very confused about the use of NPCs made with the character creator for combat. I want to roll a monk for a boss fight for my players, but, I have no idea what level to make him to be balanced for the group. The DM guide offers advice on this, but just has a guide for"monsters" which aren't as complex as NPCs rolled through the character creator.
It says to add some hit points and AC to match some of the charts, but does that drastically alter the monk I'm making? Halp!
From what I've experianced and ran, CR works for NPC's just as well as it does for creatures. A wizard outta the book with a CR of 8 will challenge a party of four lvl 8 characters.
I believe Volo's has a monk NPC (call martial artist are w/e) in the back you can use as a base for a CR 4. If he needs to be bigger, look at the monk class and maybe give him a couple of abilities from their that are combat specific. Give him an HP hike, sure. AC can get bumped too.
Aside from that, their are other ways to make a boss fight more challenging without altering the boss himself. Will we have other students/fighters by his side? Will there be obsticles or traps in his lair? Will getting to him take the players through some sort of whittling down? My first thought is the classic blind monk who extinguishes all light in the room so eveyone is juat as blind as he is, giving him a certain advantage (against all without dark vision in this case). Think about what can make the fight itself more difficult aside from the adversary.
If you want to go through all the class features and levels to build your NPC (which I actually advise not to do - it takes much less time to just build a monster and assign a handful of traits that meaningfully emulate the class you envision for the NPC, like all of the NPC-type monsters in the Monster Manual and Volo's Guide to Monsters, and results in a less cluttered block of stats so it is easier to actually utilize), you can calculate CR after the fact by following the steps in the DMG.
They basically boil down to figuring out Defensive CR (by checking the effective HP of the character against the chart, and adjusting if effective AC is noticeably different from that on the same row of the chart), figuring out Offensive CR (by calculating average damage - over the first 3 rounds of combat if it is variable because of limited used powers - and adjusting if attack bonus/saving throw DC (whichever is more important in determining damage output) is noticeably different from that on the same row of the chart), and then averaging the two for the "final" CR (with "final" in quotes because it's not actually final, but you won't know if it needs to be shifted up, down, or not at all, until you actually use the stats in combat and see how they perform).
I agree that building an NPC from scratch like you would a PC is time consuming and unnecessary (and probably leads to suboptimal results anyway). This is why tools like rpg tinker are great for making NPCs. It does all the hard work for you and you can just tweak as necessary.
You can also find automatic calculators online that help you figure out CR based on damage output, defensive abilities, and so on. So if you do build a monster or NPC from scratch, it's thankfully not terribly difficult to figure out their CR if you don't want to do the calculations by hand. (The process for figuring out an NPC's CR should be the same as a monster's, so even if you build it from scratch the same calculations will work).
Appreciate the responses guys. I wanted to have my group of level ones fight a monk as a boss for their first du vein, but, maybe I should push that encounter to later in the campaign when I can pull something straight from the book. Right off the cuff, it seems like a lvl 4 monk would be a perfect challenge, but, I could be way off.
Appreciate the responses guys. I wanted to have my group of level ones fight a monk as a boss for their first du vein, but, maybe I should push that encounter to later in the campaign when I can pull something straight from the book. Right off the cuff, it seems like a lvl 4 monk would be a perfect challenge, but, I could be way off.
thanks for all the input!
4th-level monk, human, Standard Array, optimized, Way of the Open Hand, and a quarterstaff. Built exactly like a PC. 18 Dex, 16 Wis, 12-13 Con. Assume it uses Flurry of Blows.
27 HP and AC 17 give a defensive CR of 1/2.
Average damage is 1d8+2d4+12 at +6 to hit. Offensive CR 4. . .
CR 2, not counting Open Hand Technique; that would probably put it at CR 3.
3rd-level monk. Same stuff. Lose 3 damage, 6 HP, 1 point of AC, and 1 point of to-hit bonus. Defensive CR 1/4; offensive CR 3; CR 1, not counting Open Hand Technique; probably CR 2.
4th-level monk, human, Standard Array, optimized, Way of the Open Hand, and a quarterstaff. Built exactly like a PC. 18 Dex, 16 Wis, 12-13 Con. Assume it uses Flurry of Blows. 27 HP and AC 17 give a defensive CR of 1/2.
27 HP and AC 17 give a defensive CR of 1/2.
Average damage is 1d8+2d4+12 at +6 to hit. Offensive CR 4. . .
CR 2, not counting Open Hand Technique; that would probably put it at CR 3.
3rd-level monk. Same stuff. Lose 3 damage, 6 HP, 1 point of AC, and 1 point of to-hit bonus. Defensive CR 1/4; offensive CR 3; CR 1, not counting Open Hand Technique; probably CR 2.
I really appreciate you taking the time to run those numbers for me. Thank you. The only thing I can't figure out is how to get average damage.
I don't really know how to calculate that on any creature actually...
4th-level monk, human, Standard Array, optimized, Way of the Open Hand, and a quarterstaff. Built exactly like a PC. 18 Dex, 16 Wis, 12-13 Con. Assume it uses Flurry of Blows. 27 HP and AC 17 give a defensive CR of 1/2.
27 HP and AC 17 give a defensive CR of 1/2.
Average damage is 1d8+2d4+12 at +6 to hit. Offensive CR 4. . .
CR 2, not counting Open Hand Technique; that would probably put it at CR 3.
3rd-level monk. Same stuff. Lose 3 damage, 6 HP, 1 point of AC, and 1 point of to-hit bonus. Defensive CR 1/4; offensive CR 3; CR 1, not counting Open Hand Technique; probably CR 2.
I really appreciate you taking the time to run those numbers for me. Thank you. The only thing I can't figure out is how to get average damage.
I don't really know how to calculate that on any creature actually...
1d4=2.5; 1d6=3.5; 1d8=4.5; 1d10=5.5; 1d12=6.5; 1d20=10.5. Assume every attack hits and every target fails any saving throws it makes. If it has multiple possible attack patterns, use the most damaging option or options over three rounds. I'm not sure about recharging abilities, but I would guess that you assume Recharge 5-6 or less powers don't recharge and Recharge 4-6 or more powers recharge once. Assume area-effect powers hit two targets. For things that trigger when the monster gets hit, assume it takes one melee attack per round. Don't forget to account for things like auras, lair actions, legendary actions, and reactions.
If I missed anything, look in the DM's Guide or just ask.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Hey everyone,
very confused about the use of NPCs made with the character creator for combat. I want to roll a monk for a boss fight for my players, but, I have no idea what level to make him to be balanced for the group. The DM guide offers advice on this, but just has a guide for"monsters" which aren't as complex as NPCs rolled through the character creator.
It says to add some hit points and AC to match some of the charts, but does that drastically alter the monk I'm making? Halp!
thanks all.
From what I've experianced and ran, CR works for NPC's just as well as it does for creatures. A wizard outta the book with a CR of 8 will challenge a party of four lvl 8 characters.
I believe Volo's has a monk NPC (call martial artist are w/e) in the back you can use as a base for a CR 4. If he needs to be bigger, look at the monk class and maybe give him a couple of abilities from their that are combat specific. Give him an HP hike, sure. AC can get bumped too.
Aside from that, their are other ways to make a boss fight more challenging without altering the boss himself. Will we have other students/fighters by his side? Will there be obsticles or traps in his lair? Will getting to him take the players through some sort of whittling down? My first thought is the classic blind monk who extinguishes all light in the room so eveyone is juat as blind as he is, giving him a certain advantage (against all without dark vision in this case). Think about what can make the fight itself more difficult aside from the adversary.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
If you want to go through all the class features and levels to build your NPC (which I actually advise not to do - it takes much less time to just build a monster and assign a handful of traits that meaningfully emulate the class you envision for the NPC, like all of the NPC-type monsters in the Monster Manual and Volo's Guide to Monsters, and results in a less cluttered block of stats so it is easier to actually utilize), you can calculate CR after the fact by following the steps in the DMG.
They basically boil down to figuring out Defensive CR (by checking the effective HP of the character against the chart, and adjusting if effective AC is noticeably different from that on the same row of the chart), figuring out Offensive CR (by calculating average damage - over the first 3 rounds of combat if it is variable because of limited used powers - and adjusting if attack bonus/saving throw DC (whichever is more important in determining damage output) is noticeably different from that on the same row of the chart), and then averaging the two for the "final" CR (with "final" in quotes because it's not actually final, but you won't know if it needs to be shifted up, down, or not at all, until you actually use the stats in combat and see how they perform).
I agree that building an NPC from scratch like you would a PC is time consuming and unnecessary (and probably leads to suboptimal results anyway). This is why tools like rpg tinker are great for making NPCs. It does all the hard work for you and you can just tweak as necessary.
You can also find automatic calculators online that help you figure out CR based on damage output, defensive abilities, and so on. So if you do build a monster or NPC from scratch, it's thankfully not terribly difficult to figure out their CR if you don't want to do the calculations by hand. (The process for figuring out an NPC's CR should be the same as a monster's, so even if you build it from scratch the same calculations will work).
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Appreciate the responses guys. I wanted to have my group of level ones fight a monk as a boss for their first du vein, but, maybe I should push that encounter to later in the campaign when I can pull something straight from the book. Right off the cuff, it seems like a lvl 4 monk would be a perfect challenge, but, I could be way off.
thanks for all the input!
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Really appreciate it. Thank you!