Hey, I have a question that maybe you can help me with?
Is there a way to improve bossfights? Most bossfights I run just don't seem to be all that exciting. On lower levels, most bosses tend to fail their saves and are easily dispatched while they are stunned, paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated, while on higher level the players do so much damage, they kill everything within 2-3 rounds, on top of having high enough AC that they are rather difficult to hit in return, or have plenty ways to reduce any damage to the point that it doesn't even matter if they are hit (rage, uncanny dodge). For example, just yesterday I had a group of level 13 characters go up against an empyrean as their final opponent (the avatar of an enemy deity). they killed it within 3 rounds. I don't know, it just isn't very exciting or challenging if you're playing with a group that knows what they are doing.
I'm kinda stuck on what to do, so maybe you can help me how to improve?
The Reader's Digest version is, give solo monsters a bonus action, a reaction, and 3 legendary actions. He admits that most bosses only live 3-4 rounds but you can make them live a little longer, and make them more exciting, using his method. (I have not tried it yet but I am getting ready to work on a boss to fight my party when they get to level 4 and am going to use his method.)
Matt Colville’s action oriented monsters works REALLY well in my experience. I’ve been using it since he made that video and I’ve had players tell me how much more they like “boss fights” now.
For starters, nothing stops you from boosting your monster's HP pool so that the fight will go on a little longer. I tend to double boss monster's HP (roughly).
Next is the possibility to have some added mechanics to your fight. My players always like to have some kind of objective during the fight. Securing helpless bystandards for instance or stopping a device from doing something while the boss is on a ranpage. Keeping a door open or closed to keep adds at bay or making sure people can get out. You could have environmental effects to your fight like falling debris (create AOE areas that in X rounds or next round falls in said spot) forcing a position change in the players. Could be some traps are present and players need to avoid it. Maybe the floor is electrified or magically charged to created DMG zone in a checkered pattern and on each turn a color of the pattern lights up and damages players, keep them on their toes and moving during the fight.
Next, I also used Matt Colville's concept and works great! it's quite interresting of finding things your boss can do that are unique. If you find it hard to think of effects, inspire yourself from other monster's actions, legendary actions and possibly lair actions.
Finally don't be affraid to make the fight your own, if you want your boss to survive this attack or make that save, it's your choice to say they did (regardless of the die roll) as long as it benefits the enjoyment of the fight and the challenge factor, I believe it's ok to cheat the die roll here and there.
Finally don't be affraid to make the fight your own, if you want your boss to survive this attack or make that save, it's your choice to say they did (regardless of the die roll) as long as it benefits the enjoyment of the fight and the challenge factor, I believe it's ok to cheat the die roll here and there.
I'm doing public rolls. No point claiming they succeeded, when everyone can clearly see they didn't. Good points otherwise, though. I'm honestly already doing the "cutscene" events sometimes. Have the boss survive even though they should be dead already, just long enough so they can fulfill their task before dying. i feel like it's a bit cheap at times, but hey. what are you to do. Especially if they have a second phase and they would have died in the first one already^^
You don't need to cheat on the rolls. Just follow Matt's example and give the boss 1-3 "reactions" or some Legendary Actions that will help it survive.
For example, in the MM (so there is tons of precedent) high level monsters have a limited number of times where it says they can "choose to succeed at a save they failed." This is called "legendary resilience" or some hokum, but it is an actual ability, written down, not a "DM Fiat" fabrication. You would announce to the players, "OK, he's going to use one of his three "Legendary Resilience" reactions to succeed at this roll instead. Or heck, just give the villain the "luck" feat. I mean, you don't want to do this for *every* boss, but one or two of them in a campaign can have it with no problem.
Also, you can give them Legendary Actions or Reactions that can "only be used once," but still can affect things. Say a "Healing Surge" that heals XdY hp (up to you, 2d6, 3d8, etc., depending on party level) and (if you think you'll need it) removes any one "Condition" (blinded, paralyzed, poisoned, etc) -- this would allow him to fail the save, be affected by the bad thing for as much as a turn, but then on his turn or someone else's, he can shrug it off and keep fighting.
Even simple things can help. For example the lowly Goblin Chief has a great Reaction that allows him, if there is a regular goblin within 5' (i.e., adjacent) to swap places with the goblin and let the goblin take damage instead of him. Basically, he's throwing one of his minions into the line of fire. This lets the spell's full effect go off for the player, but it nails a regular goblin instead of the chief, allowing the chief to live for one more round.
Watch Colville's video -- he explains the logic of how to do this very well. Again, I haven't done it myself, but just watching his video I thought, "Man as a player I would have a blast fighting these things."
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yup. That's a great example of what I'm talking about.
It's not DM Fiat. It is a published ability. And it only happens a certain number of times so he can't just always do it. But at critical moments, you can say, "The Vampire Lestat is going to take his Legendary Action and choose to succeed against this save instead of fail." I would tell the players he can do this a limited number of times but not how many times, because I don't want them min-maxing it.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yup. That's a great example of what I'm talking about.
It's not DM Fiat. It is a published ability. And it only happens a certain number of times so he can't just always do it. But at critical moments, you can say, "The Vampire Lestat is going to take his Legendary Action and choose to succeed against this save instead of fail." I would tell the players he can do this a limited number of times but not how many times, because I don't want them min-maxing it.
This isn't a legendary action, it's an ability. Legendary actions can only be used at the end of another creature's turn, whereas the Legendary Resistance ability can be used any time.
That's not the point though. The point is that you can give bosses special abilities that help mitigate "save or suck" conditions so that they don't get one-shotted.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Legendary actions/abilities are good, but the reason they exist is because of action economy. Most bosses get torn to shreds because they get one action while a group of four players get four. Unless one action is as effective as four player actions, then the boss is boned, and the only way one action is as good as four is if the boss either has an AoE that hits all players (a four-hit action), or if they have an action that does four times the damage, or an equivalently powerful effect. These would be ludicrously unfair, especially at lower levels, where dealing forty damage is an insta-kill for any player.
The way to combat this is to increase action economy for the boss. Multi-attack can accomplish this, but multiple attacks tend to just all get focused on whoever is nearest the boss, which means the tank just gets subjected to brutal punishment all round, and you might as well have a single attack that deals quadruple damage. Legendary actions can also help, but often have similar results.
I prefer to add bodies to a boss fight. Adding a few henchmen does a lot of things. First, it does a lot more to balance the action economy, as minions can move, take bonus actions, etc. Second, it spreads out the field of combat, allowing more characters do be relevant, and to soak up the pain. Third, and most importantly, it allows the fight to be more dynamic. Each minion down allows players to breathe a sigh of relief and concentrate their focus some. If the ranger goes down, but takes away 10% of the boss's hp, who cares? You no longer have your ranger, and the boss has lost nothing. If the ranger goes down, but takes out two hobgoblins, then that's two less attackers the rest of the team has to worry about.
Another option I'd suggest is having "boss and 2-4 minions" fights instead of straight-up boss fights. It should increase the encounter duration, plus give the players a tactical choice: do they play it safe and wipe out the smaller enemies first, or do they let them do their thing while they go for the head of the snake?
Hey, I have a question that maybe you can help me with?
Is there a way to improve bossfights? Most bossfights I run just don't seem to be all that exciting. On lower levels, most bosses tend to fail their saves and are easily dispatched while they are stunned, paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated, while on higher level the players do so much damage, they kill everything within 2-3 rounds, on top of having high enough AC that they are rather difficult to hit in return, or have plenty ways to reduce any damage to the point that it doesn't even matter if they are hit (rage, uncanny dodge). For example, just yesterday I had a group of level 13 characters go up against an empyrean as their final opponent (the avatar of an enemy deity). they killed it within 3 rounds. I don't know, it just isn't very exciting or challenging if you're playing with a group that knows what they are doing.
I'm kinda stuck on what to do, so maybe you can help me how to improve?
Well, one key thing about player damage output is that it will be unduly high unless you've first drained them with a day's worth of encounters, but also a lot of bosses are pretty vanilla or poorly designed, so you might need to create custom monsters, trick monsters, false bosses (something that looks scary and gets them to unload, but is really just a decoy for the real boss; for example, a slightly disguised cloud giant), specialized lairs, or something else. Also, how many PCs do you have? The Empyrean doesn't have much in the way of area damage (just his once per day Fire Storm) and lacks good abilities for ignoring the barbarian and going over to squish the dps.
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Hey, I have a question that maybe you can help me with?
Is there a way to improve bossfights? Most bossfights I run just don't seem to be all that exciting. On lower levels, most bosses tend to fail their saves and are easily dispatched while they are stunned, paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated, while on higher level the players do so much damage, they kill everything within 2-3 rounds, on top of having high enough AC that they are rather difficult to hit in return, or have plenty ways to reduce any damage to the point that it doesn't even matter if they are hit (rage, uncanny dodge).
For example, just yesterday I had a group of level 13 characters go up against an empyrean as their final opponent (the avatar of an enemy deity). they killed it within 3 rounds.
I don't know, it just isn't very exciting or challenging if you're playing with a group that knows what they are doing.
I'm kinda stuck on what to do, so maybe you can help me how to improve?
Matt Colville has a great video about this (as usual):
The Reader's Digest version is, give solo monsters a bonus action, a reaction, and 3 legendary actions. He admits that most bosses only live 3-4 rounds but you can make them live a little longer, and make them more exciting, using his method. (I have not tried it yet but I am getting ready to work on a boss to fight my party when they get to level 4 and am going to use his method.)
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Matt Colville’s action oriented monsters works REALLY well in my experience. I’ve been using it since he made that video and I’ve had players tell me how much more they like “boss fights” now.
There are a few options in your DM toolbox!
For starters, nothing stops you from boosting your monster's HP pool so that the fight will go on a little longer. I tend to double boss monster's HP (roughly).
Next is the possibility to have some added mechanics to your fight. My players always like to have some kind of objective during the fight. Securing helpless bystandards for instance or stopping a device from doing something while the boss is on a ranpage. Keeping a door open or closed to keep adds at bay or making sure people can get out. You could have environmental effects to your fight like falling debris (create AOE areas that in X rounds or next round falls in said spot) forcing a position change in the players. Could be some traps are present and players need to avoid it. Maybe the floor is electrified or magically charged to created DMG zone in a checkered pattern and on each turn a color of the pattern lights up and damages players, keep them on their toes and moving during the fight.
Next, I also used Matt Colville's concept and works great! it's quite interresting of finding things your boss can do that are unique. If you find it hard to think of effects, inspire yourself from other monster's actions, legendary actions and possibly lair actions.
Finally don't be affraid to make the fight your own, if you want your boss to survive this attack or make that save, it's your choice to say they did (regardless of the die roll) as long as it benefits the enjoyment of the fight and the challenge factor, I believe it's ok to cheat the die roll here and there.
I'm doing public rolls. No point claiming they succeeded, when everyone can clearly see they didn't. Good points otherwise, though. I'm honestly already doing the "cutscene" events sometimes. Have the boss survive even though they should be dead already, just long enough so they can fulfill their task before dying. i feel like it's a bit cheap at times, but hey. what are you to do. Especially if they have a second phase and they would have died in the first one already^^
You don't need to cheat on the rolls. Just follow Matt's example and give the boss 1-3 "reactions" or some Legendary Actions that will help it survive.
For example, in the MM (so there is tons of precedent) high level monsters have a limited number of times where it says they can "choose to succeed at a save they failed." This is called "legendary resilience" or some hokum, but it is an actual ability, written down, not a "DM Fiat" fabrication. You would announce to the players, "OK, he's going to use one of his three "Legendary Resilience" reactions to succeed at this roll instead. Or heck, just give the villain the "luck" feat. I mean, you don't want to do this for *every* boss, but one or two of them in a campaign can have it with no problem.
Also, you can give them Legendary Actions or Reactions that can "only be used once," but still can affect things. Say a "Healing Surge" that heals XdY hp (up to you, 2d6, 3d8, etc., depending on party level) and (if you think you'll need it) removes any one "Condition" (blinded, paralyzed, poisoned, etc) -- this would allow him to fail the save, be affected by the bad thing for as much as a turn, but then on his turn or someone else's, he can shrug it off and keep fighting.
Even simple things can help. For example the lowly Goblin Chief has a great Reaction that allows him, if there is a regular goblin within 5' (i.e., adjacent) to swap places with the goblin and let the goblin take damage instead of him. Basically, he's throwing one of his minions into the line of fire. This lets the spell's full effect go off for the player, but it nails a regular goblin instead of the chief, allowing the chief to live for one more round.
Watch Colville's video -- he explains the logic of how to do this very well. Again, I haven't done it myself, but just watching his video I thought, "Man as a player I would have a blast fighting these things."
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Legendary actions are great for boss fights. Look at them. Here is an example:
Yup. That's a great example of what I'm talking about.
It's not DM Fiat. It is a published ability. And it only happens a certain number of times so he can't just always do it. But at critical moments, you can say, "The Vampire Lestat is going to take his Legendary Action and choose to succeed against this save instead of fail." I would tell the players he can do this a limited number of times but not how many times, because I don't want them min-maxing it.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
This isn't a legendary action, it's an ability. Legendary actions can only be used at the end of another creature's turn, whereas the Legendary Resistance ability can be used any time.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
That's not the point though. The point is that you can give bosses special abilities that help mitigate "save or suck" conditions so that they don't get one-shotted.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
And totally blocks the Divination and/or Chrono Wizard "auto-fail' abilities
Legendary actions/abilities are good, but the reason they exist is because of action economy. Most bosses get torn to shreds because they get one action while a group of four players get four. Unless one action is as effective as four player actions, then the boss is boned, and the only way one action is as good as four is if the boss either has an AoE that hits all players (a four-hit action), or if they have an action that does four times the damage, or an equivalently powerful effect. These would be ludicrously unfair, especially at lower levels, where dealing forty damage is an insta-kill for any player.
The way to combat this is to increase action economy for the boss. Multi-attack can accomplish this, but multiple attacks tend to just all get focused on whoever is nearest the boss, which means the tank just gets subjected to brutal punishment all round, and you might as well have a single attack that deals quadruple damage. Legendary actions can also help, but often have similar results.
I prefer to add bodies to a boss fight. Adding a few henchmen does a lot of things. First, it does a lot more to balance the action economy, as minions can move, take bonus actions, etc. Second, it spreads out the field of combat, allowing more characters do be relevant, and to soak up the pain. Third, and most importantly, it allows the fight to be more dynamic. Each minion down allows players to breathe a sigh of relief and concentrate their focus some. If the ranger goes down, but takes away 10% of the boss's hp, who cares? You no longer have your ranger, and the boss has lost nothing. If the ranger goes down, but takes out two hobgoblins, then that's two less attackers the rest of the team has to worry about.
Another option I'd suggest is having "boss and 2-4 minions" fights instead of straight-up boss fights. It should increase the encounter duration, plus give the players a tactical choice: do they play it safe and wipe out the smaller enemies first, or do they let them do their thing while they go for the head of the snake?
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Well, one key thing about player damage output is that it will be unduly high unless you've first drained them with a day's worth of encounters, but also a lot of bosses are pretty vanilla or poorly designed, so you might need to create custom monsters, trick monsters, false bosses (something that looks scary and gets them to unload, but is really just a decoy for the real boss; for example, a slightly disguised cloud giant), specialized lairs, or something else. Also, how many PCs do you have? The Empyrean doesn't have much in the way of area damage (just his once per day Fire Storm) and lacks good abilities for ignoring the barbarian and going over to squish the dps.