunity that cancels out the many creatures that do fire and a good chunk of a wizard’s spell book. So they kept it at poison, knowing it would be very situational. Like a ribbon ability when a pc levels. When it comes up it can really save you, but it won’t come up often.
134 creatures do poison damage. Granted that is counting Adult and Ancient Green Dragons as different creatures, same thing with Drow, Yuan-Ti, etc.
Poison also occurs on traps and makes sense for natural hazards as well.
They had this fight in Critical Role Season 1 and
Raishan did start to dispel their Feast benefits while hiding under a Greater Invisibility.
As to why poison got singled out for immunity from a Heroes' Feast? It just makes sense for the spell?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Poison damage is pretty common, but poison damage (and immunity) is also extremely common; that's probably why 3e green dragons do acid damage. I would be tempted to change Heroes' Feast to only grant resistance (or remove it totally and replace it with some other benefit), but also generally count poison damage as reduced value when computing CR.
I would also change its duration from Instantaneous to 24 hours, meaning it can be dispelled.
Heroes’ Feast only confers immunity to poison, not to poison damage. These are different things. A green dragon’s breath weapon still works fine.
Per the Sage Advice Compendium
See, I knew you all would correct me if I was off. My mistake.
If that was the intent, it would be written as "Immunity to being poisoned". It's certainly possible that RAI was that, but as written it's immunity to all effects that are classed as poison, which is somewhat vague because 5e doesn't actually have effect descriptors, which leads to occasional awkward phrasing such as Stinking Cloud, which it would be much simpler to just call '3rd level conjuration [poison]'
Heres what I feel is a fair question: If we were to strip away the flavor of the spell, and just look at it mechanically, is there any reason to say a homebrewed spell couldn't be created with the exact same casting time, requirements, and cost ... But have it grant Immunity to fire, or acid, etc.? Hell, make it one level higher even. It certainly works for the purposes of an Ambassador type spell, for travelling between planes.
A homebrew can do whatever you want it to do, but in general it is considered more normal to be immune to poison damage than to be immune to other damage types (all objects are immune to poison, for example).
@Pantagruel Sure, but the general hope of homebrew is to attempt to hold true to the spirit of RAW and it's design precepts. So, if we grant that poison and the combo poisoned condition is of a lower "value" when putting together the spell, what level or cost would be appropriate for group fire immunity that lasts 24 hours, 8 hours, 10 minutes? And doesn't have concentration attached, I might add. I don't think Poison and the Poisoned condition is 3 levels and 50,000 gold in value differential from Fire Immunity, but I can certainly be wrong.
Level 9. Heroes' Feast isn't really level 6 appropriate.