Fair enough. But also bear in mind that he has the correct tools to hand already at that point, he doesn't need to get his tools out, examine the lock, select the correct tool etc. as he has already done that before the video.
I would like to see him with a big bag of locks and all his tools in a box pull a random lock out of the bag and pick it. It would be interesting to see.
However, I agree that 99% of the time the lock will be simple, and it would only be worth rolling a check if there were serious consequences to failing. However, as soon as there are serious consequences, or as soon as the lock is more complex and secure, I would be asking for a check as long as there is even the slightest chance of failure.
The original question was how long it takes in combat, so we don't need to keep pointing out that you don't need to do this or that if there are no consequences.
I will still roll even if players have unlimited time to try, but the DCs are different. An ordinary lock might be DC 10 to pick in a non-combat situation, but DC 20 to do it in one action. The DC 10 already represents multiple tries, so no you can't just try again if you fail. In any real puzzle-solving situation, everyone will run out of new ideas at some point, and trying the same thing again won't get you anywhere. I will let them retry after a short rest; you know how sometimes when you take your mind off a task the solution that was evading you comes to you.
I discussed with my players (several of whom are also GMs), and we came up with a ruleset that we're going to use in our games.
Lockpicking
Requirement: You must be trained with Thieves’ Tools. You must have Thieves’ Tools (improvised tools impose Disadvantage).
Skill
Determine your Base Skill and your Maximum Skill
Base Skill is 10 + DEX mod + proficiency bonus
Max Skill is 20 + DEX mod + proficiency bonus
Process – Calm Environment
Step 1: If your Base Skill equals or exceeds the lock’s DC, you pick the lock in the base number of rounds.
Step 2: If your Base Skill is too low, but your Max Skill equals or exceeds the locks DC, you pick the lock in the base number of MINUTES.
Process – Dangerous/Stressful Environment (i.e. Combat, sinking ship, etc.)
Step 1: Convert “Base # of rounds” to “# of Successes”
Step 2: Roll your skill each round
Step 2a: If you are directly threatened in melee during your turn, or you were attacked at range (weapon or spell) since your previous turn, you must roll at disadvantage.
Step 2b: If you have disadvantage more than once, each additional instance lowers your skill by 5. (This may make the lock “too difficult” during the stressful situation.)
Time:
Locks require 1 round/success per 5 DC, as a starting point.
If you have to use your Max Skill, you are “taking 20”, which takes 10 times as long, hence the bump up from rounds to minutes.
Targets & Modifiers
Simple Lock (tavern door): DC 10, 2 successes/rounds
Standard Lock (dungeon door, most chests): DC 15, 3 successes/rounds
Hard Lock (castle gates, secure storeroom): DC 20, 4 successes/rounds
Legendary Lock (Fenris Wolf’s bindings): DC 30, 6 successes/rounds
Picking the lock silently: +2 DC
Picking the lock faster: +5 DC for all rolls, reduce required rounds/successes by 1 (can be applied multiple times)
Clearing a Jammed lock: DC 15 or the lock’s rating, whichever is higher
Consequences and Failures
If you have to roll (i.e. stressful situation), and roll a “Nat 1”, roll again with the same DC:
If you “succeed”, you made no progress, but nothing bad happened.
If you “fail”, you had a setback; in addition to making no progress, add 1 to the number of successes needed.
If you “fail by 10”, your picks are damaged. They are now “improvised”; a second “damaged” result breaks them. (If they were already “improvised”, they are broken.)
If you “Nat 1” again, the lock has seized and cannot be opened.
If you have disadvantage, and roll a pair:
If the result was a success, claim the success and your next attempt ignores disadvantage from one source.
If the result was a failure, treat as if you rolled a “Nat 1”.
If the result was a pair of “Nat 1s”, immediately suffer the worst result (damaged picks and a seized lock).
Additional factors:
-- Lock Quality: generally, affects base DC (which might affect time required)
-- Design: generally, adding/modifying cost of failure, or base time/succeses required, perhaps forcing a roll always
-- Traps
-- Magic
For example, a "Quality Tavern Lock" might be DC 12. a "Standard Dwarven Lock" might be DC 15, +1 success/time, and adds "fail by 10" as a failure trigger. A Masterwork standard chest lock might be DC 17, can't be picked silently or fast, and triggers a trap on "fail by 5" that damages your picks.
The original question was how long it takes in combat, so we don't need to keep pointing out that you don't need to do this or that if there are no consequences.
We have answered the question. RAW - 1 standard action, or if a thief using the fast hands class feature 1 bonus action. Anything else is homebrew.
The original question was how long it takes in combat, so we don't need to keep pointing out that you don't need to do this or that if there are no consequences.
We have answered the question. RAW - 1 standard action, or if a thief using the fast hands class feature 1 bonus action. Anything else is homebrew.
RAW is "it takes as many actions as it specified in the description of the lock" and the fast hands feature allows replacing an action with a bonus action. A standard lock takes one action.
The original question was how long it takes in combat, so we don't need to keep pointing out that you don't need to do this or that if there are no consequences.
We have answered the question. RAW - 1 standard action, or if a thief using the fast hands class feature 1 bonus action. Anything else is homebrew.
I asked you where in the rules it says this, and you didn't answer, so I'm not sure what you mean by "We have answered the question."
Depends how much the player of the rogue wants to focus on his/her character's a ability to lock pick. If he/her rogue is really good, it would take significantly shorter to lock pick, also vice-versa.
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"If you ever ask a wizard to list the books they've read recently, prepare to be there for a solid week. " - Original.
I'm not sure if there is a specific rule about it. I certainly can't find one.
The description of a lock in equipment says "Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check." This would suggest to me that it could be done as an action, and is the closest I can find. It doesn't definitively say that it takes an action. However, combined with the thief's Fast Hands allowing it as a bonus action and general rules about use of objects, I think it's a reasonable inference.
However, unless there are specific written rules that I'm unaware of targeting lock picking which clarify it, I think we're in the realms of DMs discretion. We are inferring the rules from various sources. There is no specific action which describes picking a lock (with the exception of the Fast Hands bonus action), so it's a improvised action to be handled by the DM.
Something I've been a bit confused with resulting in my groups' rogues' mechanical manipulation generally being adjudicated on the fly, and this thread seems the place to lay it out. Rogues generally take proficiency in Thieves Tools, can even take expertise in them. Fast hands centers the rogue's lock picking and disarm traps on Sleight of Hand. Sleight of hand is a deft touch mixed with the art of misdirection, useful for picking pockets, but not really for locks, especially if you're trying to do it quickly. It just seems to punish players who want to be a "cracker" with locks and device traps by imposing a mechanic that doesn't make a lot of sense. It just seems one of those areas where the rogue isn't fully thought out or suffers a built in contradiction that should have popped up during the editorial process.
Slightly related, but just seems like a space to explore this curiosity to. How many plain Thief PCs exist in your games? Every rogue in my games to date have gone a different path.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Something I've been a bit confused with resulting in my groups' rogues' mechanical manipulation generally being adjudicated on the fly, and this thread seems the place to lay it out. Rogues generally take proficiency in Thieves Tools, can even take expertise in them. Fast hands centers the rogue's lock picking and disarm traps on Sleight of Hand. Sleight of hand is a deft touch mixed with the art of misdirection, useful for picking pockets, but not really for locks, especially if you're trying to do it quickly. It just seems to punish players who want to be a "cracker" with locks and device traps by imposing a mechanic that doesn't make a lot of sense. It just seems one of those areas where the rogue isn't fully thought out or suffers a built in contradiction that should have popped up during the editorial process.
Slightly related, but just seems like a space to explore this curiosity to. How many plain Thief PCs exist in your games? Every rogue in my games to date have gone a different path.
I think you're misreading something. Nothing about Fast Hands "centers the rogue's lock picking and disarm traps on Sleight of Hand."
Something I've been a bit confused with resulting in my groups' rogues' mechanical manipulation generally being adjudicated on the fly, and this thread seems the place to lay it out. Rogues generally take proficiency in Thieves Tools, can even take expertise in them. Fast hands centers the rogue's lock picking and disarm traps on Sleight of Hand. Sleight of hand is a deft touch mixed with the art of misdirection, useful for picking pockets, but not really for locks, especially if you're trying to do it quickly. It just seems to punish players who want to be a "cracker" with locks and device traps by imposing a mechanic that doesn't make a lot of sense. It just seems one of those areas where the rogue isn't fully thought out or suffers a built in contradiction that should have popped up during the editorial process.
Slightly related, but just seems like a space to explore this curiosity to. How many plain Thief PCs exist in your games? Every rogue in my games to date have gone a different path.
I think you're misreading something. Nothing about Fast Hands "centers the rogue's lock picking and disarm traps on Sleight of Hand."
You are right, there's a comma between sleight of hand and tool usage which for some reason I've been reading as a sleight of hand to perform tool usage. I think my misreading came from sessions I played in where the rogue might have been "fast talking" the rules and the DM letting it go. Their real life CHR check must have been high as, while I've had this stated misgiving, I sort of took that practice into my own game. Turns out may call for tool proficiency checks aren't a fix so much as actually playing RAW.
Fair enough. But also bear in mind that he has the correct tools to hand already at that point, he doesn't need to get his tools out, examine the lock, select the correct tool etc. as he has already done that before the video.
I would like to see him with a big bag of locks and all his tools in a box pull a random lock out of the bag and pick it. It would be interesting to see.
However, I agree that 99% of the time the lock will be simple, and it would only be worth rolling a check if there were serious consequences to failing. However, as soon as there are serious consequences, or as soon as the lock is more complex and secure, I would be asking for a check as long as there is even the slightest chance of failure.
The original question was how long it takes in combat, so we don't need to keep pointing out that you don't need to do this or that if there are no consequences.
I will still roll even if players have unlimited time to try, but the DCs are different. An ordinary lock might be DC 10 to pick in a non-combat situation, but DC 20 to do it in one action. The DC 10 already represents multiple tries, so no you can't just try again if you fail. In any real puzzle-solving situation, everyone will run out of new ideas at some point, and trying the same thing again won't get you anywhere. I will let them retry after a short rest; you know how sometimes when you take your mind off a task the solution that was evading you comes to you.
I discussed with my players (several of whom are also GMs), and we came up with a ruleset that we're going to use in our games.
Lockpicking
We have answered the question. RAW - 1 standard action, or if a thief using the fast hands class feature 1 bonus action. Anything else is homebrew.
RAW is "it takes as many actions as it specified in the description of the lock" and the fast hands feature allows replacing an action with a bonus action. A standard lock takes one action.
I asked you where in the rules it says this, and you didn't answer, so I'm not sure what you mean by "We have answered the question."
Depends how much the player of the rogue wants to focus on his/her character's a ability to lock pick. If he/her rogue is really good, it would take significantly shorter to lock pick, also vice-versa.
"If you ever ask a wizard to list the books they've read recently, prepare to be there for a solid week. " - Original.
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Bow down to Cats! (Cult of Cats)
I'm not sure if there is a specific rule about it. I certainly can't find one.
The description of a lock in equipment says "Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check." This would suggest to me that it could be done as an action, and is the closest I can find. It doesn't definitively say that it takes an action. However, combined with the thief's Fast Hands allowing it as a bonus action and general rules about use of objects, I think it's a reasonable inference.
However, unless there are specific written rules that I'm unaware of targeting lock picking which clarify it, I think we're in the realms of DMs discretion. We are inferring the rules from various sources. There is no specific action which describes picking a lock (with the exception of the Fast Hands bonus action), so it's a improvised action to be handled by the DM.
Something I've been a bit confused with resulting in my groups' rogues' mechanical manipulation generally being adjudicated on the fly, and this thread seems the place to lay it out. Rogues generally take proficiency in Thieves Tools, can even take expertise in them. Fast hands centers the rogue's lock picking and disarm traps on Sleight of Hand. Sleight of hand is a deft touch mixed with the art of misdirection, useful for picking pockets, but not really for locks, especially if you're trying to do it quickly. It just seems to punish players who want to be a "cracker" with locks and device traps by imposing a mechanic that doesn't make a lot of sense. It just seems one of those areas where the rogue isn't fully thought out or suffers a built in contradiction that should have popped up during the editorial process.
Slightly related, but just seems like a space to explore this curiosity to. How many plain Thief PCs exist in your games? Every rogue in my games to date have gone a different path.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think you're misreading something. Nothing about Fast Hands "centers the rogue's lock picking and disarm traps on Sleight of Hand."
You are right, there's a comma between sleight of hand and tool usage which for some reason I've been reading as a sleight of hand to perform tool usage. I think my misreading came from sessions I played in where the rogue might have been "fast talking" the rules and the DM letting it go. Their real life CHR check must have been high as, while I've had this stated misgiving, I sort of took that practice into my own game. Turns out may call for tool proficiency checks aren't a fix so much as actually playing RAW.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.