I have a player playing a lawful good assimar Paladin... according to his character sheet đ
He started off with the Oath of Devotion and had problems with telling the truth and killing peasants who did attack him, but had no real chance of harming him... I took away a few of his powers and after 6 or so sessions (we play about once a month) he retook his oath to his god and chose vengeance... so far, he's committed patriciced (to be fair, his father had become possessed by a demon), failed to provide any restitution to those his father harmed, renegotiated his brother's debt (paying less than he was owed) and almost used his brother as collateral to avoid paying off the debt at all (this doesn't include hoarding magical items that I explicitly stated was for another character out of game and in game other party members pointing out it would be more beneficial to the other character).
If he was playing a Conquest Paladin, I can see how his actions could align. As it is, I don't want to cause drama by kicking him out, but I'm not quite sure how to tackle in game consequences for his actions. I also not sure if I should provide any more out of game warnings. Suggestions?
If heâs level 3 or higher, turn him into an Oathbreaker paladin from the DMG. Then itâs up to you if you want to claim him and make him an NPC (which will make for a fantastic recurring villain) or let him try to make amends. Since this is the second time heâs done this with the same character, however, I imagine whatever grants him his power will be very skeptical about believing him again. If you give him another chance, perhaps he has a vision telling him this will be his last chance at keeping his vows before heâs completely shunned.
I donât see a big issue with his actions as on Oath of Vengeance Paladin. The PHB description of them specifies âTheir own purity is not as important as delivering justice.â And âBy any Means Necessary.â Yeah, his actions are definitely more LN, and maybe you make a DM fiat and say âyour alignment is LN, based on the way your character has behaved up till now. Mark it on your sheet. In the rare instance that something alignment-dependent should happen, the sheet will be the measure of applicability, so it needs to be accurate. We can revisit this if your character starts acting different.â
But maybe make another Vengeance Paladin attack him on behalf of the citizens who didnât get justice for his fatherâs actions. That might serve as a check on his identity as a bringer of justice.
I would have a conversation with the player. I would not handle this IC unless there is a good reason to. Maybe he just doesn't understand the oath system and what he's supposed to do with it. Maybe he views these things as just "lines on the character sheet that give me cool abilities," rather than something he's supposed to actually RP about.
However, if he does understand how this works and is for whatever reason RPing against his class or subclass, then it may be time to step in. One thing I might consider is telling him that all future levels must be in a non-spellcasting class like Fighter or Barbarian or maybe Rogue from now on because he is not acting "Paladinish" enough to keep gaining Paladin levels. In an extreme case you could require him to rebuild his entire character sheet as just a Fighter, Rogue, or Barbarian.
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I have had multiple conversations and even with his "redemption" arc, explained how he was violating his oath and suggested the Conquest Oath if he wanted to keep playing as is...
I have had other issues with the player and I'm trying to keep them separate from this.
Most of his RP experience has been with CRPGs, but we have played with other characters and systems. We would laugh off some of the behaviours (such as the time he was playing a hero, got caught tresspassing, so he disguised himself as a villain and attacked the person who had spotted him before running away), but as a Paladin in a campaign we started over two years ago, it's turning into a problematic situation where even the more dubious characters are starting to question why they want to be associated with a character with such a questionable track record.
I'm hoping to avoid turning his PC into an NPC, but have been toying with the idea of turning him into a Fallen Aasimar (he has met another in game during our first year of play). Last time I gave him a list of quests to perform (as guidance), and he just treated it as a checklist (my bad, I've known him for over a decade and should have seen that coming). I still like the idea of redemption...
Then at this point I would probably rule that he is a fighter, or a barbarian, but not a paladin, based on his behavior. Or at the least, that future levels must be done in another class.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I donât see a big issue with his actions as on Oath of Vengeance Paladin. The PHB description of them specifies âTheir own purity is not as important as delivering justice.â And âBy any Means Necessary.â
That's still ignoring the Restitution part of his oath... and I would think sharing magical items that require attunement when his slots are already full and the other player (a Cleric) only ownes one attunable item, would more efficiently help deliver justice.
I do like the idea idea of another Paladin coming to try and force him to address his shortcomings, but I'm afraid the player wouldn't get the point in game and out of game he would try to justify every action he took or shift blame... đ„
Then at this point I would probably rule that he is a fighter, or a barbarian, but not a paladin, based on his behavior. Or at the least, that future levels must be done in another class.
Thank you for the advice. For the first 12 sessions or so, his character kept claiming to be a fighter to both NPCs and the PCs. đ
Back in the day, we had a player who ran a Paladin in Rolemaster -- different system but same basic class idea. He was LG, and his god was an ocean god ("Numa," I believe he was called) and also LG. The Paladin's name was Sir Thomas.
Now, Sir Thomas' player wasn't like the one you describe -- he did try to follow the letter of the rules, for his character. In those days Paladins were supposed to tithe 10%, so he tithed 10%, and he did this of his total treasure (magic gp value + total gold earned). This is what you are supposed to do. He got 10,000 gp of treasure, he would immediately reduce it to 9K and say "I tithe 10%."
But that's all he did. He did not RP it. He studiously avoided getting into philosophical debates with the mostly neutral-ish party. He found ways to RP his character "not noticing" the expedient, "ends-justify-the-means" behavior of the Nightblade (magical assassin) and Rogue. He made sure his character did the "right things" on paper, but nowhere else.
So the GM started giving him vivid "vision dreams." In the first one, he was at sea, and the swells kept pulling him under. The player correctly deduced that Numa was mad at him, but not why. The dreams continued, and the player's reaction was to cross of 20%, then 30% of his treasure for tithe -- but again, not change his RP.
Finally the GM gave him a dream that I still remember. Sir Thomas watched from behind as this clearly wealthy man strode through the town. He wore golden, shining armor. He wore a tiara full of diamonds. He had rings with rubies and emeralds on every finger. He carried a large sack laden with gold. And he had a cape of the finest silk. He walked through the town, past beggars with their hands out, ignoring them. Past barefoot, starving children begging for food, brushing them aside. Past wounded animals, stepping right over them. He looked neither left nor right, but walked right up the gilded doors of the rich, opulent Temple to Numa. Following along, Sir Thomas was getting angrier and angrier, and started to approach. The doors opened, and equally rich-clad priests reached out, and the wealthy man handed over the huge sack of gold, and the priests, also ignoring the beggars and the children, went inside and closed the door. Sir Thomas finally drew steel, and approached this indifferent rich man, grabbing him by the arm, ready to throw down over his disdainful behavior. And when the rich man turned around he saw that it was... himself.
At this point the player finally GOT it. But it took many sessions and visions and finally this very blatant example, for him to realize that just crossing off money from his treasury was not the same as RPing that he served his deity. But the sad part is, the player wised up for a few sessions, but then bit by bit slid back to the old ways. Eventually the GM just gave up and let it go.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
BioWizard, thst reminded me of the visions and dreams I gave the player before taking some of his abilities away the first time, but that final dream sequence you showed was brilliant. Thank you for sharing. đ
As soon as he retook his oath and was out of "time out", I see the same issues arising, but he's at a higher level now...
He had been good before, probably the best in our group. Definitely the best at running combat and such. But then he went off to college and someone taught him Rolemaster and he became an uber-GM. Literally the best I have ever played with, best I have ever seen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
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I have a player playing a lawful good assimar Paladin... according to his character sheet đ
He started off with the Oath of Devotion and had problems with telling the truth and killing peasants who did attack him, but had no real chance of harming him... I took away a few of his powers and after 6 or so sessions (we play about once a month) he retook his oath to his god and chose vengeance... so far, he's committed patriciced (to be fair, his father had become possessed by a demon), failed to provide any restitution to those his father harmed, renegotiated his brother's debt (paying less than he was owed) and almost used his brother as collateral to avoid paying off the debt at all (this doesn't include hoarding magical items that I explicitly stated was for another character out of game and in game other party members pointing out it would be more beneficial to the other character).
If he was playing a Conquest Paladin, I can see how his actions could align. As it is, I don't want to cause drama by kicking him out, but I'm not quite sure how to tackle in game consequences for his actions. I also not sure if I should provide any more out of game warnings. Suggestions?
Thank you!
If heâs level 3 or higher, turn him into an Oathbreaker paladin from the DMG. Then itâs up to you if you want to claim him and make him an NPC (which will make for a fantastic recurring villain) or let him try to make amends.
Since this is the second time heâs done this with the same character, however, I imagine whatever grants him his power will be very skeptical about believing him again.
If you give him another chance, perhaps he has a vision telling him this will be his last chance at keeping his vows before heâs completely shunned.
I donât see a big issue with his actions as on Oath of Vengeance Paladin. The PHB description of them specifies âTheir own purity is not as important as delivering justice.â And âBy any Means Necessary.â Yeah, his actions are definitely more LN, and maybe you make a DM fiat and say âyour alignment is LN, based on the way your character has behaved up till now. Mark it on your sheet. In the rare instance that something alignment-dependent should happen, the sheet will be the measure of applicability, so it needs to be accurate. We can revisit this if your character starts acting different.â
But maybe make another Vengeance Paladin attack him on behalf of the citizens who didnât get justice for his fatherâs actions. That might serve as a check on his identity as a bringer of justice.
I would have a conversation with the player. I would not handle this IC unless there is a good reason to. Maybe he just doesn't understand the oath system and what he's supposed to do with it. Maybe he views these things as just "lines on the character sheet that give me cool abilities," rather than something he's supposed to actually RP about.
However, if he does understand how this works and is for whatever reason RPing against his class or subclass, then it may be time to step in. One thing I might consider is telling him that all future levels must be in a non-spellcasting class like Fighter or Barbarian or maybe Rogue from now on because he is not acting "Paladinish" enough to keep gaining Paladin levels. In an extreme case you could require him to rebuild his entire character sheet as just a Fighter, Rogue, or Barbarian.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I have had multiple conversations and even with his "redemption" arc, explained how he was violating his oath and suggested the Conquest Oath if he wanted to keep playing as is...
I have had other issues with the player and I'm trying to keep them separate from this.
Most of his RP experience has been with CRPGs, but we have played with other characters and systems. We would laugh off some of the behaviours (such as the time he was playing a hero, got caught tresspassing, so he disguised himself as a villain and attacked the person who had spotted him before running away), but as a Paladin in a campaign we started over two years ago, it's turning into a problematic situation where even the more dubious characters are starting to question why they want to be associated with a character with such a questionable track record.
I'm hoping to avoid turning his PC into an NPC, but have been toying with the idea of turning him into a Fallen Aasimar (he has met another in game during our first year of play). Last time I gave him a list of quests to perform (as guidance), and he just treated it as a checklist (my bad, I've known him for over a decade and should have seen that coming). I still like the idea of redemption...
Then at this point I would probably rule that he is a fighter, or a barbarian, but not a paladin, based on his behavior. Or at the least, that future levels must be done in another class.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That's still ignoring the Restitution part of his oath... and I would think sharing magical items that require attunement when his slots are already full and the other player (a Cleric) only ownes one attunable item, would more efficiently help deliver justice.
I do like the idea idea of another Paladin coming to try and force him to address his shortcomings, but I'm afraid the player wouldn't get the point in game and out of game he would try to justify every action he took or shift blame... đ„
Thank you for the advice. For the first 12 sessions or so, his character kept claiming to be a fighter to both NPCs and the PCs. đ
Back in the day, we had a player who ran a Paladin in Rolemaster -- different system but same basic class idea. He was LG, and his god was an ocean god ("Numa," I believe he was called) and also LG. The Paladin's name was Sir Thomas.
Now, Sir Thomas' player wasn't like the one you describe -- he did try to follow the letter of the rules, for his character. In those days Paladins were supposed to tithe 10%, so he tithed 10%, and he did this of his total treasure (magic gp value + total gold earned). This is what you are supposed to do. He got 10,000 gp of treasure, he would immediately reduce it to 9K and say "I tithe 10%."
But that's all he did. He did not RP it. He studiously avoided getting into philosophical debates with the mostly neutral-ish party. He found ways to RP his character "not noticing" the expedient, "ends-justify-the-means" behavior of the Nightblade (magical assassin) and Rogue. He made sure his character did the "right things" on paper, but nowhere else.
So the GM started giving him vivid "vision dreams." In the first one, he was at sea, and the swells kept pulling him under. The player correctly deduced that Numa was mad at him, but not why. The dreams continued, and the player's reaction was to cross of 20%, then 30% of his treasure for tithe -- but again, not change his RP.
Finally the GM gave him a dream that I still remember. Sir Thomas watched from behind as this clearly wealthy man strode through the town. He wore golden, shining armor. He wore a tiara full of diamonds. He had rings with rubies and emeralds on every finger. He carried a large sack laden with gold. And he had a cape of the finest silk. He walked through the town, past beggars with their hands out, ignoring them. Past barefoot, starving children begging for food, brushing them aside. Past wounded animals, stepping right over them. He looked neither left nor right, but walked right up the gilded doors of the rich, opulent Temple to Numa. Following along, Sir Thomas was getting angrier and angrier, and started to approach. The doors opened, and equally rich-clad priests reached out, and the wealthy man handed over the huge sack of gold, and the priests, also ignoring the beggars and the children, went inside and closed the door. Sir Thomas finally drew steel, and approached this indifferent rich man, grabbing him by the arm, ready to throw down over his disdainful behavior. And when the rich man turned around he saw that it was... himself.
At this point the player finally GOT it. But it took many sessions and visions and finally this very blatant example, for him to realize that just crossing off money from his treasury was not the same as RPing that he served his deity. But the sad part is, the player wised up for a few sessions, but then bit by bit slid back to the old ways. Eventually the GM just gave up and let it go.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
BioWizard, thst reminded me of the visions and dreams I gave the player before taking some of his abilities away the first time, but that final dream sequence you showed was brilliant. Thank you for sharing. đ
As soon as he retook his oath and was out of "time out", I see the same issues arising, but he's at a higher level now...
The GM who ran that game was amazing.
He had been good before, probably the best in our group. Definitely the best at running combat and such. But then he went off to college and someone taught him Rolemaster and he became an uber-GM. Literally the best I have ever played with, best I have ever seen.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.