So I've been bouncing around this idea for a minor boss encounter in my home-brew campaign for a bunch of 5 level 4 players (a Wizard, a bard, a monk, a druid, and a sorcerer). And I was wondering if I could get some second opinions on this idea.
Here is the background:
"The party are in pursuit of some goblins that have stolen the groups wizards spell book. They have tracked the goblins to a cave that they have taken as a base only to discover that it is in fact the long forgotten keep of an illusionist wizard. They find his skeleton showing that he himself is dead but a lot of his defences are still active, fake walls, missing floors etc. In the final room they come to what looks to be a room 90ft long and 40ft wide with pillars at 10ft integers. The boss is a goblin mage who is desperate to school herself in magic, but having been rejected from every school of magic on the basis of her race, has turned to stealing books in order to learn new spells. There are no magic defences in place to defend her.
If the group decides to advance they will find that the room is not as it seems. They will find that 50ft into the room, the room veers off to the right in a perfect L shape, and that the room only appears to be stretching on because they have been looking at a 45 degree mirror that spanned along the back wall. Basically like a massive periscope the size of a room. If they decide to attack from range though they will only be hitting the mirror, which will have an armour class of 1 and hit points of 25 and when it hits 0 the mirror will shatter. But whilst its got hit points it will seem as if the mage is not effected by spells or projectiles sent at her reflection and do her no damage. If they attack she will retreat to a secret passage behind one of the pillars, meaning they have one round of combat to realise that they are attacking a mirror rather then her and she will have the opportunity to escape."
Now I've been reading the Dungeon Masters guide, and the Players hand book to see what the effects of spells would have be on a mirror and if they can still work through a reflection. Particularly enchantment spells like charm person, suggestion, or the hold person spell. Personally I would say that they don't work as in a similar instance, I would say that you can't cast these spells on someone by looking at an expert picture of them and expect it to work on them even if they are within range of your spell. Also as far as I'm aware there are no rules that say that spells act like light and therefore there's no actually reason why they should reflect off the mirror to the intended target. I would however allow any spell that acts under radiant energy as spells based on light would reflect off a mirrored surface.
Those are my thoughts but I wanted to create a thread and discussion on this principle to hear what others thought of it and work out if I had any loopholes with it.
Thanks for taking the time, I'm excited to hear your thoughts!
I actually would 100% treat mirrored reflection as being able to see the target for purposes of spells that require a target you can see. It’s not a picture of the target, it is literally the same light that would be hitting your retinas as if you were looking at the target directly.
BUT, you’d still need a clear line of effect to actually cast the spell. If the target is behind cover and you can only see them because of a mirror, you can see them but you can’t hit them, just as if they were behind an invisible wall.
I’m not aware of any spell that explicitly deals with radiant energy. Radiant damage isn’t light. It’s what earlier editions called positive energy. It “overloads the spirit with power.”
Yup. What Saga said. I would add that are a couple exceptions. I don't remember what spells they are off-hand but there are a couple that specifically say they ignore cover so I think with those couple spell you may be able to hit them even behind an invisible wall (or in this cast 90 degrees from the mirror) because you can see them.
Yup. What Saga said. I would add that are a couple exceptions. I don't remember what spells they are off-hand but there are a couple that specifically say they ignore cover so I think with those couple spell you may be able to hit them even behind an invisible wall (or in this cast 90 degrees from the mirror) because you can see them.
Yup. sacred flame is one spell but, there was not a Cleric mentioned being a party member.
Also,once they figure out the mirrors why not pull a Bruce Lee and break them as they go?
SagaTympana: First of all thanks so much for replying I really appreciate it! And I think that that is a fair comment seeing as ultimately I want this to be something the players find cool, rather then just feeling like I'm cheating them. So in this instance where the intended target is behind cover because where the players are standing as they enter the room they think that the room is stretching out in-front of them, they wouldn't be able to cast a spell like suggestion or charm person unless they have a direct line of sight to the actual person?
BTI_Brian: Thats good to know! I also wondered about some spells like for example magic missile which I know is an automatic hit. Would you say its fair to ask them and specify if they want to hit the mage image in front of them? Basically ask if they want to hit the mirror or not without giving away that they are shooting at the reflection instead of the real thing, would you say thats fair?
Templar32: Well this will be the only time I will use a mirror. I feel a little like my players are starting to get a little predictable. They see a bad guy, they attack them without thinking of negotiating with them or finding out about them. I'm wanting to give them something a little different and unexpected. Them breaking the mirror is kinda what I'm hoping they do! They go in expecting a full on boss battle, they unload their spells and projectiles in the direction of the Mage's reflection only for that image of her to shatter and the entire image of the hall in front of them to splinter like lightning before a thousand shards of glass fall to the floor revealing a grey stone wall behind it. Before its quite sunk in what has happened the Mage will take her turn where she has no interest in hanging around and grabs the book and runs away to the secret passage, and sealing it before they can catch up. I hope it will be a memorable encounter for them to look back on!
BTI_Brian: Thats good to know! I also wondered about some spells like for example magic missile which I know is an automatic hit. Would you say its fair to ask them and specify if they want to hit the mage image in front of them? Basically ask if they want to hit the mirror or not without giving away that they are shooting at the reflection instead of the real thing, would you say thats fair?
I wouldn't count magic missile as one of the exceptions. Using Saga's example of being behind an invisible wall (Jeremy Crawford uses through a closed glass window) The spell wouldn't hit them. It would hit the mirror because even though the caster can see them you still need "a clear path" therefor even though they can be seen, there is not a clear path. Like Templar highlighted Sacred Flame where it says "No benefit of cover" then I wouldn't count it. If the spell ignores cover then it doesn't need a clear path as long as you can see the target. Does that make sense?
PS. I think this is a great "Wake up call" to shake your players out of routine! I'm DM'ing a PbP where folks are going to clear out The Thieves Forest. Loosely based on The Princess Bride. I gave them several narrative pauses where they could be searching for traps... no one did so, I sprang one on them. I was like "Huh, you're going into a place called the thieves forest and you don't think there may be traps?" lol
Consider that the petrification gaze of a Medusa works on a reflection in a mirror. There could be possible exceptions for some magical effects, though not all.
Does a mirror reflect magic the way it reflects light? Can you cast magic on a target only because you can see them in a mirror?
If I understand your scenario, you have characters that will be able to see the boss in a mirror and not know they are looking through a mirror at a target around a 90 degree bend. I think if you cast a spell like magic missile or hold person, you would miss because you are aiming at a point 70 feet away (just for example) when the target is around a cornet to your left. I imagine the spell hits the mirror and then whatever substantial is behind the mirror, like a foot of stone or whatever, and it dissipates.
Casting on the real target would require that you attain a direct line of sight to the target, not the bent light of a periscope.
Your description is very interesting. I would want to sit down and draw what the reflection should look like. Then with that clear visual in front of me, I would describe it to the party. They will be freaked out when they understand what is really going on and I think they will appreciate the trick; maybe not in the moment, but later after the encounter is done.
And I also thought a mirror thwarted a medusa's gaze, which supports my thinking on reflected magic.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I would argue that, in the case of Magic Missile, if the target is still actually within the spells effective range, that the missiles would follow the curved path down the hall and strike their target. But if the target is outside of range, then they would instead impact the mirror. The entire premise of the spell in DnD terms is that it is, inherently, smart enough to strike a target around their armor, strike a target behind cover as long as it is still visible, and just generally doesn't require any kind of check, whether it be an attack roll or a save, for it to hit. The simple fact is that there is nothing in between the caster and the target in this scenario, the target is simply not where it appears to be. But you'd need to do the math on the actual range to the target, accounting for the shape of the room and it's bizarre dimensions. You only indicate that the room appears to be 50 feet, not what it's real dimensions are. So the 120 foot range of Magic Missile may or may not be enough.
I would also extend this to spells that simply strike a point in range, but are not a projectile. So things like Sacred Flame (strikes from above at the direction of the deity) should work, but not things like Fireball (caster has to actually throw it, moves to target to explode). In the case of Sacred Flame, the Deity would know exactly where where the targeted creature actually is, and they should know that their servet's intention is to hit the creature, not to strike some point behind a brick wall. Fireball on the other hand, is specifically noted as being a projectile thrown by the caster, which should absolutely impact the mirror and explode there. I'm uncertain how I'd rule for something more grey-area, like Faerie Fire. The answer would ultimately depend on whether or not The Weave can be visually reflected by a mirror or not. If it can, then Faerie Fire, an effect that simply occurs at a location with no associated projectile, would work no problem, and would affect the intended creatures. If The Weave cannot be visually reflected this way, then it should fail and strike nothing. But if that were the case, I'd assume that any creature able to perceive The Weave would also be able to determine that there is a mirror involved, rendering this entire debate irrelevant. I don't know enough about the background of DnD magic lore to answer that question, or explain away the associated problem(s).
As for other spells, particularly the hypno type control spells that require you and the target both be able to see each other... I don't see a reason why those should fail just because there's a mirror in the middle (again, correcting for actual distance rather than perceived distance). Such spells are typically relying on using magic to amplify more mundane hypnotic methods, which tend to be visual. A mirror would reflect that appropriately (if reversing it, remember that mirrors do that) and as such not stand in the way of carrying the effect to the target.
[Edit] In the case of Hold Person, specifically, I'm a little torn... The text of the spell doesn't really say whether it's a hypnotic thing (you're using magic to convince the target it's unable to move) or whether there's an actual magical force involved (you are using your magical ability to forcibly stop the target's movement). If it's the first (hypnotic) then it should work through the mirror, but if it's the second (forcible resistance) then it should fail, because the target is not where the caster thinks it is, and as such is not applying the force to anything relevant. The spell being from the school of Enchantment lends credibility to the more hypnotic line of thinking, but... Yeah, not really definitive.
There's a couple things I don't agree with in the above post. "The entire premise of the spell in DnD terms is that it is, inherently, smart enough to strike a target around their armor, strike a target behind cover as long as it is still visible, and just generally doesn't require any kind of check, whether it be an attack roll or a save, for it to hit." I don't think this is the case at all. First, almost every spell has an attack or save attached to it. Unless it's effecting the environment or yourself. I also don't think magic is smart in any way. Magic is a tool. It's wielder can be smart, the tool is just a tool. (although some divine magics would be appear to be an acception, it's still a divine force using the tool of magic) I can give an example of this. Mirror image if magic were 'smart' this spell would be useless against anything with magic ability because the 'magic' would know who to hit.
It's also been heavily discussed other places, which have come up in earlier posts that magic doesn't hit something behind cover just because you can see it, unless the spell specifies it ignores cover. (The last point is just interpretation. I think it's becoming generally accepted RAI but RAI just the same)
The reason I wouldn't allow magic missile is because it's a "creature of your choice" The caster is choosing the 'creature' in the mirror. Not the real deal. For faeire fire you're choosing an area to light up stuff within. So the area being chosen is again the mirror.
You don't have to worry about charm person, hold person or suggestion anyway because they wouldn't have the range even if they could reflect.
Anyways, that's more of my opinions. I hope that's helpful and doesn't just muddle it up more! :)
So I've been bouncing around this idea for a minor boss encounter in my home-brew campaign for a bunch of 5 level 4 players (a Wizard, a bard, a monk, a druid, and a sorcerer). And I was wondering if I could get some second opinions on this idea.
Here is the background:
"The party are in pursuit of some goblins that have stolen the groups wizards spell book. They have tracked the goblins to a cave that they have taken as a base only to discover that it is in fact the long forgotten keep of an illusionist wizard. They find his skeleton showing that he himself is dead but a lot of his defences are still active, fake walls, missing floors etc. In the final room they come to what looks to be a room 90ft long and 40ft wide with pillars at 10ft integers. The boss is a goblin mage who is desperate to school herself in magic, but having been rejected from every school of magic on the basis of her race, has turned to stealing books in order to learn new spells. There are no magic defences in place to defend her.
If the group decides to advance they will find that the room is not as it seems. They will find that 50ft into the room, the room veers off to the right in a perfect L shape, and that the room only appears to be stretching on because they have been looking at a 45 degree mirror that spanned along the back wall. Basically like a massive periscope the size of a room. If they decide to attack from range though they will only be hitting the mirror, which will have an armour class of 1 and hit points of 25 and when it hits 0 the mirror will shatter. But whilst its got hit points it will seem as if the mage is not effected by spells or projectiles sent at her reflection and do her no damage. If they attack she will retreat to a secret passage behind one of the pillars, meaning they have one round of combat to realise that they are attacking a mirror rather then her and she will have the opportunity to escape."
Now I've been reading the Dungeon Masters guide, and the Players hand book to see what the effects of spells would have be on a mirror and if they can still work through a reflection. Particularly enchantment spells like charm person, suggestion, or the hold person spell. Personally I would say that they don't work as in a similar instance, I would say that you can't cast these spells on someone by looking at an expert picture of them and expect it to work on them even if they are within range of your spell. Also as far as I'm aware there are no rules that say that spells act like light and therefore there's no actually reason why they should reflect off the mirror to the intended target. I would however allow any spell that acts under radiant energy as spells based on light would reflect off a mirrored surface.
Those are my thoughts but I wanted to create a thread and discussion on this principle to hear what others thought of it and work out if I had any loopholes with it.
Thanks for taking the time, I'm excited to hear your thoughts!
I actually would 100% treat mirrored reflection as being able to see the target for purposes of spells that require a target you can see. It’s not a picture of the target, it is literally the same light that would be hitting your retinas as if you were looking at the target directly.
BUT, you’d still need a clear line of effect to actually cast the spell. If the target is behind cover and you can only see them because of a mirror, you can see them but you can’t hit them, just as if they were behind an invisible wall.
I’m not aware of any spell that explicitly deals with radiant energy. Radiant damage isn’t light. It’s what earlier editions called positive energy. It “overloads the spirit with power.”
Yup. What Saga said. I would add that are a couple exceptions. I don't remember what spells they are off-hand but there are a couple that specifically say they ignore cover so I think with those couple spell you may be able to hit them even behind an invisible wall (or in this cast 90 degrees from the mirror) because you can see them.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
Yup. sacred flame is one spell but, there was not a Cleric mentioned being a party member.
Also,once they figure out the mirrors why not pull a Bruce Lee and break them as they go?
SagaTympana: First of all thanks so much for replying I really appreciate it! And I think that that is a fair comment seeing as ultimately I want this to be something the players find cool, rather then just feeling like I'm cheating them. So in this instance where the intended target is behind cover because where the players are standing as they enter the room they think that the room is stretching out in-front of them, they wouldn't be able to cast a spell like suggestion or charm person unless they have a direct line of sight to the actual person?
BTI_Brian: Thats good to know! I also wondered about some spells like for example magic missile which I know is an automatic hit. Would you say its fair to ask them and specify if they want to hit the mage image in front of them? Basically ask if they want to hit the mirror or not without giving away that they are shooting at the reflection instead of the real thing, would you say thats fair?
Templar32: Well this will be the only time I will use a mirror. I feel a little like my players are starting to get a little predictable. They see a bad guy, they attack them without thinking of negotiating with them or finding out about them. I'm wanting to give them something a little different and unexpected. Them breaking the mirror is kinda what I'm hoping they do! They go in expecting a full on boss battle, they unload their spells and projectiles in the direction of the Mage's reflection only for that image of her to shatter and the entire image of the hall in front of them to splinter like lightning before a thousand shards of glass fall to the floor revealing a grey stone wall behind it. Before its quite sunk in what has happened the Mage will take her turn where she has no interest in hanging around and grabs the book and runs away to the secret passage, and sealing it before they can catch up. I hope it will be a memorable encounter for them to look back on!
I wouldn't count magic missile as one of the exceptions. Using Saga's example of being behind an invisible wall (Jeremy Crawford uses through a closed glass window) The spell wouldn't hit them. It would hit the mirror because even though the caster can see them you still need "a clear path" therefor even though they can be seen, there is not a clear path. Like Templar highlighted Sacred Flame where it says "No benefit of cover" then I wouldn't count it. If the spell ignores cover then it doesn't need a clear path as long as you can see the target. Does that make sense?
You can look up Jeremy Crawford's explanation or listen here at about 5 mins in: https://media.wizards.com/2017/podcasts/dnd/DnDPodcast_01_19_2017.mp3
There is a counterpoint to his RAI by Dungeon Masters workshop that I found interesting too: http://dmsworkshop.com/2018/10/19/wall-of-force-sight-spells/
PS. I think this is a great "Wake up call" to shake your players out of routine! I'm DM'ing a PbP where folks are going to clear out The Thieves Forest. Loosely based on The Princess Bride. I gave them several narrative pauses where they could be searching for traps... no one did so, I sprang one on them. I was like "Huh, you're going into a place called the thieves forest and you don't think there may be traps?" lol
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
Consider that the petrification gaze of a Medusa works on a reflection in a mirror. There could be possible exceptions for some magical effects, though not all.
I would say anything that works by a gaze.
What?! That's not what Clash of the Titans says! LOL
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
I think there are two ideas being discussed.
Does a mirror reflect magic the way it reflects light? Can you cast magic on a target only because you can see them in a mirror?
If I understand your scenario, you have characters that will be able to see the boss in a mirror and not know they are looking through a mirror at a target around a 90 degree bend. I think if you cast a spell like magic missile or hold person, you would miss because you are aiming at a point 70 feet away (just for example) when the target is around a cornet to your left. I imagine the spell hits the mirror and then whatever substantial is behind the mirror, like a foot of stone or whatever, and it dissipates.
Casting on the real target would require that you attain a direct line of sight to the target, not the bent light of a periscope.
Your description is very interesting. I would want to sit down and draw what the reflection should look like. Then with that clear visual in front of me, I would describe it to the party. They will be freaked out when they understand what is really going on and I think they will appreciate the trick; maybe not in the moment, but later after the encounter is done.
And I also thought a mirror thwarted a medusa's gaze, which supports my thinking on reflected magic.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I would argue that, in the case of Magic Missile, if the target is still actually within the spells effective range, that the missiles would follow the curved path down the hall and strike their target. But if the target is outside of range, then they would instead impact the mirror. The entire premise of the spell in DnD terms is that it is, inherently, smart enough to strike a target around their armor, strike a target behind cover as long as it is still visible, and just generally doesn't require any kind of check, whether it be an attack roll or a save, for it to hit. The simple fact is that there is nothing in between the caster and the target in this scenario, the target is simply not where it appears to be. But you'd need to do the math on the actual range to the target, accounting for the shape of the room and it's bizarre dimensions. You only indicate that the room appears to be 50 feet, not what it's real dimensions are. So the 120 foot range of Magic Missile may or may not be enough.
I would also extend this to spells that simply strike a point in range, but are not a projectile. So things like Sacred Flame (strikes from above at the direction of the deity) should work, but not things like Fireball (caster has to actually throw it, moves to target to explode). In the case of Sacred Flame, the Deity would know exactly where where the targeted creature actually is, and they should know that their servet's intention is to hit the creature, not to strike some point behind a brick wall. Fireball on the other hand, is specifically noted as being a projectile thrown by the caster, which should absolutely impact the mirror and explode there. I'm uncertain how I'd rule for something more grey-area, like Faerie Fire. The answer would ultimately depend on whether or not The Weave can be visually reflected by a mirror or not. If it can, then Faerie Fire, an effect that simply occurs at a location with no associated projectile, would work no problem, and would affect the intended creatures. If The Weave cannot be visually reflected this way, then it should fail and strike nothing. But if that were the case, I'd assume that any creature able to perceive The Weave would also be able to determine that there is a mirror involved, rendering this entire debate irrelevant. I don't know enough about the background of DnD magic lore to answer that question, or explain away the associated problem(s).
As for other spells, particularly the hypno type control spells that require you and the target both be able to see each other... I don't see a reason why those should fail just because there's a mirror in the middle (again, correcting for actual distance rather than perceived distance). Such spells are typically relying on using magic to amplify more mundane hypnotic methods, which tend to be visual. A mirror would reflect that appropriately (if reversing it, remember that mirrors do that) and as such not stand in the way of carrying the effect to the target.
[Edit] In the case of Hold Person, specifically, I'm a little torn... The text of the spell doesn't really say whether it's a hypnotic thing (you're using magic to convince the target it's unable to move) or whether there's an actual magical force involved (you are using your magical ability to forcibly stop the target's movement). If it's the first (hypnotic) then it should work through the mirror, but if it's the second (forcible resistance) then it should fail, because the target is not where the caster thinks it is, and as such is not applying the force to anything relevant. The spell being from the school of Enchantment lends credibility to the more hypnotic line of thinking, but... Yeah, not really definitive.
There's a couple things I don't agree with in the above post. "The entire premise of the spell in DnD terms is that it is, inherently, smart enough to strike a target around their armor, strike a target behind cover as long as it is still visible, and just generally doesn't require any kind of check, whether it be an attack roll or a save, for it to hit." I don't think this is the case at all. First, almost every spell has an attack or save attached to it. Unless it's effecting the environment or yourself. I also don't think magic is smart in any way. Magic is a tool. It's wielder can be smart, the tool is just a tool. (although some divine magics would be appear to be an acception, it's still a divine force using the tool of magic) I can give an example of this. Mirror image if magic were 'smart' this spell would be useless against anything with magic ability because the 'magic' would know who to hit.
It's also been heavily discussed other places, which have come up in earlier posts that magic doesn't hit something behind cover just because you can see it, unless the spell specifies it ignores cover. (The last point is just interpretation. I think it's becoming generally accepted RAI but RAI just the same)
The reason I wouldn't allow magic missile is because it's a "creature of your choice" The caster is choosing the 'creature' in the mirror. Not the real deal. For faeire fire you're choosing an area to light up stuff within. So the area being chosen is again the mirror.
You don't have to worry about charm person, hold person or suggestion anyway because they wouldn't have the range even if they could reflect.
Anyways, that's more of my opinions. I hope that's helpful and doesn't just muddle it up more! :)
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules