So why not nerf fighters to not have action surge and limit to two attacks and not a max of 4 because other classes only get 2? Why not change every attack and spell to have the exact same damage output so it’s all fair across the board? If it’s an even linear progression you desire across all classes the this isn’t the game for you. Wizards and other classes have their peaks an led valleys, it’s the design of the game. At 1-4 martial classes far outpace casters, save a moon Druid at 2 which is by far the strongest at that level. Then martial classes get a second attack a further jump ahead save for one or 2 spells that can do massive damage, but only a couple times. Embrace the power jump you get at 5 as a caster with better spells and if you are a martial class, learn more about your class and use better tactics to be more effective.
The problem with Fireball is that it's such an immense upgrade. A fighter gets double damage going from level 4 to level 5. A wizard (going from Shatter to Fireball) gets double damage, 2.5x range, and 4x affected area.
Arguably this is just a sign that level 2 attack spells are bad, though the raw damage is on par with fighter damage per attack, but there's also that the rules don't seem to place any value on the size of the affected area (Lightning Bolt is only 500 square feet, Fireball is 1,256). This is equally a problem for monsters, while it's legitimate to figure a 15' cone will only hit two PCs, a 60' cone is rather likely to hit more than that.
The problem with Fireball is that it's such an immense upgrade. A fighter gets double damage going from level 4 to level 5. A wizard (going from Shatter to Fireball) gets double damage, 2.5x range, and 4x affected area.
Arguably this is just a sign that level 2 attack spells are bad, though the raw damage is on par with fighter damage per attack, but there's also that the rules don't seem to place any value on the size of the affected area (Lightning Bolt is only 500 square feet, Fireball is 1,256). This is equally a problem for monsters, while it's legitimate to figure a 15' cone will only hit two PCs, a 60' cone is rather likely to hit more than that.
Spell slots are a limited resource though.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The problem with Fireball is that it's such an immense upgrade. A fighter gets double damage going from level 4 to level 5. A wizard (going from Shatter to Fireball) gets double damage, 2.5x range, and 4x affected area.
Arguably this is just a sign that level 2 attack spells are bad, though the raw damage is on par with fighter damage per attack, but there's also that the rules don't seem to place any value on the size of the affected area (Lightning Bolt is only 500 square feet, Fireball is 1,256). This is equally a problem for monsters, while it's legitimate to figure a 15' cone will only hit two PCs, a 60' cone is rather likely to hit more than that.
Spell slots are a limited resource though.
Which is why it's fine for it to be better than fighter basic attacks, but that wasn't even what I was talking about -- I was mostly comparing its potency to lower level wizard spells.
But if we want to talk about fighter comparisons: a fighter's limited resource is Action Surge -- he's going to get about as many of them per day as the wizard gets top level spells.
At level 5, the fighter might or might not have a +1 weapon, but we'll give him one. This means his damage per hit is 9.5 for an archer, 11.5 for a dueling fighter, 13.3 for a great weapon fighter, and in an action surge round you can figure four attacks of which 3 hit, so damage is 28.5 for the archer, 34.5 for dueling fighter, 40 for the great weapon fighter.
Now, the fireball averages 28, probably with a save DC of 15; if we assume 40% of targets save (average of +2 Dex save) the average per target is 22.4, meaning he's ahead of any fighter if he hits two targets. Of course, he's a ranged combat (best comparison the archer) but much squishier (lower hp, worse AC) so he should have more damage, plus damage spreading is generally less useful than focus fire, so a total damage of 56 (twice the archer) seems about right; if your average fireball hits 2-3 targets, it's fine.
Fireball can potentially hit 50+ targets, and has a good chance of hitting 8+ -- unless the DM just doesn't use that type of encounter.
Change fireball to a 10' radius and leave its damage unchanged and it's fine. The problem is its combination of damage and size.
The problem with Fireball is that it's such an immense upgrade. A fighter gets double damage going from level 4 to level 5. A wizard (going from Shatter to Fireball) gets double damage, 2.5x range, and 4x affected area.
Arguably this is just a sign that level 2 attack spells are bad, though the raw damage is on par with fighter damage per attack, but there's also that the rules don't seem to place any value on the size of the affected area (Lightning Bolt is only 500 square feet, Fireball is 1,256). This is equally a problem for monsters, while it's legitimate to figure a 15' cone will only hit two PCs, a 60' cone is rather likely to hit more than that.
Spell slots are a limited resource though.
Which is why it's fine for it to be better than fighter basic attacks, but that wasn't even what I was talking about -- I was mostly comparing its potency to lower level wizard spells.
But if we want to talk about fighter comparisons: a fighter's limited resource is Action Surge -- he's going to get about as many of them per day as the wizard gets top level spells.
At level 5, the fighter might or might not have a +1 weapon, but we'll give him one. This means his damage per hit is 9.5 for an archer, 11.5 for a dueling fighter, 13.3 for a great weapon fighter, and in an action surge round you can figure four attacks of which 3 hit, so damage is 28.5 for the archer, 34.5 for dueling fighter, 40 for the great weapon fighter.
Now, the fireball averages 28, probably with a save DC of 15; if we assume 40% of targets save (average of +2 Dex save) the average per target is 22.4, meaning he's ahead of any fighter if he hits two targets. Of course, he's a ranged combat (best comparison the archer) but much squishier (lower hp, worse AC) so he should have more damage, plus damage spreading is generally less useful than focus fire, so a total damage of 56 (twice the archer) seems about right; if your average fireball hits 2-3 targets, it's fine.
Fireball can potentially hit 50+ targets, and has a good chance of hitting 8+ -- unless the DM just doesn't use that type of encounter.
Change fireball to a 10' radius and leave its damage unchanged and it's fine. The problem is its combination of damage and size.
All relevant points. However, fire damage is commonly resisted. Still, shooting a giant blast of fire is going to be more effecting than trying to cut someone up with sword.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
All relevant points. However, fire damage is commonly resisted. Still, shooting a giant blast of fire is going to be more effecting than trying to cut someone up with sword.
This is D&D, realism is irrelevant. 5th level wizard features should be balanced against 5th level fighter features.
That's true for Table which place a high priority on Rules, and Rule balance.
There's nothing wrong with that what-so-ever, but a Table which prioritizes Verisimilitude ( or Story, or Character, etc. ), might view it differently.
We're not all trying to get to the same place, so the optimum way to get there won't be the same :)
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The first time my wizard cast fireball and fried a bunch of bad guys was one of my most fun moments playing D&D. The whole point is to have fun, right? Fireball doesn't work for every situation, but if it does work it's a blast (so to speak). If I was playing at your table and you nerfed fireball, especially mid-campaign, I'd be really frustrated and tempted to quit your game, tbh, because I'd feel like you were trying to take away my character's chance to have those occasional moments when he does something really cool.
Not to mention a wizard is sooooo much more squishy than a fighter. Why would anyone play the class if damage output was even across the board but one class gets a third less health and can't wear armor? Throw in spell slots that are finite against a fighter than can swing all day long and it would completely unbalance the pros and cons of the classes. Hey you can do massive damage BUT its only as long as you have the slots and you can get wrecked if someone gets close. Fireball is fine and doesn't need any tweaks.
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So why not nerf fighters to not have action surge and limit to two attacks and not a max of 4 because other classes only get 2? Why not change every attack and spell to have the exact same damage output so it’s all fair across the board? If it’s an even linear progression you desire across all classes the this isn’t the game for you. Wizards and other classes have their peaks an led valleys, it’s the design of the game. At 1-4 martial classes far outpace casters, save a moon Druid at 2 which is by far the strongest at that level. Then martial classes get a second attack a further jump ahead save for one or 2 spells that can do massive damage, but only a couple times. Embrace the power jump you get at 5 as a caster with better spells and if you are a martial class, learn more about your class and use better tactics to be more effective.
The problem with Fireball is that it's such an immense upgrade. A fighter gets double damage going from level 4 to level 5. A wizard (going from Shatter to Fireball) gets double damage, 2.5x range, and 4x affected area.
Arguably this is just a sign that level 2 attack spells are bad, though the raw damage is on par with fighter damage per attack, but there's also that the rules don't seem to place any value on the size of the affected area (Lightning Bolt is only 500 square feet, Fireball is 1,256). This is equally a problem for monsters, while it's legitimate to figure a 15' cone will only hit two PCs, a 60' cone is rather likely to hit more than that.
Spell slots are a limited resource though.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Which is why it's fine for it to be better than fighter basic attacks, but that wasn't even what I was talking about -- I was mostly comparing its potency to lower level wizard spells.
But if we want to talk about fighter comparisons: a fighter's limited resource is Action Surge -- he's going to get about as many of them per day as the wizard gets top level spells.
At level 5, the fighter might or might not have a +1 weapon, but we'll give him one. This means his damage per hit is 9.5 for an archer, 11.5 for a dueling fighter, 13.3 for a great weapon fighter, and in an action surge round you can figure four attacks of which 3 hit, so damage is 28.5 for the archer, 34.5 for dueling fighter, 40 for the great weapon fighter.
Now, the fireball averages 28, probably with a save DC of 15; if we assume 40% of targets save (average of +2 Dex save) the average per target is 22.4, meaning he's ahead of any fighter if he hits two targets. Of course, he's a ranged combat (best comparison the archer) but much squishier (lower hp, worse AC) so he should have more damage, plus damage spreading is generally less useful than focus fire, so a total damage of 56 (twice the archer) seems about right; if your average fireball hits 2-3 targets, it's fine.
Fireball can potentially hit 50+ targets, and has a good chance of hitting 8+ -- unless the DM just doesn't use that type of encounter.
Change fireball to a 10' radius and leave its damage unchanged and it's fine. The problem is its combination of damage and size.
All relevant points. However, fire damage is commonly resisted. Still, shooting a giant blast of fire is going to be more effecting than trying to cut someone up with sword.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
This is D&D, realism is irrelevant. 5th level wizard features should be balanced against 5th level fighter features.
That's true for Table which place a high priority on Rules, and Rule balance.
There's nothing wrong with that what-so-ever, but a Table which prioritizes Verisimilitude ( or Story, or Character, etc. ), might view it differently.
We're not all trying to get to the same place, so the optimum way to get there won't be the same :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
The first time my wizard cast fireball and fried a bunch of bad guys was one of my most fun moments playing D&D. The whole point is to have fun, right? Fireball doesn't work for every situation, but if it does work it's a blast (so to speak). If I was playing at your table and you nerfed fireball, especially mid-campaign, I'd be really frustrated and tempted to quit your game, tbh, because I'd feel like you were trying to take away my character's chance to have those occasional moments when he does something really cool.
Not to mention a wizard is sooooo much more squishy than a fighter. Why would anyone play the class if damage output was even across the board but one class gets a third less health and can't wear armor? Throw in spell slots that are finite against a fighter than can swing all day long and it would completely unbalance the pros and cons of the classes. Hey you can do massive damage BUT its only as long as you have the slots and you can get wrecked if someone gets close. Fireball is fine and doesn't need any tweaks.