I have plans for my first campaign,but I want some advice on what level to start with? Should I go with the obvious choice of "level ones meet in tavern" or should I do what Matt Mercer did with the mighty nien and start with level two?
Well, definitely not two. I mean, if Matt Mercer has some reason that he wrote down somewhere, I'd read it, but until then, it feels arbitrary and accomplishes nothing. (I should clarify here that there's nothing wrong with starting at some arbitrary level that accomplishes nothing, it's just not interesting to talk about. You're asking about reasons, and I don't think there's any reason for 2nd level as a starting point).
I started my current game at 1st level for the obvious reason: that's the beginning.
The only other option I'd consider (if the intent is that the campaign start with fresh adventurers) is 3rd, because that's the point at which everyone has their subclass. It makes sense to me that some groups may want their brand new characters to already have their subclasses, especially if the subclasses are things they imagine their characters have always had (a beastmaster's animal companion, for example).
I start my players at level 5, the way 5th edition is set up you don't really become your intended class till 3rd level, So by 5th they can have some experience, decent hit points, and some Abilities/Spells to work with.
Level 1 is a great start for newer players as it is, well the beginning. I can understand starting at level 2 as well; most classes gain a major feature that further distinguishes them from one another (Druids Wild Shape, Wizards Arcane Tradition, Warlocks Eldritch Invocations, Monks Ki, etc...).
My personal favorite start is at level 3 as all major sub classes are established for all classes by that level, and as a DM, the encounter options increase wildly when your party can take on more than just your common bandits or goblins, and traps are less likely to oneshot a player.
Its really a matter of what you are comfortable running and your players are comfortable playing. If you are new (ish) to DMing or they are new (ish) to the game, I would keep the level start at 1.
"Begin at the beginning. Go on until you reach the end. Then stop." The easiest place to start is level 1. This is especially good for new players as it gives them time to learn what their characters can do. You don't want to overwhelm a new player. However...
Do remember that first level characters are 'squishy'. They can be killed pretty easily. Two easy ways to compensate for this are to either give them a few healing potions, (I had my players do their first mission working for the High Scholar -- cleric to the god of knowledge, who wanted some stolen documents retrieved.)
The other idea, is basically what Matt Mercer did with the second Critical Role campaign. As part of character creation, you run a short encounter for small sub groups of your party. (In this case, I believe that Fjord, Jester and Beau had helped some local fishermen. They received their pay in the inn, witnessed by the other characters.) This has two advantages. It gives the characters a connection to at least one other person in the party, and it gives you a reason to start you main campaign at level 2 or higher.
...and Yes, I still consider level 2 or 3 to be "the beginning." Sorcerers will have chosen bloodlines and Clerics domains, but most other classes will not select a focus such as a school. specialization, archetype, circle, tradition, college, path, etc until this point.
Normally I will try to start at 1st because it gives more opportunities to build the character. I put in more roleplaying in the first 3 levels and less combat to make up for the squishy low level characters.
I see starting at higher levels fine though. Sometimes the story requires more power. Fighting giants at 1st is a generally losing proposition. You can only scale things up so much before your players wonder why the giants sent orcs first instead of the fire giants.
That sort of thing just needs to start with higher levels. I had done that a lot when we would get the old modules. When my friend got i3 to i5 compiled modules we had to create at 5 or 6 level. Still had fun, but lost a little to the roleplaying aspect. That was our fault though. We could have put 8n more work, but this was playing in high school over weekends.
I would start at level 1 the first time you're running the game. It won't stay that way for very long anyway (it takes an average of 12 medium encounters to go from 1-2, and the same from 2-3. It takes 24 from 3-4).
I have plans for my first campaign,but I want some advice on what level to start with? Should I go with the obvious choice of "level ones meet in tavern" or should I do what Matt Mercer did with the mighty nien and start with level two?
Did he start at level 2 though?
Yes, that's where the show starts, on episode 1, the day all the characters meet, they are level 2. But very clearly from that episode, there were 3 groups of characters who already knew each other: Nott/Caleb, Molly/Yasha, and Jester/Fjord/Beau. Additionally, in the first scene with Jester, Fjord, and Beau (in the tavern), some townsfolk come in and give them a monetary reward for favors done for the town by that group. And that group also knew a couple of people from what appeared to have been a "previous adventure" they'd had in the town.
Now, maybe they just wrote that stuff out with Matt. But I always had the impression that he had done a private session with each group (kind of like three "session 0s") before the start, to get everything worked out and establish what they knew about each other. They would not have taped this, because the opening episode was, in part, about revealing "who is Sam going to play this season?" and so forth. And that would have been spoilers. And again, maybe they didn't do anything before the started episode 1... but I always had the impression that they'd done a 'level 1' session with Matt in smaller groups, and then he had leveled them to 2, and then they shot the 1st episode.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
With a new DM, or new Players ( even if only some of the Players are new ), I'd start with level 1. As Pantagruel666 points out, the first couple of levels don't last very long anyways.
With a seasoned table, I might skip ahead to level 3, as that's where a lot of interesting class abilities start to kick in, but that might be a lot for someone who is new to RPGs.
As a note, I don't think Matt Mercer started the current campaign at level 2 - but their first sessions were "off camera" individual/sub-group one-shot adventures. Even a one-shot like that is probably enough to boost a Character from level 1 to level 2.
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I start campaigns at two levels in 5e- level 1 and level 3. Occasionally for an experienced group, I'll start higher if people want that. Let me explain why I do these two options:
Level 1- I start parties with first time players at level 1. I usually have players level up every session until level 3, when things slow down, unless the group is having difficulty learning mechanics and class features. Level 1 is pretty tedious for experienced players, but it keeps things mostly simple for first time players, with some classes still being quite involved. It generally helps newbies and you don't have to kill time there. That said, level 1 and 2 are kind of annoying to DM because player hit points are so low a bad toss of the dice knocks players into death saves, so I don't keep them there long.
Level 3- All classes have their archetypes by level 3, meaning that things are quite balanced. Level 1 and Level 2 tend to be skewed towards classes that have their archetypes, and it also means that some characters will start very generic. By starting at level 3, characters can already have their archetypes and be given appropriate backstories and designs. They're also usually durable enough to survive at least one bad roll, so that's easier to run without BS player deaths.
That said, if a group wants to do a high level campaign, I don't mind that, but only if they are already experienced. I usually wouldn't start any higher than level 10 for a campaign, but I'd do higher for one shots if people are interested. One of the problems with high level campaigns starting too high is that they tend to be theory crafted, and then you've made too many choices and can't adapt to the glaring flaws in practice. But, for veteran players, it can be fun to give these characters a spin.
If you're DM'ing for the first time, start at level 1. It's safer to do so, because DM'ing requires you to be familiar with your players' characters along with all the other things you need to know, and it's nice to be able to quickly review their characters. Just remember that enemies do a lot of damage relative to level 1 health point values, so don't swarm players too hard.
I start my campaigns at level 1. It lets the character develop from the beginning.
However, I completely understand starting at level 2. The reason to start at level 2 is simply the extra hit points (and some additional abilities). Level 1 characters are very vulnerable to random critical hits. If a character starts at 8 hit points (a wizard or sorcerer with 14 con for example), then they instantly die if they take enough damage to get to -8 hit points in one attack.An attack doing 16 hit points of damage would kill them instantly even if they are undamaged. If they have 2 hit points after taking some damage then 10 more hit points in one attack instantly kills them. It isn't much fun for most characters to have their character die and there are a lot of low level monsters that can do d8 + X of damage. A crit from one of these combined with a high damage roll kills the character.
However, the same level 2 character would have 14 hit points (taking the average on a d6 which is 4 hit points rounded up). With 14 starting hit points they have to go to -14 to instantly die. The attacker needs to do 28 hit points of damage in one hit to instantly kill the character. This is FAR less common when facing the typical tier 1 monsters even on a crit. Furthermore, even at 2 hit points they need to take 16 more to kill them. Instead of a regular hit killing them, it probably requires a crit with a good damage roll.
Anyway, the DM needs to be aware of how squishy first level characters are, present them with appropriate foes, and advance them to level 2 reasonably quickly so that they stand less chance of being instantly killed. I'd still start them at level 1 for the experience since it is fun to learn the character as you go along (and by 3rd level the characters have picked up a lot of abilities) but just be careful with the adventures you throw at them, let them see how risky it is.
They did start at 1, just did some stuff in their individual groups before the first show. Starting higher than 1 depends on the experience of your players. If they are new, absolutely level 1! If they have played multiple characters past multiple tiers and know the game well, then I would start at 3 at the highest. That is when classes really start getting their own flavor whereas level 1 and 2 is more about game mechanics and knowing how things work.
All my campaigns start at level 3: allows characters to enter more customized and powerful enough to fight tough things right away - making the fights more exciting!
I start my players at level 1 when it comes to long term campaigns. This gives them time to develop their characters and even grow more attached to them. I also feel that I am sort of cheating the players to some degree. Another thing that I like to do is start everyone at level 1 and then set up a one shot for each player in the campaign giving them a chance to develop their character that way without any other input. Actually fun to do. Yeah I know. Its only one level but a lot can happen in one level. With one shots levels can vary when not related to a main campaign.
I have plans for my first campaign,but I want some advice on what level to start with? Should I go with the obvious choice of "level ones meet in tavern" or should I do what Matt Mercer did with the mighty nien and start with level two?
Advice is welcome and encouraged
From what I gathered, Matt Mercer had small pre-stream rounds with the players that started together (Nott + Caleb / Fjord + Beau + Jester / Yasha + Molly) bringing them to level 2 and forging the first bonds between the characters. So, that was something like a Session 0.5.
I for myself start with level 1 with the players, because I like to add the way to the Subclasses as part of the story for my players and roleplay their ascend to their specialization.
I've started my group at 1, 3 and 4 :P. I have preferred the higher level as it makes more sense for most of my characters backstory. I really don't get how a level 1 fighter has a background of a soldier for a decade but is still lv 1 ...
I wouldn't rule out starting them higher either - it depends on the story I want to tell. If I want them to go dragon slaying I'm not gonna start them at level 1 and wait 6 months for them to be ready!
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I have plans for my first campaign,but I want some advice on what level to start with? Should I go with the obvious choice of "level ones meet in tavern" or should I do what Matt Mercer did with the mighty nien and start with level two?
Advice is welcome and encouraged
Well, definitely not two. I mean, if Matt Mercer has some reason that he wrote down somewhere, I'd read it, but until then, it feels arbitrary and accomplishes nothing. (I should clarify here that there's nothing wrong with starting at some arbitrary level that accomplishes nothing, it's just not interesting to talk about. You're asking about reasons, and I don't think there's any reason for 2nd level as a starting point).
I started my current game at 1st level for the obvious reason: that's the beginning.
The only other option I'd consider (if the intent is that the campaign start with fresh adventurers) is 3rd, because that's the point at which everyone has their subclass. It makes sense to me that some groups may want their brand new characters to already have their subclasses, especially if the subclasses are things they imagine their characters have always had (a beastmaster's animal companion, for example).
I start my players at level 5, the way 5th edition is set up you don't really become your intended class till 3rd level, So by 5th they can have some experience, decent hit points, and some Abilities/Spells to work with.
Level 1 is a great start for newer players as it is, well the beginning. I can understand starting at level 2 as well; most classes gain a major feature that further distinguishes them from one another (Druids Wild Shape, Wizards Arcane Tradition, Warlocks Eldritch Invocations, Monks Ki, etc...).
My personal favorite start is at level 3 as all major sub classes are established for all classes by that level, and as a DM, the encounter options increase wildly when your party can take on more than just your common bandits or goblins, and traps are less likely to oneshot a player.
Its really a matter of what you are comfortable running and your players are comfortable playing. If you are new (ish) to DMing or they are new (ish) to the game, I would keep the level start at 1.
If this is your first campaign, and if you have any new players, start with Level 1.
Fewer things to keep track of, and you get to ease into all the roles.
"Begin at the beginning. Go on until you reach the end. Then stop."
The easiest place to start is level 1. This is especially good for new players as it gives them time to learn what their characters can do. You don't want to overwhelm a new player.
However...
Do remember that first level characters are 'squishy'. They can be killed pretty easily. Two easy ways to compensate for this are to either give them a few healing potions, (I had my players do their first mission working for the High Scholar -- cleric to the god of knowledge, who wanted some stolen documents retrieved.)
The other idea, is basically what Matt Mercer did with the second Critical Role campaign. As part of character creation, you run a short encounter for small sub groups of your party. (In this case, I believe that Fjord, Jester and Beau had helped some local fishermen. They received their pay in the inn, witnessed by the other characters.) This has two advantages. It gives the characters a connection to at least one other person in the party, and it gives you a reason to start you main campaign at level 2 or higher.
...and Yes, I still consider level 2 or 3 to be "the beginning." Sorcerers will have chosen bloodlines and Clerics domains, but most other classes will not select a focus such as a school. specialization, archetype, circle, tradition, college, path, etc until this point.
Normally I will try to start at 1st because it gives more opportunities to build the character. I put in more roleplaying in the first 3 levels and less combat to make up for the squishy low level characters.
I see starting at higher levels fine though. Sometimes the story requires more power. Fighting giants at 1st is a generally losing proposition. You can only scale things up so much before your players wonder why the giants sent orcs first instead of the fire giants.
That sort of thing just needs to start with higher levels. I had done that a lot when we would get the old modules. When my friend got i3 to i5 compiled modules we had to create at 5 or 6 level. Still had fun, but lost a little to the roleplaying aspect. That was our fault though. We could have put 8n more work, but this was playing in high school over weekends.
I would start at level 1 the first time you're running the game. It won't stay that way for very long anyway (it takes an average of 12 medium encounters to go from 1-2, and the same from 2-3. It takes 24 from 3-4).
Did he start at level 2 though?
Yes, that's where the show starts, on episode 1, the day all the characters meet, they are level 2. But very clearly from that episode, there were 3 groups of characters who already knew each other: Nott/Caleb, Molly/Yasha, and Jester/Fjord/Beau. Additionally, in the first scene with Jester, Fjord, and Beau (in the tavern), some townsfolk come in and give them a monetary reward for favors done for the town by that group. And that group also knew a couple of people from what appeared to have been a "previous adventure" they'd had in the town.
Now, maybe they just wrote that stuff out with Matt. But I always had the impression that he had done a private session with each group (kind of like three "session 0s") before the start, to get everything worked out and establish what they knew about each other. They would not have taped this, because the opening episode was, in part, about revealing "who is Sam going to play this season?" and so forth. And that would have been spoilers. And again, maybe they didn't do anything before the started episode 1... but I always had the impression that they'd done a 'level 1' session with Matt in smaller groups, and then he had leveled them to 2, and then they shot the 1st episode.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
With a new DM, or new Players ( even if only some of the Players are new ), I'd start with level 1. As Pantagruel666 points out, the first couple of levels don't last very long anyways.
With a seasoned table, I might skip ahead to level 3, as that's where a lot of interesting class abilities start to kick in, but that might be a lot for someone who is new to RPGs.
As a note, I don't think Matt Mercer started the current campaign at level 2 - but their first sessions were "off camera" individual/sub-group one-shot adventures. Even a one-shot like that is probably enough to boost a Character from level 1 to level 2.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I start campaigns at two levels in 5e- level 1 and level 3. Occasionally for an experienced group, I'll start higher if people want that. Let me explain why I do these two options:
Level 1- I start parties with first time players at level 1. I usually have players level up every session until level 3, when things slow down, unless the group is having difficulty learning mechanics and class features. Level 1 is pretty tedious for experienced players, but it keeps things mostly simple for first time players, with some classes still being quite involved. It generally helps newbies and you don't have to kill time there. That said, level 1 and 2 are kind of annoying to DM because player hit points are so low a bad toss of the dice knocks players into death saves, so I don't keep them there long.
Level 3- All classes have their archetypes by level 3, meaning that things are quite balanced. Level 1 and Level 2 tend to be skewed towards classes that have their archetypes, and it also means that some characters will start very generic. By starting at level 3, characters can already have their archetypes and be given appropriate backstories and designs. They're also usually durable enough to survive at least one bad roll, so that's easier to run without BS player deaths.
That said, if a group wants to do a high level campaign, I don't mind that, but only if they are already experienced. I usually wouldn't start any higher than level 10 for a campaign, but I'd do higher for one shots if people are interested. One of the problems with high level campaigns starting too high is that they tend to be theory crafted, and then you've made too many choices and can't adapt to the glaring flaws in practice. But, for veteran players, it can be fun to give these characters a spin.
If you're DM'ing for the first time, start at level 1. It's safer to do so, because DM'ing requires you to be familiar with your players' characters along with all the other things you need to know, and it's nice to be able to quickly review their characters. Just remember that enemies do a lot of damage relative to level 1 health point values, so don't swarm players too hard.
I start my campaigns at level 1. It lets the character develop from the beginning.
However, I completely understand starting at level 2. The reason to start at level 2 is simply the extra hit points (and some additional abilities). Level 1 characters are very vulnerable to random critical hits. If a character starts at 8 hit points (a wizard or sorcerer with 14 con for example), then they instantly die if they take enough damage to get to -8 hit points in one attack.An attack doing 16 hit points of damage would kill them instantly even if they are undamaged. If they have 2 hit points after taking some damage then 10 more hit points in one attack instantly kills them. It isn't much fun for most characters to have their character die and there are a lot of low level monsters that can do d8 + X of damage. A crit from one of these combined with a high damage roll kills the character.
However, the same level 2 character would have 14 hit points (taking the average on a d6 which is 4 hit points rounded up). With 14 starting hit points they have to go to -14 to instantly die. The attacker needs to do 28 hit points of damage in one hit to instantly kill the character. This is FAR less common when facing the typical tier 1 monsters even on a crit. Furthermore, even at 2 hit points they need to take 16 more to kill them. Instead of a regular hit killing them, it probably requires a crit with a good damage roll.
Anyway, the DM needs to be aware of how squishy first level characters are, present them with appropriate foes, and advance them to level 2 reasonably quickly so that they stand less chance of being instantly killed. I'd still start them at level 1 for the experience since it is fun to learn the character as you go along (and by 3rd level the characters have picked up a lot of abilities) but just be careful with the adventures you throw at them, let them see how risky it is.
They did start at 1, just did some stuff in their individual groups before the first show. Starting higher than 1 depends on the experience of your players. If they are new, absolutely level 1! If they have played multiple characters past multiple tiers and know the game well, then I would start at 3 at the highest. That is when classes really start getting their own flavor whereas level 1 and 2 is more about game mechanics and knowing how things work.
As a player, I like to start at level 1. I want to experience every experience point of my character.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
All my campaigns start at level 3: allows characters to enter more customized and powerful enough to fight tough things right away - making the fights more exciting!
For your first campaign, start at 1. It's easier to keep track of all the fiddly bits. And there are a LOT of fiddly bits in the game.
Starting at a higher level doesn't let the players get a feel for their character before making subclass choices. This is important for beginners.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I start my players at level 1 when it comes to long term campaigns. This gives them time to develop their characters and even grow more attached to them. I also feel that I am sort of cheating the players to some degree. Another thing that I like to do is start everyone at level 1 and then set up a one shot for each player in the campaign giving them a chance to develop their character that way without any other input. Actually fun to do. Yeah I know. Its only one level but a lot can happen in one level. With one shots levels can vary when not related to a main campaign.
From what I gathered, Matt Mercer had small pre-stream rounds with the players that started together (Nott + Caleb / Fjord + Beau + Jester / Yasha + Molly) bringing them to level 2 and forging the first bonds between the characters. So, that was something like a Session 0.5.
I for myself start with level 1 with the players, because I like to add the way to the Subclasses as part of the story for my players and roleplay their ascend to their specialization.
Oh and the standard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8&list=PLlUk42GiU2guNzWBzxn7hs8MaV7ELLCP_
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I've started my group at 1, 3 and 4 :P. I have preferred the higher level as it makes more sense for most of my characters backstory. I really don't get how a level 1 fighter has a background of a soldier for a decade but is still lv 1 ...
I wouldn't rule out starting them higher either - it depends on the story I want to tell. If I want them to go dragon slaying I'm not gonna start them at level 1 and wait 6 months for them to be ready!