This is more telling a story of the DM session last night.
The encounter of the Week: Idle Champions Presents: Hit and Abyss. The adventure text as written.
The water of the spring has been tainted with dark magic from the reactivated shrine above this area. Any creature that touches the water or that lingers in this area for 1 minute or more must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or be compelled to enter the pool and stay there for 1 round unless held back or hauled out by another creature.
Any creature that ends its turn in the pool must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or take 4 (1d8) necrotic damage and become cursed by the tainted water. While cursed, a creature uses its movement and action to randomly attack the nearest creatures, and gains the following additional action option:
Cursed Spew. The cursed creature hawks up a cloud of spittle at a creature within 15 feet of it. The target must succeed on a DC 12 Dexterity saving throw or take 4 (1d8) acid damage and have its speed reduced by 10 feet until the end of its next turn. The curse can be removed from a creature with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check, a protection from evil and good spell, a lesser restoration spell, or similar magic.
Avoiding the effect of the water is easily done if creatures move through the cavern quickly, and if any creatures affected by the water are physically dragged out of the area. Once a creature leaves this area, the compulsion ends.
Do you ever have that game where you almost TPK and not rolled a single dice? Well, that happened to me last night game session when three out of the 3rd level four-party members failed the two critical saving throws. (Two of the party was tainted by the water where a third had stayed in the room for over that one minute time.) The result was the three players beating the crap out of each other to the point where the fourth member who did his best to avoid the players, the room and the water was doing his best dragging eventual unconscious members to safety and using Potions and Medicine rolls to do his best to stablileze.
When the party was attacking each other I had the players make the rolls against one another based on my attack choices. That could have been a bad decision but I wanted to keep the players in the game and not have this dead time while I was rolling the whole battle. Things started to move fast and from my perspective, I could not do anything to influence the situation any more than keeping the lowest possible damage weapon or cantrip used so I was limited myself to shortswords and fire bolts. Even then it was not enough and I still fell all three. To top it all the players' death saves rolled were failing.
Have you been in that close call TPK, or is that not even a near TPK situation.
It was pretty scary because I felt powerless as a DM. Again, I could be wrong and I'm sure one of you all can give a "You could have done X!" or "Why not Y?" Oh, I should mention with the down party revived with quite a few HP back and the next room is the 'Boss' battle that is summoning dark magic so they are not even in a position or condition to move on without an odd played long rest somewhere else in the dungeon.
It is a very nasty trap for level 3s. The DCs are high and it requires wisdom, con and dex saves. No character typically has proficiency in more than one of these at level 3 (except variant human who took resilient). Modifiers for non-proficient saves would be 0 to +3 typically while proficient would be +2 to +5. This means that the initial DC15 save will be failed more than 1/2 the time by most characters. Maybe closer to 65 or 70% of the time depending on the party. The odds of having 2, 3 or even the whole party fail aren't bad at all. (Of course everyone could pass and it becomes a non-event but the odds are against it).
A typical 3rd level character will have around 25 hit points. It won't take that many rounds to kill them off between the d8 damage from the pool combined with their weapon attacks. The characters also have no way to escape the curse on their own. Once cursed, outside intervention is required to end it. Otherwise they just keep attacking their friends or stand in the pool until they die.
In addition, putting a trap like this right next to the boss battle means that the odds are good the characters would have to rest before going on if the trap goes badly.
From a play perspective, if everyone failed their saves, I would likely add the ability to make a save every turn against the curse. The players don't know the situation, they don't know the mechanics or what was originally written. The players only know what they are told so if the magic of the pool allows them a save every round in addition to a the medicine check and other options then I think that would help.
Finally, I've never liked the save or die mechanic from earlier versions of the game so I never had a TPK due to failed saves on a trap. The trick with this trap is that it isn't initially easy to see how deadly it can be for low level characters if they happen to be only a little unlucky.
I never would have thought to run the numbers like you did so that was a fascinating point of view looking at their percentage of failure for this trap. I may try that with other traps to get a feeling to see if it balances out well for the game to players.
If there is one thing that came from this was the last few days the players have been talking more about what they did and what could have changed on their end how they approached situations. They know this was a "We had no clue" situation and they reacted more than thinking out the situation. So that is a plus as they have a tendency to jump before thinking at times.
That trap sounds awful, in my opinion. Not only are the DCs quite high for a low level group (remember that the average character is not proficient in any given save more than half the time, and using standard array the highest ability bonus you can get at level 3 is +3, so even with proficiency that DC is only going to be met 50% or less of the time). Then a DC 14 save to avoid curse/damage is still going to be effective the majority of the time. The damage per turn potential is insane, too, because it includes 1d8 damage from the water (if the party member is in it at the end of their turn) and potentially damage from allied attacks, so even if you're not afflicted and are trying to help the party, you could get unlucky and get downed by a crit. This trap is designed, in my opinion, to TPK. Damage spreads across party members (by causing the afflicted to attack their allies or forcing party members who stick around to help to make difficult wisdom saves). Considering the party recommendation is *LEVEL 2*, given that the module scales up to more monsters in the end fight if your party is level 3 or higher, I would never run this trap at that level.
This trap falls into what I consider unfair game design. There are two reasons for this: player agency and balance.
This trap does not respect player agency. Compelling a player's actions does sometimes happen during gameplay, but usually it's done with a clear cause and a clear remedy. A command spell from an enemy caster or a cursed magic item are both examples of how this can happen. However, these usually only compel one party member at a time and both have clear sources and telegraphing (though cursed items might be a bit bait and switch sometimes). The really big danger of this trap is that there's no "out"- the party isn't given foreshadowing besides a bad smell (which shows up earlier and is not associated with this kind of trap), and if they fail a couple of checks, one of which requires touching the water and incurs the saving throw against the curse, they have no way to know that lingering here is a threat to their safety. That's right, the check to see if there is a trap triggers the trap. That's BS.
Then there's the whole "spend a minute in the room and get destroyed" bit. Out of combat time in 5e is something I rarely use because you can really debate the passage of time at the table. It feels arbitrary to say "you spent more than a minute here" unless you're in combat rounds (six seconds a turn) or the party tries to take a rest. Second, there's not one but two compulsion effects, both of which can affect (in theory) the entire party. Remembering that on average the party members *will* fail these checks, this means that each round you could easily expect half your party to be compelled by one or the other effect. A lot of traps like this balance it by saying "A creature that succeeds on their saving throw is immune to this effect until they complete a long rest/24 hours pass/etc." Additionally, there's no limit on the curse effect- while it can be broken by leaving the room, this is not a guaranteed scenario (given that your party may be entirely unconscious or dead in the room) and there's nothing to keep it from being reapplied should a creature be restored. A DC 15 medicine check, while not necessarily as cruel as a DC 15 saving throw, is still way too high for level 2/3 parties. Additionally, cursed characters *will* attack party members if they're not cured, so the medic is likely to go down. Lesser Restoration is a second level spell (not available to level 2 parties and likely not available to level 3 parties in any meaningful quantities) and Protection from Evil and Good is a single target concentration spell- you can protect one creature, but if you get hit that protection might drop, and you will get hit by your cursed teammates in all likelihood.
Now, there is the mitigating factor that in order to be really badly messed up by the trap, you would have to either touch the water or fail two consecutive saving throws, which means that the odds of saving against one or the other is somewhat higher. Again, though, this trap can only be detected using a check that involves triggering the trap (because that's fair, right?) and even if only one party member triggers it, the group might not realize that the one minute compulsion effect is in play- there's no way to notice it. It feels cheap to put players in a situation where they have almost no resources to deal with the setup and even their best options are likely to hurt them unless they just ignore the room. It teaches players *not* to interact with the environment and that's bad.
Moving on to balance, hoo boy do we have a stinker here. I've already talked about the saves a bit, but let's talk about that curse: The curse can be removed from a creature with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check, a protection from evil and good spell, a lesser restoration spell, or similar magic.
That's garbage. Let me tell you why that's garbage, and I did it a bit above, but let me do it again. This encounter is designed for level 2 characters. They don't have Lesser Restoration by default. It's a level 2 spell. A DC 15 medicine check is pretty hard at level 2 (again, standard array max bonus to wisdom, with a racial increase to 16/17, and proficiency means you'll only have +5 on the check!) and if you fail it you continue to get hit. Leaving the area removing the compulsion might make this seem balanced, but there's nothing to let your players know that and to be frank it feels like a cop out for an intentionally unbalanced encounter.
The party can move away to escape the effect, but that means, unless they go backwards, moving into an immediate combat encounter. Good luck recovering in a room full of enemies after you attacked each other for a couple turns. Now, most experienced parties will go backwards. This is not a module targeted at experienced parties. A bunch of new players may go up the stairs and get straight into a combat encounter which, while not too dangerous at a decent amount of resources, is definitely dangerous if you're beaten half to death. This cements the TPK. As a DM, I would just introduce a safe room and let the party rest a bit because TPKs suck, but again, if you're running a module you might not think to do that and it does certainly feel cheap to bring the party near to death and then just be like "Nah, fam, everything's good."
Finally, the damage output is way too high. 1d8 is certainly on the high end of reasonable damage for a trap, though it's certainly not insane. 1d8 and then a possible player attack per turn is, however, crazy. Assuming that party members hit half the time (+4 to attack and the level 2 party average AC is 14, which is not accurate but it's hypothetical) and do 1d4+2 damage per turn (again, low but not impossible), each party member is doing on average 2 points of damage per turn to a random party member once they're cursed. At level 2, the designed level for the encounter, you can expect HP ranges from 25 for a beefy barbarian (maxed out CON with standard array and a racial boost) to a pathetic 8 (Wizard with -1 CON modifier, which hopefully isn't a thing but it can happen). On a bad roll, 1d8 can straight up unconscious the wizard. On bad rolls, your average party member (the average is going to be closer to 15-20, fortunately) can take half their health instantly. On really bad rolls, your Barbarian, failing the save against the curse, is going to crit your Wizard with his great axe and kill him outright with massive damage. It leaves way too much up to chance. Now, forcing your characters to use cursed spew does limit the damage done by party members to each other to 1d8 per turn, which is fortunately much more reliably low. Still, this means that a player taking damage from the water and one other party member is taking 2d8 damage, which has the potential to incapacitate a squishy level 2 character. Now, at level 3, this is more manageable, but still high given that the party might lose their healing or mitigation characters to the curse. And, again, the party doesn't have enough information from the encounter to postulate a good solution without taking damage experimenting. Being able to spread the damage around constantly and not having recurring saves against the curse or permanent immunity upon a successful save makes it near impossible to have random recovery but very likely to have random incapacitation.
Long story short, it gives way too much potential for the dice to completely screw your party into a TPK. This trap is something I would always avoid or at least heavily nerf. Recurring saves against the curse each turn, immunity to the compulsion effect on a successful save, and more signs that the water is cursed (such as bubbles rising to the surface, or an ominous green tint) would make this less devastating, though I would still avoid it. I find that traps, unless they can be disarmed, don't really give players much benefit in D&D. There's no overcoming the obstacle, just avoiding it, and that makes it a frustrating experience if things go wrong and an interruption of flow even if things go right. Now, adding a statue to the room that is the source of the curse that could be destroyed to immediately dispel the curse and restore the room would be something that could give a cunning party some options, but even that could just be too complicated for the payoff. I think this trap room is just a misstep, and I would avoid running traps like it in the future. Generally, traps should be responsive to players- a trapped chest might detonate if the rogue tries to pick the lock without checking first, or a hallway might require an acrobatics check to move between swinging blades to reach the disarming lever on the other side- and not just an environmental effect that forces players to suffer. If there is an environmental trap, there should be foreshadowing- maybe 30 seconds in the room causes the players to feel light headed or nauseous, then they have to make a save if they do nothing. But this just feels cheap.
That was an excellent breakdown of the situation so I really appreciate your taking the time to write that all down. I trusted the module that while scaled options in combat that the DC for checks and saves are also scaled a reasonable challenge but seeing it in action became something much worse. You and David42 broke down the numbers and something I never considered looking deeper into so I may start breaking out the math as I go through published adventures.
You were also correct about the next steps since the 'boss' fight is coming up (thankfully they retreated to the entrance of this tainted spring than its exit so they have the option of backtracking and taking a rest, at least for spending hit dice to heal. If they decide to check out the 'boss' chamber at the exit of the tainted spring I'll have to change that up a little to give the impression the party has time to heal elsewhere and not have the Abyssal Caldron activated to open the portal.
All in all these five-part encounter series have been nice short adventure break for the players in between longer and more involved ones. This room was the first one that really knocked everyone for a loop, well the Gelatinous Cube room was tough but the Wizard has just learned the Familiar / Dragon's Breath combo so the group did short work of the cub after that. But I digress.
Again, thank you for the insight I really do appreciate it as it gave me something new to consider when I run adventures.
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This is more telling a story of the DM session last night.
The encounter of the Week: Idle Champions Presents: Hit and Abyss. The adventure text as written.
Do you ever have that game where you almost TPK and not rolled a single dice? Well, that happened to me last night game session when three out of the 3rd level four-party members failed the two critical saving throws. (Two of the party was tainted by the water where a third had stayed in the room for over that one minute time.) The result was the three players beating the crap out of each other to the point where the fourth member who did his best to avoid the players, the room and the water was doing his best dragging eventual unconscious members to safety and using Potions and Medicine rolls to do his best to stablileze.
When the party was attacking each other I had the players make the rolls against one another based on my attack choices. That could have been a bad decision but I wanted to keep the players in the game and not have this dead time while I was rolling the whole battle. Things started to move fast and from my perspective, I could not do anything to influence the situation any more than keeping the lowest possible damage weapon or cantrip used so I was limited myself to shortswords and fire bolts. Even then it was not enough and I still fell all three. To top it all the players' death saves rolled were failing.
Have you been in that close call TPK, or is that not even a near TPK situation.
It was pretty scary because I felt powerless as a DM. Again, I could be wrong and I'm sure one of you all can give a "You could have done X!" or "Why not Y?" Oh, I should mention with the down party revived with quite a few HP back and the next room is the 'Boss' battle that is summoning dark magic so they are not even in a position or condition to move on without an odd played long rest somewhere else in the dungeon.
Fun times with D&D.
It is a very nasty trap for level 3s. The DCs are high and it requires wisdom, con and dex saves. No character typically has proficiency in more than one of these at level 3 (except variant human who took resilient). Modifiers for non-proficient saves would be 0 to +3 typically while proficient would be +2 to +5. This means that the initial DC15 save will be failed more than 1/2 the time by most characters. Maybe closer to 65 or 70% of the time depending on the party. The odds of having 2, 3 or even the whole party fail aren't bad at all. (Of course everyone could pass and it becomes a non-event but the odds are against it).
A typical 3rd level character will have around 25 hit points. It won't take that many rounds to kill them off between the d8 damage from the pool combined with their weapon attacks. The characters also have no way to escape the curse on their own. Once cursed, outside intervention is required to end it. Otherwise they just keep attacking their friends or stand in the pool until they die.
In addition, putting a trap like this right next to the boss battle means that the odds are good the characters would have to rest before going on if the trap goes badly.
From a play perspective, if everyone failed their saves, I would likely add the ability to make a save every turn against the curse. The players don't know the situation, they don't know the mechanics or what was originally written. The players only know what they are told so if the magic of the pool allows them a save every round in addition to a the medicine check and other options then I think that would help.
Finally, I've never liked the save or die mechanic from earlier versions of the game so I never had a TPK due to failed saves on a trap. The trick with this trap is that it isn't initially easy to see how deadly it can be for low level characters if they happen to be only a little unlucky.
I never would have thought to run the numbers like you did so that was a fascinating point of view looking at their percentage of failure for this trap. I may try that with other traps to get a feeling to see if it balances out well for the game to players.
If there is one thing that came from this was the last few days the players have been talking more about what they did and what could have changed on their end how they approached situations. They know this was a "We had no clue" situation and they reacted more than thinking out the situation. So that is a plus as they have a tendency to jump before thinking at times.
That trap sounds awful, in my opinion. Not only are the DCs quite high for a low level group (remember that the average character is not proficient in any given save more than half the time, and using standard array the highest ability bonus you can get at level 3 is +3, so even with proficiency that DC is only going to be met 50% or less of the time). Then a DC 14 save to avoid curse/damage is still going to be effective the majority of the time. The damage per turn potential is insane, too, because it includes 1d8 damage from the water (if the party member is in it at the end of their turn) and potentially damage from allied attacks, so even if you're not afflicted and are trying to help the party, you could get unlucky and get downed by a crit. This trap is designed, in my opinion, to TPK. Damage spreads across party members (by causing the afflicted to attack their allies or forcing party members who stick around to help to make difficult wisdom saves). Considering the party recommendation is *LEVEL 2*, given that the module scales up to more monsters in the end fight if your party is level 3 or higher, I would never run this trap at that level.
This trap falls into what I consider unfair game design. There are two reasons for this: player agency and balance.
This trap does not respect player agency. Compelling a player's actions does sometimes happen during gameplay, but usually it's done with a clear cause and a clear remedy. A command spell from an enemy caster or a cursed magic item are both examples of how this can happen. However, these usually only compel one party member at a time and both have clear sources and telegraphing (though cursed items might be a bit bait and switch sometimes). The really big danger of this trap is that there's no "out"- the party isn't given foreshadowing besides a bad smell (which shows up earlier and is not associated with this kind of trap), and if they fail a couple of checks, one of which requires touching the water and incurs the saving throw against the curse, they have no way to know that lingering here is a threat to their safety. That's right, the check to see if there is a trap triggers the trap. That's BS.
Then there's the whole "spend a minute in the room and get destroyed" bit. Out of combat time in 5e is something I rarely use because you can really debate the passage of time at the table. It feels arbitrary to say "you spent more than a minute here" unless you're in combat rounds (six seconds a turn) or the party tries to take a rest. Second, there's not one but two compulsion effects, both of which can affect (in theory) the entire party. Remembering that on average the party members *will* fail these checks, this means that each round you could easily expect half your party to be compelled by one or the other effect. A lot of traps like this balance it by saying "A creature that succeeds on their saving throw is immune to this effect until they complete a long rest/24 hours pass/etc." Additionally, there's no limit on the curse effect- while it can be broken by leaving the room, this is not a guaranteed scenario (given that your party may be entirely unconscious or dead in the room) and there's nothing to keep it from being reapplied should a creature be restored. A DC 15 medicine check, while not necessarily as cruel as a DC 15 saving throw, is still way too high for level 2/3 parties. Additionally, cursed characters *will* attack party members if they're not cured, so the medic is likely to go down. Lesser Restoration is a second level spell (not available to level 2 parties and likely not available to level 3 parties in any meaningful quantities) and Protection from Evil and Good is a single target concentration spell- you can protect one creature, but if you get hit that protection might drop, and you will get hit by your cursed teammates in all likelihood.
Now, there is the mitigating factor that in order to be really badly messed up by the trap, you would have to either touch the water or fail two consecutive saving throws, which means that the odds of saving against one or the other is somewhat higher. Again, though, this trap can only be detected using a check that involves triggering the trap (because that's fair, right?) and even if only one party member triggers it, the group might not realize that the one minute compulsion effect is in play- there's no way to notice it. It feels cheap to put players in a situation where they have almost no resources to deal with the setup and even their best options are likely to hurt them unless they just ignore the room. It teaches players *not* to interact with the environment and that's bad.
Moving on to balance, hoo boy do we have a stinker here. I've already talked about the saves a bit, but let's talk about that curse: The curse can be removed from a creature with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check, a protection from evil and good spell, a lesser restoration spell, or similar magic.
That's garbage. Let me tell you why that's garbage, and I did it a bit above, but let me do it again. This encounter is designed for level 2 characters. They don't have Lesser Restoration by default. It's a level 2 spell. A DC 15 medicine check is pretty hard at level 2 (again, standard array max bonus to wisdom, with a racial increase to 16/17, and proficiency means you'll only have +5 on the check!) and if you fail it you continue to get hit. Leaving the area removing the compulsion might make this seem balanced, but there's nothing to let your players know that and to be frank it feels like a cop out for an intentionally unbalanced encounter.
The party can move away to escape the effect, but that means, unless they go backwards, moving into an immediate combat encounter. Good luck recovering in a room full of enemies after you attacked each other for a couple turns. Now, most experienced parties will go backwards. This is not a module targeted at experienced parties. A bunch of new players may go up the stairs and get straight into a combat encounter which, while not too dangerous at a decent amount of resources, is definitely dangerous if you're beaten half to death. This cements the TPK. As a DM, I would just introduce a safe room and let the party rest a bit because TPKs suck, but again, if you're running a module you might not think to do that and it does certainly feel cheap to bring the party near to death and then just be like "Nah, fam, everything's good."
Finally, the damage output is way too high. 1d8 is certainly on the high end of reasonable damage for a trap, though it's certainly not insane. 1d8 and then a possible player attack per turn is, however, crazy. Assuming that party members hit half the time (+4 to attack and the level 2 party average AC is 14, which is not accurate but it's hypothetical) and do 1d4+2 damage per turn (again, low but not impossible), each party member is doing on average 2 points of damage per turn to a random party member once they're cursed. At level 2, the designed level for the encounter, you can expect HP ranges from 25 for a beefy barbarian (maxed out CON with standard array and a racial boost) to a pathetic 8 (Wizard with -1 CON modifier, which hopefully isn't a thing but it can happen). On a bad roll, 1d8 can straight up unconscious the wizard. On bad rolls, your average party member (the average is going to be closer to 15-20, fortunately) can take half their health instantly. On really bad rolls, your Barbarian, failing the save against the curse, is going to crit your Wizard with his great axe and kill him outright with massive damage. It leaves way too much up to chance. Now, forcing your characters to use cursed spew does limit the damage done by party members to each other to 1d8 per turn, which is fortunately much more reliably low. Still, this means that a player taking damage from the water and one other party member is taking 2d8 damage, which has the potential to incapacitate a squishy level 2 character. Now, at level 3, this is more manageable, but still high given that the party might lose their healing or mitigation characters to the curse. And, again, the party doesn't have enough information from the encounter to postulate a good solution without taking damage experimenting. Being able to spread the damage around constantly and not having recurring saves against the curse or permanent immunity upon a successful save makes it near impossible to have random recovery but very likely to have random incapacitation.
Long story short, it gives way too much potential for the dice to completely screw your party into a TPK. This trap is something I would always avoid or at least heavily nerf. Recurring saves against the curse each turn, immunity to the compulsion effect on a successful save, and more signs that the water is cursed (such as bubbles rising to the surface, or an ominous green tint) would make this less devastating, though I would still avoid it. I find that traps, unless they can be disarmed, don't really give players much benefit in D&D. There's no overcoming the obstacle, just avoiding it, and that makes it a frustrating experience if things go wrong and an interruption of flow even if things go right. Now, adding a statue to the room that is the source of the curse that could be destroyed to immediately dispel the curse and restore the room would be something that could give a cunning party some options, but even that could just be too complicated for the payoff. I think this trap room is just a misstep, and I would avoid running traps like it in the future. Generally, traps should be responsive to players- a trapped chest might detonate if the rogue tries to pick the lock without checking first, or a hallway might require an acrobatics check to move between swinging blades to reach the disarming lever on the other side- and not just an environmental effect that forces players to suffer. If there is an environmental trap, there should be foreshadowing- maybe 30 seconds in the room causes the players to feel light headed or nauseous, then they have to make a save if they do nothing. But this just feels cheap.
Wow! So SquireZed tell me what you really think?
That was an excellent breakdown of the situation so I really appreciate your taking the time to write that all down. I trusted the module that while scaled options in combat that the DC for checks and saves are also scaled a reasonable challenge but seeing it in action became something much worse. You and David42 broke down the numbers and something I never considered looking deeper into so I may start breaking out the math as I go through published adventures.
You were also correct about the next steps since the 'boss' fight is coming up (thankfully they retreated to the entrance of this tainted spring than its exit so they have the option of backtracking and taking a rest, at least for spending hit dice to heal. If they decide to check out the 'boss' chamber at the exit of the tainted spring I'll have to change that up a little to give the impression the party has time to heal elsewhere and not have the Abyssal Caldron activated to open the portal.
All in all these five-part encounter series have been nice short adventure break for the players in between longer and more involved ones. This room was the first one that really knocked everyone for a loop, well the Gelatinous Cube room was tough but the Wizard has just learned the Familiar / Dragon's Breath combo so the group did short work of the cub after that. But I digress.
Again, thank you for the insight I really do appreciate it as it gave me something new to consider when I run adventures.